Lowering our Low Expectations

[SmellEsox]

Yeah, its good to have multiple spots, but it is a shame that we have so much awesome deer habitat w/ few deer in it.

[Bear55]

I do kind of wonder if those boom years of the early 2000's spoiled us a bit. You could pretty much shoot a deer anywhere back then, now it takes a little more hard work/skill to be consistent. Have to admit I didn't know what scouting was growing up, the old man just walked in the woods and picked a spot. That was your one and only stand for the rest of your life for the better or worse. Glad I decided to learn a little on my own and spend a lot more time in the woods.

Now if you are talking more mature buck hunting well that is a whole new ballgame. They don't live everywhere and even someone with hundreds of acres might be out of luck. You either need to be in an area that holds a lot of them because the pressure is low or most hunters in the area let them go. Your other option is to grow them on your land by passing them but this isn't always easy, even if you own a section that buck will spend a lot of time off your land and you need to catch him during shooting hours. The last and most difficult option is to actually go after them on their terms, which often means searching/scouting a ton of land year in and year out to find a nice buck or two. I have some nice chunks of public land by my home, problem is those deer are highly pressured so there sits a couple thousand acres that I don't even bother hunting because it rarely holds large deer. If you are hunting the same old ground year after year and never see anything big, don't blame the dnr blame yourself for hunting the same place year after year.

[Musky Buck]

I agree smell it's why I'm adding deer stand 10 11 and 12 this winter, one of the dozen should produce. I'm adding them because of pressure from other hunters, the varying degree of where the deer are each November, it keeps me ahead of the game, well at least not behind the game. I'm also only after larger bucks, if I was content with any deer 2 stands would do. Mature bucks in my area are very good at avoiding boxes on stilts and wide shooting lanes, they've been around the block a time or two, it's why I have 0 of them, it's why buck number 29 went down this year. Completely agree with you Bear55, you bet people got spoiled big time, everyones poll was full of deer, then zone 4 went to 2 adding days, all can musket hunt, timberwolves moved in, archery hunting exploded in the area, farmers plowed everything black during the worst winter of the last 5, winters are a dump shoot and wallah, we have lower deer numbers why is anyone surprised in old zone 4 at least my area of it, entire wintering herds in places no longer exist, knew 1 of my areas was real thin on deer when I couldn't find a shed or a track even in a swamp that held a wintering herd for the 40+ years I've been alive. It only takes the 1 right deer to make your season. I'm no dummy I hunt alone 75% of the time, the more smell pressure I feel lessens my odds at the mature buck. Now I'm ramping up for next year when most have turkey and dressing on their minds I'm fixing, clearing, analyzing what I missed during season so next fall it's game time and I'm ready. I do want to up my odds the best I can to hunt for the biggest narliest buck in the places I hunt. Some years the deer just win out.

[PurpleFloyd]

How many hunters in MN know what a browse line is?

Heck, lots of posters on this forum son't know what pleonasm is either but that doesn't stop them from posting on the forum again.

[Gordie]

If everyone shot a deer then what would happen? Your expectation would be at its lowest!

[nonteepical]

If you are hunting the same old ground year after year and never see anything big, don't blame the dnr blame yourself for hunting the same place year after year.

I do everything i can on my 100 acres of land to benefit wildlife,deer in particular, so when the DNR puts out to many tags for years, and uneducated (stupid)hunters kill as many deer that the DNR allows (when the deer population dosen't justify the tags) so they can "fill out", your saying I'm to blame, and i should sell my property and scout for new land and hope the neighbors are conservation minded?

The DNR needs new management practices, they don't have a clue how many deer there are, they go off of 5-10 year old population surveys and try to make a educated guess from there, they need to listen to the hunters more (beyond sending an email), every district should have public input meetings yearly, deer, ducks,birds and fish open subject matter pertaining to that district managers area. Bucks and does need to be managed, you can't have no doe permits in an area, and have the deer harvest bucks only and not manage the bucks being killed, especially when we hunt the peak of the rut.

[TruthWalleyes]

ever try hunting somewhere else?

