APR 2013?

[SmellEsox]

BLACKJACK, here are my thoughts on this. I live in Little Falls and hunt in 221 and 215 quite a bit. In 2011 prefawn population estimates were in the 10-11 deer/sq mi area. This is prime deer country on the transition between ag and forest. Great productive deer habitat. How many of those 10-11 deer are bucks and does? 60:40 does to bucks? Probably. So there are 6 or 7 does and 4 or 5 bucks in there. Now, how many of those are yearling deer? No doubt the majority. So you have 2 or 3 adult does and, if you are lucky, maybe one 2.5 year old buck in your group of 4 or 5 bucks. The rest are yearlings. There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity? It absolutely is not possible to allow hunters to basically kill every deer they see (221 is 5 deer again this year!) and still produce mature deer. Yes a few big deer get killed every year in every county. But to say that a guy can just hunt harder/scout harder and find a big deer to hunt is not something that can be done on any kind of consistent basis. The guys I know that consistently kill bigger deer either 1) own a big chunk of land, or 2) have permission on a nice chunk of land along Camp Ripley. Permission on these lands is very tight. I've tried.

[SmellEsox]

BTW, unless the DNR increased their population goals for 215 and 221, there is no way APR could possibly be instituted in these management zones. There aren't nearly enough deer there to keep all hunters happy. So I'm really barking up a dead dogs rear end unless populations are allowed to increase significantly. Hard to let that happen with high commodity prices.

BTW, some of the figures in my last post were pulled out of thin air. LOL! But they seem logical to me.

[TruthWalleyes]

The last 4-5 years i have flat out seen 2-3x as many deer in a lottery zone (295 & 238) than i have in the magical APR land where i do the majority of my hunting (347/348). I would love to see 295/238 go to hunters choice.

There is also TONS of public management land in 295/238 and i hunt the thickest cattails where 99% of people avoid. 347/348 is heavily wooded (In areas) and that could be why i see much less deer over there. There is also next to NO public land.

Granted, i'm completely satisfied with my daily numbers of deer seen ranging from 3-60 per day. I think there was 1 day last year (Hunted 20) where i didn't see a single deer. I still don't get how the lottery zones 238/295 only give out a combined 300 doe tags when i've seen 300 does herded up on the last day of muzzleloader season.

I'm very selective on pulling the trigger, don't need horn regulations, and don't care what my neighbors shoot as long as they aren't shooting at me..

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

[mntatonka]

The last 4-5 years i have flat out seen 2-3x as many deer in a lottery zone (295 & 238) than i have in the magical APR land where i do the majority of my hunting (347/348). I would love to see 295/238 go to hunters choice.

There is also TONS of public management land in 295/238 and i hunt the thickest cattails where 99% of people avoid. 347/348 is heavily wooded (In areas) and that could be why i see much less deer over there. There is also next to NO public land.

Granted, i'm completely satisfied with my daily numbers of deer seen ranging from 3-60 per day. I think there was 1 day last year (Hunted 20) where i didn't see a single deer. I still don't get how the lottery zones 238/295 only give out a combined 300 doe tags when i've seen 300 does herded up on the last day of muzzleloader season.

I'm very selective on pulling the trigger, don't need horn regulations, and don't care what my neighbors shoot as long as they aren't shooting at me..

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

It's only the loud ones down here complaining about not having big enough antlers, the majority of us are perfectly happy in our little corner of the state, and are happy to keep quiet about it so people don't come in buying up land and forcing us out of our hunting areas.

[PurpleFloyd]

So there are 500,000 hunters and the success rate is 33% according to the above stats. 30 % of 500,000 is 150,000 and 33% success rate equals about 50,000 deer. The deer herd is estimated to be 1 Million deer. I am not exactly sure how those numbers support the notion that even if they wanted to, that they could actually kill 90% of the year class.And if they did, there would be a lot of every other year class left over.

[psepuncher]

low population

and less vegetation

like I've been saying to those who choose to still say that the habitat in MN is perfect. The only place unaffected to the opposite extreme of dry soil is in SE MN....go figure.

