APR 2013?

[flipper]

The idea that nonteepical is pushing that the people (like myself) who do not support APR are then a bunch of "brown its down resource abusing meat hogs" is nonsense.

I could tell you my impression of the typical APR supporter: He is an urbanite who only gets out in the country during hunting season and hits the woods with a fervor. He can only be satisfied if he gets those horns to hang on his wall and put on his facebook page to prove himself somehow more worthy than the rest of us. He gets out of his shiny new pickup dressed as if he just popped out of a Cabela's catalog and thinks he should impose his rules on all hunters so he can get those horns. He is a taker!

[tfran123]

The idea that nonteepical is pushing that the people (like myself) who do not support APR are then a bunch of "brown its down resource abusing meat hogs" is nonsense.

I could tell you my impression of the typical APR supporter: He is an urbanite who only gets out in the country during hunting season and hits the woods with a fervor. He can only be satisfied if he gets those horns to hang on his wall and put on his facebook page to prove himself somehow more worthy than the rest of us. He gets out of his shiny new pickup dressed as if he just popped out of a Cabela's catalog and thinks he should impose his rules on all hunters so he can get those horns. He is a taker!

There are those, no doubt.

How about the individual or party who plant food plots for the wildlife, plant edges (shrubs and pines), and provide more suitable winter habitat and also work to control the predators? That my friend is the other side of many APR supporters, likely the majority of them, myself included.

Probably have logged 40-50 hours of just tractor time this year all in the name of conservation, for deer, turkey and grouse.

I hate the elitist mentality of the TV celebrities to boot, the message, language (shooter, etc.), I could go on. Could give a rip what the deer scores but if I outsmart a mature deer, it's a dang good day in my book.

[flipper]

And there are non APR supporters who work to improve wildlife habitat on their land as well! Actually, I have neighbors who don't even hunt that do more to provide wildlife habitat than most hunters.

[PurpleFloyd]

I couldn't find anything on the buck/doe ratio in the state, but here is a breakdown of last years numbers.

Zone 1: 181,143 Hunters 33,124 bucks, 25,823 Doe TOTAL: 58,947

Zone 2: 238,964 Hunters 44,345 Bucks, 35,611 Doe TOTAL: 79,956

Zone 3A: 25,210 Hunters 4,578 Bucks, 4,235 Doe TOTAL: 8,813

Zone 3B: 13,099 Hunters 1,256 Bucks, 3,566 Doe TOTAL: 4,822

CWD: 1,911 498 Bucks, 731 DOe TOTAL: 1,299

Landowner: 4,773 Hunters 0 Bucks, 1,499 Doe TOTAL: 1,499

Muzzle: 59,384 Hunters 3,251 Bucks, 4,528 Doe TOTAL: 7,779

Archery: 102,276 Hunters 8,663 Bucks, 12,942 DOE TOTAL: 21,605

TOTAL HUNTERS: 514,020

TOTAL BUCKS: 97,136

TOTAL DOE: 89,498

TOTAL HARVEST: 186,634

Equates to a 33.7% success rate.

They even have it broken down by section and show you how many fawns of each sex were harvested. Although the number of hunters who purchased license should be right on the money, the harvest numbers are skewed a bit. How many of us know people who NEVER register their deer. Tag it, take it home and cut it up. I'm sure there is more than we think. With those practices going on, the DNR will never be able to get a clear and true assessment of what the deer harvest is.

[tfran123]

And there are non APR supporters who work to improve wildlife habitat on their land as well! Actually, I have neighbors who don't even hunt that do more to provide wildlife habitat than most hunters.

Sure, and I know a group that'll clean house on little bucks year after year but still do food plots, I realize there are exceptions to the rule. Not every APR guy is posting his deer on Facebook and driving a fancy truck. Just sayin.

[nonteepical]

The idea that nonteepical is pushing that the people (like myself) who do not support APR are then a bunch of "brown its down resource abusing meat hogs" is nonsense.

I could tell you my impression of the typical APR supporter: He is an urbanite who only gets out in the country during hunting season and hits the woods with a fervor. He can only be satisfied if he gets those horns to hang on his wall and put on his facebook page to prove himself somehow more worthy than the rest of us. He gets out of his shiny new pickup dressed as if he just popped out of a Cabela's catalog and thinks he should impose his rules on all hunters so he can get those horns. He is a taker!

Far from it there isn't even a QDMA branch in the metro area.

I think you described the guy who thinks he's entitled to a deer, because he bought a liscence and the states job is to make it as easy as possible to get him one, and the herd should be managed to have a deer behind every tree.

