New Regs?

[willyfahey]

Laportian, your comparison is not entirely accurate. The Wisconsin resident has to follow their rules on their side of the border. There by, the 2 fisherman are not fishing the same body of water as is the case with the tribes and sport anglers at Mille Lacs sharing the entirety of the lake. In addition, either would be able to fish according to the others' state laws by buying a license for that area (equal opportunity). So, there is a race based difference here. Sport anglers and Natives are not afforded equal opportunity. The treaty may give the Natives the right but it is still a race based divide. I think it's a disservice to our Constitution that the courts did not address this in their judgement. Natives are legal US citizens (they were not US citizens until 1924) and the same laws should apply to all citizens. Their racial privilege should be ruled illegal. Since the treaty's signing, there has been a change in the law regarding racial inequality and citizenship and those changes should hold precedence over the treaty. I know that case is being made and, hopefully, it makes it to the courts.

[laportian]

willyfahey- I think that is a real stretch there. I doubt that the high courts would rule in favor of quashing our treaty rights. You have to understand that America has a hard time admitting to its sins. There was a concerted effort , with US Indian policy, for a genocide. The reservations were meant to concentrate us, America wanted us to die there. And we almost did. By the turn of the last century we were on the brink, dam near wiped off the map. But any ways concentrating us on these reservations actually saved us and we started breeding. And now in this day and age of right and left, liberals and conservatives, yins and yangs; you will never see anything like you speak of happen. White liberals love them an Indian. Conservative republicans on the other hand would rather finish us off. Funny how 80% of republicans are white males.

[Bandersnatch]

Funny how 80% of republicans are white males.

I find that last sentence just a bit racist, political or not.

[Getanet]

Gallup polls show nearly 90% of republicans are white. Sexists perhaps. I'm sure white females account for a decent percent of Republicans.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160373/democrats-racially-diverse-republicans-mostly-white.aspx

[mrklean]

I think it's a disservice to our Constitution that the courts did not address this in their judgement. Natives are legal US citizens (they were not US citizens until 1924) and the same laws should apply to all citizens. Their racial privilege should be ruled illegal. Since the treaty's signing, there has been a change in the law regarding racial inequality and citizenship and those changes should hold precedence over the treaty. I know that case is being made and, hopefully, it makes it to the courts.

Keep drinking that Fellegy Kool-Aid

[willyfahey]

My intention is not to dispute what has happened in the past, right or wrong. Your reply does not address the issue I raise : that there is a race of US citizen that does not have to follow the same rule of law as the rest. If Native people did not claim US citizenship and all of the benefits afforded as a result then I would not hold issue. The law should hold true for all American citizens. Yet when on the reservation, then US rule of law would not apply. To your point, the Supreme Court has gotten quite a bit more conservative since the last ruling. They seem to be in the mood for overruling quite a few previous decisions....

[ozzie]

I agree that if the people that are claiming treaty rights and their sovernty from our country then how can these same people be voting for our president and not have to follow the same rules?

I base this statement that I was informed that the "Band" members also have the right to vote for the president of the USA...

[laportian]

We have a dual citizenship to both the U.S.A. and to our tribes. The rules we follow are set for ourselves just as a state can. Our being separate was a result of the govt. treating us as individual sovereign nations. These treaties trump state law. It is not any different than one state have legalized pot, or gay marriage, casinos. We have only been afforded the same rights as full citizens in the last 90 years. Not all at once either. Some limited citizenship was granted in the 1920's and again in the 1940's. My grandfathers were both in the Army in WWII and neither were citizens when they joined. The U.S. then came up Termination in the 50's and some tribes lost federal recognition. They also brought on the relocation era where the BIA moved natives from their reservations to large metro areas where they thought they would assimilate. My paternal grandparents were relocated from Red Lake to Dallas. They went home after about a year. In the 60's through the 80's there was widespread forced sterilization at the hands of the Indian Health Service. Sucky govt. policy huh? In 1978 the American Indian Freedom of Religion Act was passed so they it was legal for us to openly practice our religions. That same year the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed. It made it possible for people to stop taking our children from us. During most of this several generations of our children were taken from us totally against our will. My mother and her grandmother were taken away from their parents. Kind of a crappy govt. policy wasn't it. To have your children removed for no other reason other than we were Indian. Do you see why we want to hold onto what we have left?

