APR 2013?

[96trigger]

Quote:

I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.

Classy statement! Done with this thread.

[flipper]

Classy, Why? Does the truth hurt? I'm not making assumptions because I know who did it. I thought you wanted to know what those against APR were hunting for and why.

[thatoneguy]

Quote:

How many of you know of people that have taken forks? Surely they know that shooting those bucks should be taboo

Why on earth should that be taboo? There are as many different reasons for hunting as there are hunters. Not everyone is into antler p0rn; some hunt for meat, some hunt for sport, some hunt to get away from the insanity of the modern world, and et cetera.

There is absolutely nothing inherently better about managing for trophy bucks and nothing inherently worse about shooting a deer that suits you, whether it's a spike or a doe or a monster buck.

Quote:

I suppose now you come back and say that its your right to shoot whatever you want. OK I get it, but again, here is the circle of argument, shooting whatever you want, holds up the progress a growing number of people are trying to make

Progress? Maybe according to a small cadre of trophy hunters. If that's what you're into, pool your money with some like-minded citizens and buy some hunting acreage. Build food plots, add minerals, harvest selectively, and have a grand old time. But don't assume that most hunters need or want anything remotely like that.

what really rubs me is the way trophy elitists talk down to fellow hunters about shooting little bucks. it's all over this thread. at one point i was the same way, then i thought 'what the he77 is wrong with me?' i stopped worrying about what anyone else chose to shoot and got back to flat out enjoying time in the woods for the reasons i chose to be there.

Amen.

[tfran123]

Since you want to know 96Trigger, the Truth is I am a doe shooter. I am not embarassed to say I haven't shot a buck but my boys have shot a few of them. Last year I was after one with a really nice rack that was on my land. I could never get close enough to it. I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.

Now I'm laughing, thanks for that. Wow.

[SmellEsox]

Why is it so awful to change management to satisfy all hunters, not just those that want to get an adequate amount of meat? Is it more important to manage the deer to satisfy the guy who likes the status quo? Should the elitists (not sure which group this applies to, meat hunters or trophy hunters. Seems they both look down their noses at each other) not count? Is the meat hunting group a more noble group than those who would like to see more bigger bucks in the woods? Where should the compromise be between APR guy and meat/status quo guy? Right now there seems to be a lot of hunters unsatisfied with the status quo. Should they not count?

[flipper]

Maybe they should learn that there is more to happiness than a big rack.

[PurpleFloyd]

OK Mr. Floyd, how would you "educate" other hunters to get them to pass on young bucks? I'm curious.

[tfran123]

Most of what you say is on point, would agree with you regarding your first comments relative to "healthier", I'd rather say better balanced. That would be accurate. Otherwise you guys are nitpicking on some subtle matters where it's all in the context. Carry on, hard topic to get agreement on.

[psepuncher]

Anyone can kill a legal buck in the MN APR zones, even if the buck isn't fully mature, or even if their antlers aren't fully developed if that makes sense.

The purpose was to promote an older class of bucks but.....

It's only 4 to a side, so I'm wondering what age will a buck in most cases, develop a set of headgear that meet the restriction criteria?

And if I read somewhere correctly, there's a couple more adoptive APR zones now? ones with 3 to a side restrictions?

What age class bucks are we really talking about being legal to take?

[PurpleFloyd]

Why is it so awful to change management to satisfy all hunters, not just those that want to get an adequate amount of meat? Is it more important to manage the deer to satisfy the guy who likes the status quo? Should the elitists (not sure which group this applies to, meat hunters or trophy hunters. Seems they both look down their noses at each other) not count? Is the meat hunting group a more noble group than those who would like to see more bigger bucks in the woods? Where should the compromise be between APR guy and meat/status quo guy? Right now there seems to be a lot of hunters unsatisfied with the status quo. Should they not count?

[Jameson]

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Now, as you can clearly read the problems they were having in the south were totally different from what I know to be the reality in my area....

The problem stated in your quote is the same as in much of MN, "the problems — all of the bucks were yearlings (1.5 years old)"

We may have different regs and terrain, but same results, most of our yearling bucks get shot each year.

[tfran123]

Yep, just drive home on Sunday night of opener from the north country and look at all the spikes and forks harvested, it isn't rocket science. A friend of mine as a long timer at the DNR and he also states a 4.5 + year old buck is a rare animal in this state - doesn't help that we center our opener at around peak rut and also allow party hunting.

This isn't a Southern Mn problem only, it's a statewide issue (baring a few remote areas on the very north. Some don't care about it, some do, and that is where our differences sit, period.

Watching ODN pictures does NOTHING to prove a point, sampling is waaay to small to matter and there isn't anyone that doesn't believe there aren't mature bucks in every county - there are.

[PurpleFloyd]

...

Now, as you can clearly read the problems they were having in the south were totally different from what I know to be the reality in my area....

