RED LAKE WALLEYE

[bturck]

sitting here having coffee and thinking about our recent trip to Red Lake. a thought came to mind, occasionally i have those, about how this lake has turned into one of the premier walleye lakes in the state if not the premier lake. in he past 4 years we have had the pleasure of catching some really nice fish. this all came about due to a joint effort of the Native tribe, DNR and i;m sure a tremendous amount of input from the outfitters and guides.....so my thought is why can't this type of cooperation be garnered by the Mille Lacs band and other interested parties on that once great walleye hatchery? maybe i should have posted this in the mille lacs forum, however considering the success that Red lake has had i opted to pt it here. certainly no intent to start an argument pro or con. it just seems that if success can be measured by what has taken place on Red it would only make sense to loo at those results....enough for now coffee getting cold...stay safe my friends

[gunner55]

I have been wondering the same thing for a while.I think your comment about "joint effort" has a lot to do with.The people of/on URL were mostly of the same opinion,on ML the DNR has even admitted they're not sure what to do.

[Barbelboy]

There are probably many things that could be done. But to truly replicate URL you'd have to severly limit access to 82% of the lake with only Mille Lacs band members able to hook and line subsistance fish.

This would create huge sanctuary areas. Which would probably result in a corresponding increase in fish populations.

But in the end I think they are completely different lakes and the DNR is managing both as best as they know how.

[muskiemanAD]

Until it crashes and hits rock bottom nothing will be done. They will blame it on Muskies, Bass and zebra mussels. But give it another year of resorts closing and when the Casino starts to loose money due to lack of customers then something with substance will be done. Until then people will drive around it to fish better waters.....

[Stcloudangler]

I don't think that casino will feel any effects from the walleye population, the demographic that visits there are generally 80% non-fishertypes....

It is a totally different ecosystem, with its own set of problems. There has been a big perch explosion in Mille Lacs that could theoretically help the young walleye, by getting the muskie/smallmouth off their backs.

The DNR has to take a look in the mirror on that situation, and probably do some backroom deals with the Natives to help cut the predator population down some to help the situation.

[laportian]

Too many people have a stake in the Mille Lacs issue. Meaning Mille Lacs is a metro lake. They managed it to be very diverse, add in the invasives, throw climate change in, throw a few million anglers, throw in tibal fishing rights. They have too many things to bow to there. Red Lake is basically a one trick pony-Walleyes! It was easy to throw a moratorium and stock it for a few years. Too different scenarios.

[muskiemanAD]

Or you just cut your losses and make it a even more premiere Muskie lake by stocking more fish, it is stocked at a very low rate. Then promote the world class Smallmouth fishing even more and manage it for that. Hope that these young Perch grow up and promote that. Granted it wouldn't be a world class Walleye lake but there would be a large diversity of world class fishing. When the DNR hires a outside source to look at the issues I think they realize it will never be the same as it was, they just want to confirm those beliefs....

[gunner55]

+ 1 that's the point I was trying to make & until they can get some sort of agreement between the different groups the lake is probably going to suffer.

[magic_minnow]

the demographic that visits there are generally 80% non-fishertypes....

/quote]

True...but a 20% loss in any business can be devastating. exmple 20% of 50 million is 10mil. I know I wouldn't want to lose 10mil. Let us take a moment of silence for ML........

[bturck]

thanks for all the replies. very true..two different water systems, and as laportian stated to many different entities. sure would be nice to see a solution....but as mentioned very difficult when trying to work with that many.

hats off to all who made it happen on Red, what a wonderful testament to cooperation

[N C F F GAS]

its too close to St.Paul

[cps2009]

its too close to St.Paul

+1

Mille Lacs has too many opinions on what should or should not be done to the lake. Whether you're a walleye, muskie, or smallmouth person, first thing that needs to be addressed is the netting procedures in place with the tribe. If they want to be able to net fish and return to their ancestral roots, then they should have to use birch canoes and paddles along with nets made from trees....or they can catch their fish like the rest of humanity, from a boat with a line and lure. Until we get this established, there is no way to know how outside angling pressure affects the lake. Also, why are they able to net in the spring when they are taking out the reproducing walleyes? There is a lot of city pressure on mille lacs, but when 1/3 of the harvest is right away in the spring from netting, there is no possible way that this can't affect a lake whether is mille lacs or not.

[laportian]

CPS2009-Telling me to go net in a birchbark canoe is about silly. Im so sure. Grow up.

But anyhow yeah the biologist are telling us that the young of year aren't making it. Its a predation problem. The walleyes produce plenty enough to replenish the lake they just aren't getting past the first year.

[CaptainMusky]

The native Americans will use their birch bark canoes the same time you ditch your graphite rods, thousand dollar GPS units and 30,000 boat.

Netting isn't the sole cause for the issue in mille lacs and getting rid of it wouldn't immediately fix it either.

Multiple complex factors and drastic changes are likely.