[BrdHunter01]

My grandfathers were both in the Army in WWII and neither were citizens when they joined. The U.S. then came up Termination in the 50's and some tribes lost federal recognition. They also brought on the relocation era where the BIA moved natives from their reservations to large metro areas where they thought they would assimilate. My paternal grandparents were relocated from Red Lake to Dallas. They went home after about a year. In the 60's through the 80's there was widespread forced sterilization at the hands of the Indian Health Service. Sucky govt. policy huh? In 1978 the American Indian Freedom of Religion Act was passed so they it was legal for us to openly practice our religions. That same year the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed. It made it possible for people to stop taking our children from us. During most of this several generations of our children were taken from us totally against our will. My mother and her grandmother were taken away from their parents. Kind of a crappy govt. policy wasn't it. To have your children removed for no other reason other than we were Indian. Do you see why we want to hold onto what we have left?

Sounds 'almost' the same as netting thousands of pounds of walleyes

Good thing you have that left

[thatoneguy]

Quote:

Conservative republicans on the other hand would rather finish us off.

Statements like that are just as bad as some of the junk BrdHunter and others post. I'm a conservative (well, libertarian more than Republican) and I've spent most of my adult life working in economic development and education in tribal communities.

Please - everyone - try not to paint with too broad a brush.

[maxpower17]

And how does a treaty affect Mille Lacs again? I forgot.

This is like having a climate change discussion.

[walleye18]

Laportian...your a funny guy!

You never answered the question - What makes you better than me? - especially given that your a US citizen like me.

Nonetheless, try to answer this one......Given the Mille Lacs walleye management issues at hand, why did the issues arise on this body of water when the native americans started netting and spearing on this lake? This is really pretty much fact...look at the history of the lake when it all began.

I look forward to your reply.

Take care Buddy!

[CaptainMusky]

Mille lacs history of poor walleye populations cycle up and down over decades. Many years ago when I was a kid it was the "dead sea". Everyone called it that. There was no netting or regs on the lake at that time either.

[Gordie]

Mille lacs history of poor walleye populations cycle up and down over decades. Many years ago when I was a kid it was the "dead sea". Everyone called it that. There was no netting or regs on the lake at that time either.

Exactly and that was before slots and everyone and their brother had a LCD graph with GPS capabilities and 40K plus boats to find the walleyes. I have said it before and will say it over and over the slots are what is killing this lake, because it makes everyone fight for the same size fish. Did anyone ever think that making it easier to find and catch fish would make it like it is today.

[bobbymalone]

Funny how 80% of republicans are white males.

[GravelBar]

OH MAN!!! did you luck out!!!

(me too!)

Just over three years ago I went in for a Bi-Femoral Aortic By-Pass.

Suppose to be a 1 1/5 hour operation to replace the lower Aorta to get blood back to my legs.

When they opened me up they found an Aneurism that would have burst in a year or so, and all kinds of other "issues".

The surgeon called in his partner to assist at that point.

They ran a Garden Hose into me for blood, removed my spleen, did repairs over 5 1/5 hours, and 15 units of blood later (the human body only contains between 10 and 12 units) an a couple of Re-Starts, I was on the road to three weeks in ICU and another in general before I Got To Couch.

As with you, I'm living every one of them, and they aren't taking me out without sending in the SWAT Team!!

Luck to ya!!

[Fowlmouth]

A decent amount of biggots on these boards.. But thats a whole other discussion.