[flipper]

Nope, I described the guy that thinks he is entitled to a deer with big antlers and thinks there should be one behind every tree.

[tfran123]

Nope, I described the guy that thinks he is entitled to a deer with big antlers and thinks there should be one behind every tree.

Been at this along time, teaching gun safety, active in youth archery, a number of various hunts in Western U.S. and Canada - been with many arrogant folks (mainly on hunts). But never, and I mean never, have I come across anyone that thought they were entitled to a deer with big antlers. Most of us want one (perhaps you don't), but most do, it's called hunting and not shooting for a reason. I think you're a bit biased here and I'm not sure you can stand behind the above argument to rationalize anti APR - just crazy. Sorry, just my views . . .

[Jameson]

Is that your theory or do you have proof?

What if 30% of the hunters are non-apr hunters and they shoot so many bucks that 90% of the year-old bucks are shot each and every year? In that situation wouldn't the 70% not be getting what they wanted - a bunch of 2.5 year old bucks to hunt?

[Scott K]

Then those 30% should get a ticket for shooting to many deer.

[tfran123]

Nope, I described the guy that thinks he is entitled to ANY BUCK and thinks there should be one behind every tree.

Fixed it for you. Knife cuts both ways.

[flipper]

Funny guy, I guess when you don't have a point....

[PurpleFloyd]

Is that your theory or do you have proof?

What if 30% of the hunters are non-apr hunters and they shoot so many bucks that 90% of the year-old bucks are shot each and every year? In that situation wouldn't the 70% not be getting what they wanted - a bunch of 2.5 year old bucks to hunt?

So there are 500,000 hunters and the success rate is 33% according to the above stats. 30 % of 500,000 is 150,000 and 33% success rate equals about 50,000 deer. The deer herd is estimated to be 1 Million deer. I am not exactly sure how those numbers support the notion that even if they wanted to, that they could actually kill 90% of the year class.And if they did, there would be a lot of every other year class left over.

[SmellEsox]

I think you would be surprised at the number of guys that do not voluntarily practice APR, but wish it would come and would gladly follow it. I know a few of my friends are this way. They passed up yearling bucks for a few years and still never saw any results due to harvest around them. So they shoot them knowing they probably won't survive anyways. You can call them hypocrites or whatever, but the fact is they want to see bigger bucks, but it isn't going to happen unless it is legislated. At least in our lifetimes probably.

[SmellEsox]

Man you guys! Quit with the stereotyping already! Not every APM guy is a Citiot and not every non APR guy is a B&D guy! Sure there is some of that. But I would bet the majority of APR guys are just very serious hunters that want to go to another level. They are guys that have shot enough spikes and forks and would like to shoot something other than the occasional 2.5 year old 8 pointer. They don't need to shoot a 4.5 year old every year, but it would make their hunt much more interesting and enjoyable if there was one out there. But please! Give me a break with the "I plant food plots and improve my habitat so I am holier than thou dump!" Gimme a break!

And the average anti-APR guy is probably a guy that enjoys the tradition of hunting with family or just the way they've done it for many years and doesn't want that to change. Most of them probably don't shoot everything they see I'm sure. Getting some venison every year is more important to them than the APR crowd, although every APR guy I know loves venny too. Also, they tend to not want more gov't control of their freedom to choose. But please spare the "I want to fill the freezer" comments. That just promotes animosity. And the, "the big ones are out there, just look at ODN"; or, "you just need to hunt harder", or, "if you shoot a big one every year it is no longer a trophy" comments. They are all bull. The majority of hunters want to see bigger bucks. The disagreement comes with how to get there.

[Getanet]

SmellEsox, there is no room for your brand of rational thought in this forum. Pick a side and prepare for battle wouldjya?

[BLACKJACK]

They don't need to shoot a 4.5 year old every year, but it would make their hunt much more interesting and enjoyable if there was one out there.

And the, "the big ones are out there, just look at ODN";

They are all bull.

Why is it bull if the pictures in ODN prove that there are big deer all over the state??? I can never understand that line of reasoning. Proof is in the pictures!!

You state in the first part of your post APR guys just want to see a few big deer, pictures in the ODN (and on the walls of many bait shops and outdoor stores) prove that their are big deer throughout the state - yet thats not good enough for the APR guys.

[Jameson]

So there are 500,000 hunters and the success rate is 33% according to the above stats. 30 % of 500,000 is 150,000 and 33% success rate equals about 50,000 deer. The deer herd is estimated to be 1 Million deer. I am not exactly sure how those numbers support the notion that even if they wanted to, that they could actually kill 90% of the year class.And if they did, there would be a lot of every other year class left over.