[nonteepical]

It went over your head. you shouldn't have to travel all over the state year after year looking for good hunting and waiting for the deer herd to improve, especially when you buy hunting property.thats most hunters dream is to have their own land to hunt.

I hunted zone 1, 1000's of public land acres for 30+ years and when you aren't seeing deer, or sign of a nice buck you have the luxury of moving around, when you are on a hundred acres with property lines and neighbors, your limited, and at the mercy of the DNR's deer management and neighbors hunting practices of always trying to take the maximum deer they can.

[PurpleFloyd]

It went over your head.

I hunted zone 1, 1000's of public land acres for 30+ years and when you aren't seeing deer, or sign of a nice buck you have the luxury of moving around, when you are on a hundred acres with property lines and neighbors, your limited, and at the mercy of the DNR's deer management and neighbors hunting practices of always trying to take the maximum deer they can.

Please do me a favor and explain the uneducated, stupid hunter comment.

[PurpleFloyd]

when you are on a hundred acres with property lines and neighbors, your limited, and at the mercy of the DNR's deer management and neighbors hunting practices of always trying to take the maximum deer they can.

I hate to break it to you but this is America and I find the idea that you want to have the government dictate what other people do on their property to be rather offensive. I just hope that you never have a PETA member buy a plot next to you and try to dictate that you don't hunt at all on your 100 because they don't have the same beliefs as you do.

[nonteepical]

They think because a tag is available that it's supposed to be filled so they can have the maximum amount of deer they can even if the deer numbers don't justify it. I hunt the southern border of 240 it's managed this year because the northern part, 40 miles away, has a higher population, the other side of the road of my property is 213 wich is HC, in other words their aren't many deer in this area of 240 to justify a managed tag, it's been low the past 5-6 years but because a tag is available uneducated (maybe i should call them casual) hunters will try to fill those tags with every deer that wonders by, making the deer recovery slower. their choices affects all the landowners in the immediate area.

[nonteepical]

So you see no difference in people trying to ban hunting all together vs. managing a recource. thats uneducated hunter mentality right there.

[flipper]

I think you need to take a break from hunting if it puts you in such a bad mood. Sort of defeats the purpose, eh? An educated person might conclude that there is much more to hunting than scoring that big rack or even making a kill for that matter.

[Gordie]

Because you don't shoot a deer on Your 100 acres(property) that there is know deer left in the state or the DNR should some how mange deer so that you get all the deer.

that's land owner mentality right there.

You do what ever you have to get deer/wildlife into your property and if it doesn't happen then everyone else hears the little boy that is crying wolf.

I use to have 40 acres of property solely for deer hunting up around the Hackensack area and also hunted state land near by. I shot a lot of deer off my property and I didn't try and force the issue with trying to get wildlife to it, if the deer were not present it was time to find state land that did.

Its a tough situation to own a chunk of land and not be able to enjoy it like you planned, but it does happen.

Take for instance if you owned a cabin on a lake and the fishing was great but then something happened and the fishing was at its worst. would you go to another lake to fish or float around searching for fish that you know are not there?

I know its maybe a bad analogy ,but its really not a bad analogy.

BTW when the DNR imposed those intensive limits that you talk of how many tags did you fill?

I have heard other guys from different areas that complain about this too, and they were stacking the deer in the freezer during those seasons too.

[nonteepical]

LOL! if it was all about the kill we wouldn'nt be passing deer, including passing in hopes it may make it through the season(buck or doe)so there's some for next year, all because there is a group of hunters that think because it's a deer it has to be dead.

[Scott K]

They think because a tag is available that it's supposed to be filled so they can have the maximum amount of deer they can even if the deer numbers don't justify it. I hunt the southern border of 240 it's managed this year because the northern part, 40 miles away, has a higher population, the other side of the road of my property is 213 wich is HC, in other words their aren't many deer in this area of 240 to justify a managed tag, it's been low the past 5-6 years but because a tag is available uneducated (maybe i should call them casual) hunters will try to fill those tags with every deer that wonders by, making the deer recovery slower. their choices affects all the landowners in the immediate area.