To say one group of people i.e. native american are responsible for the decline of mille lacs is just plain dumb. Their harvest weight is figured into the yearly harvest limit which is less than the total weight for hook and line. It was mentioned by walleye18 that the decline in mille lacs started when netting began, it would be interesting to see the total number of logged fishing hours per year since netting began. Just a guess but i'm sure the hook and line pressure and hours has risen yearly with the popularity of the big pond.. which would also effect the lake. To just say one group is responsible is just an excuse to pass the blame. Maybe it's time to start looking in the mirror..

[Bandersnatch]

80% of NBA players are black dudes. Is that racist?

Depends on context IMO.

If you are simply stating the above? Doubtful.

If you tack it on to the end of: Most of the crimes that are being committed in the city are done by Blacks. 80% of NBA players are Black.

Then probably.

[walleye18]

Captain Musky and Fowlmouth...

I have fished the lake since 1979 and have never had a bad year nor seen the lake in the stste it is now. I have guided on it many days...it was a gem of a lake!

The downturn and "drop off" of the lake coincided with the netting and spearing.

Just telling it like it is.

[CaptainMusky]

Doh Kay will take your word for it over the others like myself who fished it during many of the same years.

I won't disagree that it may be historically bad right now but its not like there haven't been issues in the past.

[Fowlmouth]

Captain Musky and Fowlmouth...

I have fished the lake since 1979 and have never had a bad year nor seen the lake in the stste it is now. I have guided on it many days...it was a gem of a lake!

The downturn and "drop off" of the lake coincided with the netting and spearing.

Just telling it like it is.

Never said it wasnt a great lake way back in the day.. All i'm saying is to blame netting for the down turn is ridiculous. The lake has become more and more popular as years go by and in turn fishing pressure goes up. In turn the fish population takes a hit. It's a combination of factors causing this but in your mind all it is a bigot mind set, like many have on here.

[DaMoose]

I don't see how anyone can buy the argument that the decline in the lake is from the natives netting and spearing. The native quota is and I believe has always been about one-third that of the state anglers. The nets are designed to catch the same size fish as the slot limits. Now as far as the band members being allowed to keep ten fish without any slot limit, this will only lead them to reach their quota faster, thus ending their season. Without the slot limits this should also help the imbalance in the size of the walleyes left in the lake. Now all of the studies that have been done show that this issue is not currently do to a lack of walleye fry being produced, but due to the fry not making it to even the yearling stage. Thus indicating that netting during the spawn is not the main cause of the decline. It doesn't necessarily help the situation at this point, in my opinion. So maybe, just maybe the safe harvest limits being set as quotas and the size of the fish that the slots and the nets are both targeting were never all that safe. Especially with 98 percent of the harvest coming from the same size fish. I believe that the decline has had many contributing factors, but the netting and spearing is far from the main cause of the decline. You may say that the slots were only implemented because of the netting and spearing, I am calling bull on that. Look at all of the lakes where there is no netting or spearing allowed, that have had slots implemented on them in this same time frame. I personally believe that the walleye season should have been closed to everyone for at least two years. The resorts will lose some money, but maybe they could promote the great northern, muskie, and bass fisheries. Then the walleye population should improve fast enough to limit the bleeding of the resort economy. This is just my 20 bucks worth.

[MN Musky]

At this point shouldn't everything be done to promote and protect the spawn? Whether it be protecting the habitat or actual seasonal "act". I do not understand why anyone, nets or otherwise, should be allowed to disrupt or target spawning walleye. Seems foolish. If the fry is having difficulty making it to adulthood. Would it not make sense to promote a more successful spawn, thus more fry and probability more making it through the gauntlet to adulthood. Not all fish spawn. Not all are successful even when they do. Leave them be. Whether self imposed or the DNR pulling out the conservation card. Get the nets out during the spawn. The DNR has made their case time and time again about "protecting spawners" is essential (hence the season). More successful spawn = more fry = more chance at "recruitment".