[thatoneguy]

hey cps2009 - you point out that the netting harvest is only 1/3 of the total taken from the lake. do you have any data on how many of the fish taken/killed by anglers spawn in future years?

hint: it's zero percent. because of they're dead, just like the netted fish.

as always, I will recommend that everyone read David Treuer's most excellent book "Rez Life," especially the part that deals with netting. But read the whole thing. Good book.

[fishgutz77]

You mean hats off the the tax payers of Minnesota then don't you?

Let' recap this. The Band over nets the lake and decimates it.

The crappie pop explodes

The tax payer takes 41 million fry that could have went to other lakes and dumps

them in Red.

the walleye come back and wail on the crappies.

and now it's turned back into a great fishery.

So by cooperation I'm left to think that we had any choice other than to ask the Band for it's ok to drop 41 mill fry into the lake. How very cooperative of them. I'm glad the lake is in good shape considering it's lake type, but baffled by your concept ot cooperation.

[laportian]

Gutz- It was very cooperative of them. The locals from both sides of this lake got together and put aside a lot of difference with one goal in mind. To get the walleye back. Everyone had choice in it. The band and the state could have got into a peeing match and nothing would have ben accomplished. Bad attitudes did not prevail. The lake is better for it.

[gunner55]

+1 & I'm afraid it might take too long before this type of cooperation is seen on ML.

[FlyRodAddiction]

Hey Bill, once again good point. I put my ice castle on Clearwater this year, i'm not catching walleye hand over fist but I am keeping some walleye for dinner table! It would be nice to see "the big pond" return to it's former glory sometime in the next 10 years! I for one wouldn't mind putting my fish house out there again. For now, i'm doing my part staying clear of there unless fishing for crappie.

[fishgutz77]

Agreed the lake is better for it.

[bturck]

howdy jeff. i haven't seen any report from a trip to LOW so wasn't sure if you were still chasin em or not. clearwater can put out some good fish at times. used to chase crappies here in my runnin and gunnin days days. good luck

[Michael L]

Too many people have a stake in the Mille Lacs issue. Meaning Mille Lacs is a metro lake. They managed it to be very diverse, add in the invasives, throw climate change in, throw a few million anglers, throw in tibal fishing rights. They have too many things to bow to there. Red Lake is basically a one trick pony-Walleyes! It was easy to throw a moratorium and stock it for a few years. Too different scenarios.

Spot on, I couldn't agree more.

[RiverChuckNorris]

hey cps2009 - you point out that the netting harvest is only 1/3 of the total taken from the lake. do you have any data on how many of the fish taken/killed by anglers spawn in future years?

hint: it's zero percent. because of they're dead, just like the netted fish.

as always, I will recommend that everyone read David Treuer's most excellent book "Rez Life," especially the part that deals with netting. But read the whole thing. Good book.

Suppose a farmer has 4 cows and 1 bull. If the farmer slaughters all 4 cows when they're pregnant, how many head of cattle will he have next year? 1 Bull.

Now, suppose that same farmer allowed the cows to give birth and then took the 4 cows to slaughter. How many would he have left next year? 5 (the Bull and the 4 calves)

Final exam: Suppose that farmer allowed the 4 to give birth AND only slaughtered 2 of the 4. His heard would grow exponentially year over year. (crowd gasps!!)

[bturck]

riverchuck: i am assuming this is a non-castrated bull......just clarifying........good analogy...

[BrdHunter01]

Suppose a farmer has 4 cows and 1 bull. If the farmer slaughters all 4 cows when they're pregnant, how many head of cattle will he have next year? 1 Bull.

Now, suppose that same farmer allowed the cows to give birth and then took the 4 cows to slaughter. How many would he have left next year? 5 (the Bull and the 4 calves)

Final exam: Suppose that farmer allowed the 4 to give birth AND only slaughtered 2 of the 4. His heard would grow exponentially year over year. (crowd gasps!!)

Ding Ding!

Ill start by sayin I fish Red early ice and maybe one additional weekend in the winter. I've fished Mille Lacs regularly in open water for over 20 years.

One problem Mille Lacs has (aside from the netting, because we all know that's a problem) is to many big fish. Walleyes, northerns, Muskie, Bass. If you remember back from 07' - 10' or so Mille Lacs was dinaminte! Just like Red right now. Mille Lacs was plump with walleyes under 20"

Fast foreword: the slot stayed the same. All those "eater" sized fish grew to the protected slot. Northerns, Muskie, and Bass became heavily protected. The young walleyes and perch simply don't have a chance right now

The Walleyes came back in Red and have since decimated the Crappie population. If these eater sized fish survive to 20" and continue to be protected I could see the same fate for Red. Not to mention the natives are netting again and northerns are unreasonably protected. I hope it doesn't happen. Just some food for thought (no pun intended)

[cps2009]

CPS2009-Telling me to go net in a birchbark canoe is about silly. Im so sure. Grow up.

But anyhow yeah the biologist are telling us that the young of year aren't making it. Its a predation problem. The walleyes produce plenty enough to replenish the lake they just aren't getting past the first year.