The Midwest:

Lack of recent precipitation is beginning to be felt throughout the region. Abnormal Dryness (D0) expanded across eastern Illinois and into western Indiana, in northern Michigan, and across most of Minnesota and parts of Wisconsin. Likewise, Moderate Drought (D1) expanded in Minnesota and northern Wisconsin. Cooler temperatures have helped abate the lack of moisture lately but that could be changing as above-normal temperatures are expected in the area over the next two weeks.

[PurpleFloyd]

BLACKJACK, here are my thoughts on this. I live in Little Falls and hunt in 221 and 215 quite a bit. In 2011 prefawn population estimates were in the 10-11 deer/sq mi area. This is prime deer country on the transition between ag and forest. Great productive deer habitat. How many of those 10-11 deer are bucks and does? 60:40 does to bucks? Probably. So there are 6 or 7 does and 4 or 5 bucks in there. Now, how many of those are yearling deer? No doubt the majority. So you have 2 or 3 adult does and, if you are lucky, maybe one 2.5 year old buck in your group of 4 or 5 bucks. The rest are yearlings. There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity? It absolutely is not possible to allow hunters to basically kill every deer they see (221 is 5 deer again this year!) and still produce mature deer. Yes a few big deer get killed every year in every county. But to say that a guy can just hunt harder/scout harder and find a big deer to hunt is not something that can be done on any kind of consistent basis. The guys I know that consistently kill bigger deer either 1) own a big chunk of land, or 2) have permission on a nice chunk of land along Camp Ripley. Permission on these lands is very tight. I've tried.

Statewide the deer population is estimated at 1 million. There are 500000 hunters that have a .33 percent success rate total. We took 192000 deer out of 1 million a year or 2 ago. If hunters did take all the yearlings then there were a whole mess of mature left over for the next year.

[nonteepical]

one million deer and a 2;1 doe to buck ratio is 666 thousand antlerless and 300 thousand bucks in the population. kill 100,000 bucks a year and you have a turnover rate every 3 years. shoot 70% yearlings for 30 years you end up with a young buck population, shoot 5 year old deer at a 70% rate you would end up with a old buck population.

[PurpleFloyd]

Or more likely harvest whichever buck god chooses to send your way and be happy he provided for you. One year it may be a yearling, one year it may be 3 years old and one year it may be 4 years old. He knows what you need and will provide it.

[nonteepical]

Absolutly true so now you can't use the excuse you hunt for meat because he will provide no matter what.

[PurpleFloyd]

Absolutly true so now you can't use the excuse you hunt for meat because he will provide no matter what.

He does. Sometimes it has a few points, sometimes none and some times quite a few. No excuses needed.sometimes even no deer at all but we divide them among the party so everyone shares in the harvest.

[BLACKJACK]

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

It is a different deer hunting culture in SE MN. I lived south of Rochester about 15 years ago, when the seasons were split into buck and doe seasons and I had a neighbor kid tell me "real deer hunters only hunt the buck season". Having grown up in a deer zone where even doe tags were treasured, it was a real head shaker.

[BLACKJACK]

Don't wan't to get in on the pizzing match here but a handful of buck photos in any magazine proves absolutely nothing for either side when you are talking about a buck harvest of 100K animals. Any county in the state should be able to put together a similar group of pictures, again it proves nothing.

Thats my point, if any county in the state can produce big bucks - as proved by pictures in ODN and on bait shop walls - why do we need APR?

[mntatonka]

It is a different deer hunting culture in SE MN. I lived south of Rochester about 15 years ago, when the seasons were split into buck and doe seasons and I had a neighbor kid tell me "real deer hunters only hunt the buck season". Having grown up in a deer zone where even doe tags were treasured, it was a real head shaker.

That's steadily changing. There's still the old guys that will only hunt the first season, and still even call it the "buck season", but more and more are realizing there isn't a buck season any more. There never was a "doe" season, because the 3B hunters could always shoot their bucks as well. The only people that tended to call it a doe season were the hunters that hunted the first season. The rest of us were happy to go along shooting our bucks and does and having an extra couple of days off work/school to hunt.