How dare them legal hunters shoot them deer. They should leave them alone, and dont shoot them, so their racks can grow big, and you can shoot them.

And you wonder why APR guys have a bad name? When you simply display it is all about "me" and what I want. How dare them other hunters legally take a deer, when that will prevent "you" from getting your trophy deer. Good grief

[nonteepical]

OH and I have no problem with people filling tags if the numbers support it, but you have to survey your area and make a detertmination if it can support it, if it can fine,if not tweak it, don't go by the DNR.

[nonteepical]

I never once in the post you highlighted mentioned APR,trophy or buck.It's over your head to.

[Scott K]

Not over my head. I own land, I do everything I can legally to get deer on to my land. Some years my crew does very well, some years my party gets a couple smaller deer. But then I drive past the neighbors, and they all have several deer hanging, from small ones, to big ones.

And not one time, have I thought the neighbors were wrongfully shooting deer, or shooting more then they should. In fact, when I see several hanging in their posts, it makes me feel good, that there is still a lot of deer in the area. They just didnt happen to walk past my party when out in the woods. Now if my party didnt see much for deer, and none of the neighbors did either, then I would be concerned. But if the neighbors are getting theirs, and I am not, that tells me I need to improve my land so the deer will want to hang out in my land more.

[Wanderer]

I hate to break it to you but this is America and I find the idea that you want to have the government dictate what other people do on their property to be rather offensive.

Then you must be offended ALL OVER the place. Just think about how much the government dictates what we do with our property right down to building codes, DOH well cerifications, and wetland management just to throw out a few across a broad spectrum of control. Wow.

Now add: Wild game does not belong to the property owner - game is a public resource.

I get to go on my first gun hunt for the year this weekend back to the land I've been bowhunting this fall. It used to be one of those places where you just had to be awake to see a deer. Yes, the boom days that once were are now over. The news this year is one group in the valley has taken on the "Fill every tag for every legal hunter that we can fit on the land" mentality and now people aren't seeing much for deer anymore. One group of three spent the entire week of the A season hunting to see three deer and harvest two. The neighboring landowner took his Grandson out and got skunked. Simply unheard of. I have my two tags but will feel fortuate to fill one and am REALLY thinking about not taking another doe from whats left of the herd.

YES! We've already started looking for new land in the area to hunt rather than stick it out on the same property we've been happy with for 20 years. Maybe we find something better; maybe its yours?

The "I want" card is being played by EVERYONE, not just the APR crowd.

Good luck Gents.

[PurpleFloyd]

So you see no difference in people trying to ban hunting all together vs. managing a recource. thats uneducated hunter mentality right there.

Well, It's good to see you make sure to post with class when debating fellow hunters who may not see things the same as you do. It really does wonders for helping others see your point of view. And as long as we are talking about being educated it is spelled resource and that's has an apostrophe. But I digress.

If you fail to understand that making it legal to shoot a deer with 7 points but not with 8 isn't really managing a resource for any biologically sound reason but rather for personal satisfaction reasons then I would look very hard in the mirror next time one steps in front of you.

[PurpleFloyd]

Now add: Wild game does not belong to the property owner - game is a public resource.

Bingo- Thanks for taking the pitch. Now quit carping about the guy who shoots the deer this year that you wanted to shoot next year. Next.

[slimngrizzly]

Take for instance if you owned a cabin on a lake and the fishing was great but then something happened and the fishing was at its worst. would you go to another lake to fish or float around searching for fish that you know are not there?

I know its maybe a bad analogy ,but its really not a bad analogy.

This is not a bad analogy at all and I think you are very correct.... BUT if the lake isn't producing because of factors like no natural reproduction, poor water quality, stocking efforts aren't taking, etc. then we really cant complain... HOWEVER if the fishing is no longer good, and you need to find another lake, because the game laws allowed the overharvest of all the fish.... then I think you have a right to be a little upset at the mismanagement that caused the problem!

If they lowered the fish limits to prevent overharvest I bet youd be ok with it... but do it with a deer and OH GEEZ, "but its LEGAL", "dont limit our opportunities", its tradition!