[BrdHunter01]

Mille lacs history of poor walleye populations cycle up and down over decades. Many years ago when I was a kid it was the "dead sea". Everyone called it that. There was no netting or regs on the lake at that time either.

There were still plenty of walleyes in the lake when it was the "dead sea." It was due to an explosion of bait fish, not due to the lack of walleyes.

[Gordie]

Quote:

There were still plenty of walleyes in the lake when it was the "dead sea." It was due to an explosion of bait fish, not due to the lack of walleyes

Hmmm now we have an explosion of BIG fish and a explosion of bait fish... sound familiar makes for tough fishing.

[loadmaster]

The total 2013 tribal kill was 15,501 pounds, according to the DNR. That was well below the tribal allocation of 70,000 pounds and the lowest take since 1997. But it’s a similar number to the 2014 quota of 17,100 pounds.

Of the total non-tribal take of 145,862 pounds in 2013, actual fish kept by anglers was estimated at 83,169 pounds. The remaining 62,693 pounds was attributed to hooking mortality.

Found these numbers to be interesting.. The hooking mortality vs netting pounds.

The whole article can be found Twin Cities. com Pioneer Press dated 31 Jan 2-14.

[Bandersnatch]

At this point shouldn't everything be done to promote and protect the spawn? Whether it be protecting the habitat or actual seasonal "act". I do not understand why anyone, nets or otherwise, should be allowed to disrupt or target spawning walleye. Seems foolish. If the fry is having difficulty making it to adulthood. Would it not make sense to promote a more successful spawn, thus more fry and probability more making it through the gauntlet to adulthood. Not all fish spawn. Not all are successful even when they do. Leave them be. Whether self imposed or the DNR pulling out the conservation card. Get the nets out during the spawn. The DNR has made their case time and time again about "protecting spawners" is essential (hence the season). More successful spawn = more fry = more chance at "recruitment".

Musky let me start off with this is not personal, or directed at you!

That said. "Let Them Spawn" is the Kool-Aid Argument.

It doesn't matter if you kill a fish in June, November, January, March, or during the spawn. That fish is not there to spawn. Period.

“Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler.”

Albert Einstein

[MN Musky]

Not kool aid.

I think you have a flawed argument. Not every fish spawns. Kill them in june you dont know if you are killing a spawner or not. Target them actively spawning and the is a higher probability. Disruption of the spawning grounds, scaring fish away, preventing the spawn, etc. seems foolish. How could it not effect the success of the spawn. The him vs me bullsnot should not influence common sense. Again, how could it not effect a successful spawn? Why cant the nets go in later?

The state is already doing this, we cant angle during the spawn. But go ahead and dismiss this as kool aid. It is a productive tactic at promoting the "its everything else" agenda. Many factors have created this mess, but to ignore the timing of the harvest is foolish.

I am working from the idea that flooding the lake with walleye fry by allowing an uninterrupted spawn can't hurt the problem.

[Bandersnatch]

Not kool aid.

I think you have a flawed argument. Not every fish spawns. Kill them in june you dont know if you are killing a spawner or not. Target them actively spawning and the is a higher probability. Disruption of the spawning grounds, scaring fish away, preventing the spawn, etc. seems foolish. How could it not effect the success of the spawn. The him vs me bullsnot should not influence common sense. Again, how could it not effect a successful spawn? Why cant the nets go in later?

The state is already doing this, we cant angle during the spawn. But go ahead and dismiss this as kool aid. It is a productive tactic at promoting the "its everything else" agenda. Many factors have created this mess, but to ignore the timing of the harvest is foolish.

I am working from the idea that flooding the lake with walleye fry by allowing an uninterrupted spawn can't hurt the problem.

Is it Cherry or Grape?

My point is that it is Everything.

Unfortunate that others would see it as "its everything else".

(or maybe myopically as ""just the one thing")

[MN Musky]

Ok. So you agree an uninterrupted spawn would be beneficial. BTW, I like Canadian Club not grape or cherry.