[TruthWalleyes]

It's still buck season down there

I hunt 3A because 3B's last weekend is the 1st weekend of muzzleloader, so i get two more days in the woods when i hunt 3A and ML. I also get to enjoy the beloved 1st day where the deer don't see it coming

[Bear55]

Thats my point, if any county in the state can produce big bucks - as proved by pictures in ODN and on bait shop walls - why do we need APR?

I'm not advocating we do, just trying to find some middle ground between those for and against it. An impossible task I am sure.

[mntatonka]

I'm not advocating we do, just trying to find some middle ground between those for and against it. An impossible task I am sure.

Good middle ground would be "education, not regulation."

[SmellEsox]

BLACKJACK, despite big bucks being shot all over the state, supply isn't meeting demand. There should be way more being shot than there currently are.

[Bear55]

There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity?

This is really the issue, the deer are under a ton of pressure so unless you have a lot of land locked up and everyone cooperating its tough to get results by passing young deer when a lot of them are whipped out opening weekend of rifle season.

The thing a lot of people don't talk about is even if a buck lives to be old under these conditions they are extremely hard to kill. They are masters of survival and by the time they hit those peak ages they rarely move during shooting hours because if they did they would already be dead. In states with a lot of older bucks the deer either aren't pressured as hard, have been passed up numerous times, they might have a lot more competition for does and it can just be a simple numbers name, a lot more of them around so your odds of running into one go up.

[Bear55]

Good middle ground would be "education, not regulation."

That is fine but education just doesn't work all that well, something about old dogs and new tricks. Right now I just hope for a decent population to hunt, that usually means there are plenty of deer to go around and some nice bucks slip through the cracks.

[Mo Gator]

A note on different deer hunting cultures - I go turkey hunting in south central Iowa, got a buddy who has family down there. Their deer culture is so much different than ours. They find it absolutely ridiculous to kill a small buck, as do all of their neighbors. These guys are consistently killing 140/150 class bucks every year. Nothing is regulating them to let the young bucks live, they do it because they know what can and does happen. This buddy has been to my place and laughs at the medicore 8 & 9 point racks I have on plaques in the garage. He said "you actually took the time to put that on a plaque???"

I understand there is less pressure in Iowa than we have here, but the land is very similar to alot of MN farm country.

[flipper]

Guy sounds like a ___________.

[96trigger]

Quote:

Nothing is regulating them to let the young bucks live, they do it because they know what can and does happen.

There is a lot of truth to this statement. This is the way that a chunk of people in zone 3 (and greater Minnesota) think. The inherent problem was that there was too great a population of hunters that absolutely would not change their thinking. Even when asked to, pleaded with, and educated on the effects of letting younger bucks go. Quite frankly, some people just don't care, have had an "any buck" mentality engrained in their head, or they feel that they should be able to shoot what they want. I don't have anything against these hunters, I don't think they are bad people, or bad hunters. I think they are probably great people and very good hunters. I do think their hunting practices were greatly impacting the progress that many people were trying to make for deer hunting in the area. I think enough people, and it wasn't just a few vocal ones, in this part of the state got fed up with it and pushed for the change. Again, right or wrong, it is what it is.

I don't think APR is going anywhere down here for awhile. I think it is helping educate some people that never would have passed on bucks to start thinking about it. I think some people that were totally against it 4 years ago, are now starting to see the positive benefits of it. As much as some people would hate to admit it, we ARE seeing more mature bucks now than in the past.

I'm not taking a poll, but for those of you that want to educate, not regulate, how many of you have taken a small buck in the last 4 years since the debate has begun? Education should work right? So all of you have been hearing about this now for years and you should just know that nobody should ever shoot forks and basket bucks anymore unless you are a kid and its your first.

How many of you know of people that have taken forks? Surely they know that shooting those bucks should be taboo, just like in Iowa, where nobody would dream of shooting one right?