[HandGunner]

if i cant shoot any buck i will shoot all the doe's... because i guess they must think 2 bucks can make more babys, Isnt this like telling a fisherman to not keep a bass full of eggs but in the end either way its always been hard for ppl to break our measily 8 pound record simply because MN cant create a bigger bass or just have not been found so why bother trying to set rules

didnt 2 of the 200 gross score deer come from the south MN last year?

Whatever nothing I can do anymore, why didnt I vote and go to the hearings in the south 300 zones to talk about the issue? I dont know maybe because I live 3 hours away, all I know is theres a small group who wants this goes to vote for it and the past 3 years of this APR I have just been meeting more and more unhappy hunters at the registration stations with just the one legal 8 point or one doe in the truck from weeks of hunting. Atleast I save time not having to talk with other hunters and check out eachothers harvest and chitchat about the hunt, because there is no hunt anymore, If its a set rule I'll probobly find a new area APR free or quit and just get into reloading and benchrest shooting than waste my money trying to hunt, my past season tags are still nice and squiky clean though

[HandGunner]

wait a sec how was it like on this topic before the APR was even braught up as an idea or anything? when it was all just lottery doe or buck managed one buck and doe or 2 doe, intensive one buck 4 doe or 5 doe.... nothing more to the rule than just that what were ppl saying then?

[MUSKY18]

Let me ask this question to all the Anti-APR people then.

When the DNR was holding its meetings in regards to the keeping the APR in place, where was everyone? Certainly from the number of posts on here stating that the majority of hunters in 3A and 3B are totally against APR, getting it reversed shouldn't have been a problem. The DNR held public meetings, and heck, if you couldn't make it to the public meetings, you could go online and fill out the survey. The masses had the ability to change the APR, however, it seems the masses stayed home and now the result isn't what they like.

I hunt for big racks, but more than that, I hunt for MATURE bucks. Chastise me all you want, but the bottom line is its my choice. You wanna shoot fawns and be happy, that's your choice and if you are happy, then great. I am teaching my son to look at deer and hopefully he will be able to tell if the doe/buck is mature. Doesn't really matter for him, as this will be his first year hunting and no matter what deer he shoots, I can't wait to see the look on his face. I don't care if he shoots a 4 inch spike, just being there with him will be the best hunting experience in my life. After he shoots his first couple of deer, then he will be held to the same standards as everyone else in my hunting party. Nothing but mature deer. Now does that make us "elitist"? I guess if that's what you want to tag me with, then go right ahead, it bothers me not.

[HandGunner]

so your saying you will let your kid shoot watever he wants then just drop the bomb on him and say hey now you can only shoot what I want you to..... what if the first deer he sees in his life he can just never pull the trigger at one? would you force him to shoot an animal? what if he just wants to shoot whatever he wants never agrees with your mature deer rule? do you want what he wants to be a happy hunter or force your own rules on him?

just saying it was a good question for me now that I have my first child on the way, a anti hunter asked me this, what if your kid just cant shoot an animal? but hey it is my kid to grow up like daddy right

[PurpleFloyd]

I hunt for big racks, but more than that, I hunt for MATURE bucks. Chastise me all you want, but the bottom line is its my choice.

Nobody is chastising anyone for shooting big deer. That is your choice and my guess is you will be hard pressed to find anyone who says you shouldn't.

Just make sure you understand that not everyone has the same goals as you and be sure to extend to them the same courtesy that you want extended to you.

As far as going to meetings, At this point if they keep it to zone 3 that is fine with me and I have no problem with that zone doing it. If they have meetings in this area I will certainly attend.

[MUSKY18]

Yes he can shoot whatever he wants until he is 16, then he shoots only mature deer. Those are the rules of hunting camp, he is aware of them and understands why it is this way. It doesn't matter if the first deer that walks in front of him is a doe fawn or 180 inch 12 pointer. It is his choice as to shoot it if he wants. Once he hits 16, then he falls into the "mature deer rule" just like the rest of us "elders" at deer camp. This has been the way of deer camp since I started going in 1996 when I got back from the service. Every kid that starts coming to camp follows the same rules and we have never had a problem with that.

Purple......I completely understand that not everyone has the same goals as me. I'm fine with that too. As I stated above, our camp has the rules that you can shoot whatever you'd like until you are 16, then you follow the mature deer rule. Trophies are in the eye of the beholder, and if my son's first deer is a doe fawn, then I'm 100% happy for him. If hunters like to take younger deer, that's on them and if they are happy about it, who am I to complain about that? I'm someone who HATES labels, so saying I'm an elitist for wanting to shoot big deer yanks my chain. First and foremost, we are all HUNTERS, although we all don't have the same goals for harvesting a deer, that shouldn't matter. Not everyone likes chocolate cake either. I think its more important to keep the legacy of hunters and hunting alive than it is to worry about what deer you harvest. Not sure if that makes a whole lot of sense, but it did in my little brain!