Not saying it was the case here in MN like you are, just saying that the blanket statement that Scott K made should not be made. Change the numbers in the above quote and it could happen somewhere. Especially if we start looking at smaller areas and not at statewide numbers.

[SmellEsox]

LOL at Getanet!

BLACKJACK, I get ODN. I see the pictures. And yes they are from all over the state. I would argue that most of them come from either the big woods, the metro or the SE. Ottertail Co. also seems like it puts out some nice deer. But if you do the math, the # of deer pictures in ODN amount to a pittance. Tell you what, while I know that not all big bucks are posted on ODN, I'll keep track of the kills by county and report back next spring. We can then see how many big buck pictures are posted by county and compare that to the number of square miles per county. Maybe you'll be surprised, maybe I'll be surprised. We shall see. Maybe someone else should try to do the same to keep me honest.

[SmellEsox]

Also, I will try to pick out those bucks in ODN that are at least 3.5 years old or older. I know that is subjective, but I will probably leave out some 3.5s that look like 2.5s, but I'll probably also include some 2.5s that look like 3.5s. Sound fair? Or is this a waste of my time? I think I'll do it anyways just to have some fun.

[nonteepical]

Look at ODN Wisconsin or ODN Illinois and they have 2-4 pages of bucks per issue with 50% 3yo plus, ODN Mn. has 1 page per issue with maye 5 of those deer 3 plus.

In Mn we talk about having some 3 year olds as mature, but in a balanced age structure like mother nature intended, a 3yo isn't even considered mature. 5-6 is mature and we have verrry few of them.

[tfran123]

Look at ODN Wisconsin or ODN Illinois and they have 2-4 pages of bucks per issue with 50% 3yo plus, ODN Mn. has 1 page per issue with maye 5 of those deer 3 plus.

In Mn we talk about having some 3 year olds as mature, but in a balanced age structure like mother nature intended, a 3yo isn't even considered mature. 5-6 is mature and we have verrry few of them.

+1, you are correct.

Furthermore, who cares what's in ODN, it's such a small sampling its irrelevant. So you are going to identify 12 mature bucks killed in Pine County, there are thousands of hunters here. Very crude sampling method.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

WOW!!! The childish tripe that just transpired over the course of the last page is exactly what is wrong with society and the hunting community and why I loath everything about the garbage they put out on TV and magazines.

I'm better than you are.... you're just a wannabe and I'm way more of a "true hunter" than you.... nanna nanna boo boo....

Belch! Grow up for crying out loud! geesh!

[BLACKJACK]

We can then see how many big buck pictures are posted by county and compare that to the number of square miles per county.

There is no doubt that some counties will have more big bucks shot than other counties, its called difference in habitat, you can't compare big woods to farm land.

My guess is the ODN receives photos of a very small percentage of the big bucks shot in MN, not every deer hunter subscribes to ODN, and not every deer hunter needs to get their picture with a big buck in the paper.

My point is that APR advocates always pooh pooh the pictures in ODN, the APR advocates say they want bigger bucks, the ODN proves that there are big bucks throughout the state, yet thats not good enough for them. And then they get mad when statements are made like 'APR advocates want the DNR to legislate a big buck behind every tree' yet thats exactly what I see, they don't want to go hunt down the big bucks that ODN proves are there, they want it made easier for them.

Theres a reason its called hunting.

[Bear55]

Don't wan't to get in on the pizzing match here but a handful of buck photos in any magazine proves absolutely nothing for either side when you are talking about a buck harvest of 100K animals. Any county in the state should be able to put together a similar group of pictures, again it proves nothing.

[TruthWalleyes]

It says more about the editorial staff of each state than anything. MN obviously not interested in an album of horns.

[HNTNBUX]

Yep its called hunting so why is it you have to shoot the baby deer and not hunt for an adult deer and still consider yourself the true hunter.

Regardless of APR or other rules this urbanite will continue to hunt several months and states a year while burning through all of my vacation time and putting countless miles on my new truck. I just might even be wearing new clothes because I wear them more than one weekend a year and find it necessary to replace them more often.

[flipper]

If you all want big deer and a balanced population and horns aren't the issue than why not let the 2 1/2 and older deers walk. They are the ones we want in the herd right? If you get close enough for a shot you have done your part as a good hunter, then let them walk and shoot a younger one for the table.

[HNTNBUX]

They all taste good. The bigger ones are just that, bigger.

FWIW I don't hunt in an APR area but I wish I did. They could make all intensive and managed areas APR as far as I'm concerned but I know that is likely unrealistic.

[Mo Gator]

SmellEsox, you make way too much sense! Good posts!