I suppose now you come back and say that its your right to shoot whatever you want. OK I get it, but again, here is the circle of argument, shooting whatever you want, holds up the progress a growing number of people are trying to make, thus, the push for regulation. Its frustrating just thinking about it. It's really a vicious cycle....

[PurpleFloyd]

To be clear- what you are saying in regards to educationis that you are merely telling them the buck will have more points next year than it does this year if you let it walk. Correct?

[B. Amish]

I'm not taking a poll, but for those of you that want to educate, not regulate, how many of you have taken a small buck in the last 4 years since the debate has begun? Education should work right? So all of you have been hearing about this now for years and you should just know that nobody should ever shoot forks and basket bucks anymore unless you are a kid and its your first.

i've only shot one small buck ever (over 15 years of bow, rifle, muzz), and the only reason i shot it was because he was running around with half his jaw shot off. i pass up the baskets every year. i've got a few wall hangers.

but, i'm firmly against apr. at one time i was in favor of them.

what really rubs me is the way trophy elitists talk down to fellow hunters about shooting little bucks. it's all over this thread. at one point i was the same way, then i thought 'what the he77 is wrong with me?' i stopped worrying about what anyone else chose to shoot and got back to flat out enjoying time in the woods for the reasons i chose to be there.

[Scott K]

I guess I dont understand the fascination with racks. I hunt for meat, I dont care what is on its head. I have shot some decent bucks in my life, and you know what, I have never mounted one. I have though, gotten a quite a few that tasted very good over the years, and that is what I hunt for.

A successful hunt for me is a good supply of meat in the freezer, not something to put on the wall. I dont even want a deer mount in my house. So for those of you that want big antlers, dont shoot the small ones, leave them for me, and the rest of us that enjoy the meat.

[mntatonka]

Our entire party of 15-20 people have worked hard to quit taking smaller deer years before APR's were put in place, except the people who have never shot a buck.

At the same time, it depends on your definition of "small buck". To an old timer who grew up when there weren't many deer, any buck is a trophy. To some of us who grew up in the overpopulated ares of the southeast (which some areas still are), the more dead deer the better, regardless of sex. And then there's those who are out for a bigger one every year, and the antlers are never big enough. So who is someone else to tell them what a small buck is?

[mntatonka]

I guess I dont understand the fascination with racks. I hunt for meat, I dont care what is on its head. I have shot some decent bucks in my life, and you know what, I have never mounted one. I have though, gotten a quite a few that tasted very good over the years, and that is what I hunt for.

A successful hunt for me is a good supply of meat in the freezer, not something to put on the wall. I dont even want a deer mount in my house. So for those of you that want big antlers, dont shoot the small ones, leave them for me, and the rest of us that enjoy the meat.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing I would add is "don't tell me what I should consider a trophy".

[96trigger]

Quote:

To be clear- what you are saying in regards to educationis that you are merely telling them the buck will have more points next year than it does this year if you let it walk. Correct?

To be clear, that is a loaded question correct? If I say its for herd health, you tell me the science is bull and that there is no proof etc..etc... If I say its to get larger racks, I'm a "horn porn", elitist, trophy hunter, so whats the difference?

OK Mr. Floyd, how would you "educate" other hunters to get them to pass on young bucks? I'm curious.

I have said this numerous times, if you fundamentally disagree with this because for whatever reason you hate any and all regulations, there will never be any amount of "education" or persuasion that can take place and the discussion is pointless.

I work with kids, and every fall they come in with pictures of small bucks, I am very happy for them. I put their pictures up and post them on a website and give them a high five and ask them to tell me the story. I won't chastise anyone for shooting a legal deer or look down upon anyone that shoots a small buck when it is legal to do so. I don't agree with it, but they pulled the trigger and need to be happy with it.

[flipper]

Since you want to know 96Trigger, the Truth is I am a doe shooter. I am not embarassed to say I haven't shot a buck but my boys have shot a few of them. Last year I was after one with a really nice rack that was on my land. I could never get close enough to it. I wasn't after the rack, I wanted to put it out of its misery because some trophy hunter took a pot shot at it and blew one of its front legs off below the knee.