[tfran123]

Yes he can shoot whatever he wants until he is 16, then he shoots only mature deer. Those are the rules of hunting camp, he is aware of them and understands why it is this way. It doesn't matter if the first deer that walks in front of him is a doe fawn or 180 inch 12 pointer. It is his choice as to shoot it if he wants. Once he hits 16, then he falls into the "mature deer rule" just like the rest of us "elders" at deer camp. This has been the way of deer camp since I started going in 1996 when I got back from the service. Every kid that starts coming to camp follows the same rules and we have never had a problem with that.

Purple......I completely understand that not everyone has the same goals as me. I'm fine with that too. As I stated above, our camp has the rules that you can shoot whatever you'd like until you are 16, then you follow the mature deer rule. Trophies are in the eye of the beholder, and if my son's first deer is a doe fawn, then I'm 100% happy for him. If hunters like to take younger deer, that's on them and if they are happy about it, who am I to complain about that? I'm someone who HATES labels, so saying I'm an elitist for wanting to shoot big deer yanks my chain. First and foremost, we are all HUNTERS, although we all don't have the same goals for harvesting a deer, that shouldn't matter. Not everyone likes chocolate cake either. I think its more important to keep the legacy of hunters and hunting alive than it is to worry about what deer you harvest. Not sure if that makes a whole lot of sense, but it did in my little brain!

We do the same and also open it back up for our older guys, they can shoot what they'd like. Amazing results when you start letting some of the younger stuff go. Have a great season!

[PurpleFloyd]

Purple......I completely understand that not everyone has the same goals as me. I'm fine with that too. As I stated above, our camp has the rules that you can shoot whatever you'd like until you are 16, then you follow the mature deer rule. Trophies are in the eye of the beholder, and if my son's first deer is a doe fawn, then I'm 100% happy for him. If hunters like to take younger deer, that's on them and if they are happy about it, who am I to complain about that? I'm someone who HATES labels, so saying I'm an elitist for wanting to shoot big deer yanks my chain. First and foremost, we are all HUNTERS, although we all don't have the same goals for harvesting a deer, that shouldn't matter. Not everyone likes chocolate cake either. I think its more important to keep the legacy of hunters and hunting alive than it is to worry about what deer you harvest. Not sure if that makes a whole lot of sense, but it did in my little brain!

Agreed.

I think we as hunters are better sorting that out on our own than having the government mandate the change. Looks like you are doing it the right way.

[PEATMOSS]

+1

Nice to hear about people doing things their own way and enjoying the results. I'm particularly happy to see a couple posts by people that can do their own thing and not somehow find the need to whine about their neighbors.

Nice job guys.

[SmellEsox]

Purple and Handgunner, I am an APR supporter, but you bring up a great point. APR increases pressure on antlerless deer which is not a good thing in areas where DNR is trying to increase deer populations. It would actually do the exact opposite. It would decrease deer populations. I've argued that you cannot put them on in areas with lower deer populations. In fact, I'm not sure you'd see great results in the northeast big woods either. Too many other mortality factors with winter and wolves. That and I believe age structure is probably less of an issue there due to less hunting pressure. However, I do think they would be effective all along the transition zone, especially in central MN along the I94 corridor or the Hwy 10 corridor. Hunting pressure is very high there and it is some of the best deer habitat in the state.

[Jameson]

No worries, we have a doe lottery to protect from too much doe harvest.

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Just like we should have a buck lottery in some areas.

[SmellEsox]

Jameson, if you limit doe harvest and buck harvest you will have a lot of angry hunters and APR will get a black eye and you won't be able to institute it anywhere. In other words, not enough people will be putting venny in the freezer.

[candiru]

Jameson, if you limit doe harvest and buck harvest you will have a lot of angry hunters and APR will get a black eye and you won't be able to institute it anywhere. In other words, not enough people will be putting venny in the freezer.

Put venison in the freezer? Some wouldn't even be able to go hunting.

[tfran123]

Jameson, if you limit doe harvest and buck harvest you will have a lot of angry hunters and APR will get a black eye and you won't be able to institute it anywhere. In other words, not enough people will be putting venny in the freezer.

Most of PA is APR, not sure how they do it but I'm sure a solution exists. Nothing is perfect, that much I know for sure.

[TruthWalleyes]

Put venison in the freezer? Some wouldn't even be able to go hunting.

This would never happen as the DNR needs these license sales to fund the majority of DNR. Whatever the DNR does in the future, it will not be with the intent to reduce deer tags.

[nonteepical]

APR and doe harvest have nothing to do with each other. Doe harvest is for population control and buck doe ratio. APR will work in any terrain in the world as long as a whitetail(or any other antlered game)calls it home. APR's only function is to let the majority of yearlings reach their second birthday and has nothing to do with does.

[PurpleFloyd]

Jameson, if you limit doe harvest and buck harvest you will have a lot of angry hunters and APR will get a black eye and you won't be able to institute it anywhere. In other words, not enough people will be putting venny in the freezer.