Where is the evidence that the walleyes reproduce enough to replenish the lake? I agree with you that there is a huge predation problem on the lake right now, but gill netting walleyes in the spring does nothing but harm to a lake that is on very fragile ground right now. The DNR has screwed up the lake just as bad as the netting procedures have, and we are all paying for it. I'm assuming lapotian that you are a member of a tribe, and am only trying to understand the theory behind netting fish, what is the exact purpose? What are the netted walleye used for and are they re sold on the market place?

[CaptainMusky]

riverchuck: i am assuming this is a non-castrated bull......just clarifying........good analogy...

In that case it wouldnt be a bull it would be a steer.

[LABS4ME]

Ding Ding!

The Walleyes came back in Red and have since decimated the Crappie population. If these eater sized fish survive to 20" and continue to be protected I could see the same fate for Red. Not to mention the natives are netting again and northerns are unreasonably protected. I hope it doesn't happen. Just some food for thought (no pun intended)

waleyes decimeated the crappie? Based on what knowledge? The crappies on Red need the stars and moon to line up along with a good dose of fairy dust to ever pull off a successful spawn on Red. The two biggest spawns by crappies were pulled off during the crappie boom years, pre-walleye, they were bigger than the year classes we were fishing, and yet Mother Nature doomed them without the aid of predator fish plucking them off. They do not on a consistant basis have the right weather to pull off successful spawns. Tough long winters in shallow water with a later than avg spawn date, are the big hurdles they have.... they do have competiton from walleys for forage, but the crappie was always a second tier fish in the lake before the walleye crash and so they've become agan. They just hit it right in terms of spawning and filled an available 'hole' in the eco system of the lake during the crash.

Good Luck!

Ken

[willyfahey]

Ill start by sayin I fish Red early ice and maybe one additional weekend in the winter. I've fished Mille Lacs regularly in open water for over 20 years.

One problem Mille Lacs has (aside from the netting, because we all know that's a problem) is to many big fish. Walleyes, northerns, Muskie, Bass. If you remember back from 07' - 10' or so Mille Lacs was dinaminte! Just like Red right now. Mille Lacs was plump with walleyes under 20"

Fast foreword: the slot stayed the same. All those "eater" sized fish grew to the protected slot. Northerns, Muskie, and Bass became heavily protected. The young walleyes and perch simply don't have a chance right now

The Walleyes came back in Red and have since decimated the Crappie population. If these eater sized fish survive to 20" and continue to be protected I could see the same fate for Red. Not to mention the natives are netting again and northerns are unreasonably protected. I hope it doesn't happen. Just some food for thought (no pun intended)

Agreed.

[laportian]

cps2009- Here is an old post of mine that I copied. Maybe it'll explain my take on things a little better:#2227612 - 03/23/10

"I stumbled across this thread earlier this week and I can't stop thinking about it. I am a native fisherman. I spend at least 2 days on the lakes fishing each week. I figure I will put a 100 days on the water this year. And out of those hundred I will actually be tossing a net or two out about a dozen times this season. Why? Because it is my culture, it is who I am, and because I can. I read alot of posts from people who seem to want us to get on with our lives and that they are having to pay for stuff that happened generations ago. No, you are not paying for anything and you are not suffering. This is what has me thinking so hard about this subject. I am very passionate about the plight of my people. The atrocities that were done to my people are still felt by people of my generation and will still be felt for many generations to come. The term for it is called intergenerational trauma or historical trauma. These terms were first coined to describe the children and grandchildren of holocost survivors. Trauma that is carried or passed down through generations. It is estimated that there were 18 million natives inhabiting this continent when columbus arrived in the 1400's and by the year 1900 our population was down to 1 million. Systematic genocide. My known verbal history begins at this time. My great grandmother was born in 1898 and she told me our history. Her children, including my grandmother, were forcebly taken from her in the 1920's by the U.S. govt. and forced to go catholic boarding schools. There at boarding school they took their language and culture from them. My grandmother and her sisters were sexually abused they were also beaten if they were caught speaking their language. These young ladies came back to the rez and started having kids. They were ill equiped to be parents. These traumas were passed down to us. As were my great grandparents handed down their parents and grandparents trauma. So you see when I slip my boat out on Winnie or Leech and I am going out to set net to gather fish for a ceremony, feast, or wake I am doing so with my heart filled with alot of pride because through all that my people have been through I am still here. I am Anishinabe(Ojibwe)and I still fish the waters that my grandfathers fished before me.

I know this post will probably cause a few nasty tirades on the subject but I thought maybe you guys would like to hear it from the otherside. It is sad that so many people are intolerant of different cultures."

A young man froze to death in one of our communities over the holidays. They found his body last week. His aunt came to me and requested walleye for his wake. So tonight I prepared enough walleye to feed 150 people who attended this wake. We said prayers, drummed and sang, then we feasted. In our culture we feast for ones journey into the next world. It is part of our traditions. That is why I netted those walleyes.