Manage, no matter what it takes, for a diverse age population. It can be a win-win for everyone.

Gordie, I know you love those big cats... Truth, you love getting them big sturgeon... I dont blame you! But what if everyone started to take to all the small ones and you never really caught any anymore because THEY WERENT THERE! Would you be upset that the agency who manages the resource let it come to that? I KNOW YOU WOULD.... AND YOU SHOULD!

I guess thats how it is to me... Im not trying to be a complainer about how bad MN is... im trying to express how GREAT I know it could be!! If you think its good now, IMAGINE IT EVEN BETTER!

[Wanderer]

+1 Slim.

Bingo- Thanks for taking the pitch. Now quit carping about the guy who shoots the deer this year that you wanted to shoot next year. Next.

Taking the pitch? Nice try. I am carping about the guy who over shoots the herd like they're riding a train through a herd of buffalo. How many times do we have to learn that lesson?

I'll say again, I'm less Pro-APR than I am Anti-Anti-APR. What I really am is Pro-Management for better outcomes. And yeah, that means not having a Voruca Salt attitude about public resources.

I DO believe Sportsmen were the first true conservationists and the future is in our hands. Moderation and sustainability will benefit everyone in the long run. It's like saving for retirement.

I'm done with my Honey Nut Cheerios now and am off to work - its as much time as I'm willing to waste on this anymore. Go ahead and bash my views all you want while trying win this unwinnable argument. As long as you feel good about it, thats all that matters.

[Gordie]

Manage, no matter what it takes, for a diverse age population. It can be a win-win for everyone.

The problem with this is everyone has a different idea on how to manage and no matter what how its done or not done not everyone will be happy. So its not always a win, win for everyone.

[JIvers]

The problem with this is everyone has a different idea on how to manage and no matter what how its done or not done not everyone will be happy. So its not always a win, win for everyone.

Again, this.

One example of why this debate will never end is because there is no way "meat-hunters" and grain farmers--who, like it or not, also have a say in this discussion--will ever agree on the proper number of deer in any agricultural area.

[MUSKY18]

Here is a good article from a couple years back, but given the situation of deer hunting in MN, I doubt that any of this information has changed that much.

MN Deer Hunting

Lots of interesting facts, such as 87 percent of bucks in MN never make it past 2 1/2 years old. Only 2.5% of hunters are from out state. Compare that to Iowa which is at 19%That right there means Minnesotans are destroying Minnesotas deer herd. Although the article is written about the economical effects, it hits a lot of good points.

My carpool buddy was telling me on the way to work this morning that he was in a wedding with a guy who lives in South Central MN. So far this year, his party has shot 29 deer and are planning on taking more during the muzzy season. Their goal is to wipe out as many deer as possible cause they eat his corn fields. That mentality is no worse than herding them up to take to a slaughter house. Just plain stupid in my opinion.

[TruthWalleyes]

Nonteepical reminds me of a lake minnetonka lakeshore owner in the summer.

....Now i get why you are so into APR, you can't seem to take a step off your 100 acres, which is probably bad land anyway. I can't help but laugh thinking of you sitting on your 100 each and every year, grinding your teeth together everytime you hear a neighbor shoot.

Have you thought about building a high fence and making your own herd of superior deer? Maybe there is a government grant for horn porn.

[TRZ II]

I just want to know when did everyone have an easy time shooting a mature buck??? The 50's or 60's or earlier? You guys must be really old! The early 00's were great hunting years for does and spikes and "meat" it was easy to shoot deer but still very difficult to shoot mature trophy bucks. I have been able to shoot a very nice mature buck 3 of the past 4 years because I'm a much better hunter than I was 10 years ago. I hunt the same areas and never even seen mature bucks in the "hayday" of MN hunting. Get out and hunt! Learn the sport and you will get nicer bucks, they are there!

[PurpleFloyd]

Take for instance if you owned a cabin on a lake and the fishing was great but then something happened and the fishing was at its worst. would you go to another lake to fish or float around searching for fish that you know are not there?

I know its maybe a bad analogy ,but its really not a bad analogy.