APR 2013?

[SmellEsox]

There is no data unfortunately B. Amish. What do you think the number of 3.5+ bucks is per sq. mi.? There are about 1,000,000 deer in MN going into season. There are about 87,000 sq. mi. in the state. So of those 11.5 deer per sq. mi., how many on average are 3.5+ y.o. bucks?

My guess is there has to be way less than one in my area. Mainly based on the fact that the majority are does and fawns and the doe:buck ratio is higher than 1:1. What is your guess? Seriously, I'm curious what people out there think? I suspect everyone's answer will be different based on where they hunt.

[tfran123]

bingo

[B. Amish]

but, a well balanced buck age structure should be well defined if it's the reason we need apr, right?

[Jameson]

18 deer

10 does, 8 bucks

4 bucks are fawns

2 bucks are yearlings

1 buck is 2.5

1 buck is 3.5 or more

Looks like a well balanced herd to me. Seem reasonable to you B. Amish? Tfran what is your breakdown?

What I am used to seeing in some spots would be more like:

18 deer

12 does, 6 bucks

3 buck fawns

3 buck yearlings.

And yes, that does show poor recruitment. Something partially caused by not having enough bucks in the herd.

[Scott K]

If you want older bucks in the woods, stop shooting the older bucks!

[Jameson]

I want more bucks in the woods, what do I need to do?

[Big Dave2]

I want more bucks in the woods, what do I need to do?

Don't kill any. Abolish hunting.

[flipper]

Just hunt with your camera. You APR guys are falling right into PETA's trap anyway.

[Big Dave2]

Just hunt with your camera. You APR guys are falling right into PETA's trap anyway.

Exactly!

[PurpleFloyd]

18 deer

10 does, 8 bucks

4 bucks are fawns

2 bucks are yearlings

1 buck is 2.5

1 buck is 3.5 or more

Looks like a well balanced herd to me. Seem reasonable to you B. Amish? Tfran what is your breakdown?

What I am used to seeing in some spots would be more like:

18 deer

12 does, 6 bucks

3 buck fawns

3 buck yearlings.

And yes, that does show poor recruitment. Something partially caused by not having enough bucks in the herd.

You probably aren't seeing the big ones because they are a bit more elusive and harder to locate. You may not have the right habitat, there might be too much human pressure or other factors. The big deer are there and they always will be as long as there is a population.

Answer me this one- Lets just say for fun and games that we buy into this and decide to do it right and leave everything live until it's say 5.5 like the one guy who had his article linked the other day. Now, we have lots and lots of big bucks running around the area.

How do you think the hunting pressure is going to change? Do you think it will still be the same as it is? Do you think the outfitters will stay away when there is money to be made by leasing and posting the land and bringing in the pay per hunt crowd?

Do you think the public land will still have any spots without a hunter sitting on it?

[PEATMOSS]

I want more bucks in the woods, what do I need to do?

When I start seeing folks on your side saying things like "shoot your best, leave the rest", I might actually start taking some of what you say about wanting more big bucks in the woods seriously. The fact of the matter is you just want to SHOOT MORE BIG BUCKS.

Those of us that don't share this philosophy are being asked to alter our hunting practices so that your ilk can punch your man card a little more often. Just exactly are you willing to forgo to achieve this?

[lakevet]

The year before any experimentation, there was a regristration option of yearling buck when you registered your deer, thats where 69% yearling buck harvest came from.

Minnesota and the majority of every other state at the time, practiced traditional deer management, wich is for population control, nothing more nothing less, buck age data is not needed to be tabulated through traditional deer management, so it dosen't exist.

Checking my old licenses I don't see "yearling buck" on any registration tags. Legal antlered buck or antler less, adult or fawn. So are we really talking about buck fawns without legal antlers?

lakevet

[Jameson]

When I start seeing folks on your side saying things like "shoot your best, leave the rest", I might actually start taking some of what you say about wanting more big bucks in the woods seriously. The fact of the matter is you just want to SHOOT MORE BIG BUCKS.

Those of us that don't share this philosophy are being asked to alter our hunting practices so that your ilk can punch your man card a little more often. Just exactly are you willing to forgo to achieve this?

If you go back to the first page or so of the thread you can see that I am against APR's. So, when you say the folks on my side who are you talking about? The pro-buck lottery folks n anti-APR folks side? And how is it that my side is asking you to alter your hunting practices? Other than ask you to do what we would all have to do, not get to hunt with our own tags every year. If you had a party of four and had two tags there could still be four hunters going out on opening day, we have party tagging in most of the state still. In low deer density areas, where a buck lottery would be used, most land owners would not mind not being able to kill a deer for each hunter. It doesn't happen now the way it is. What do we have something like a 35% or 50% success rate?

[Jameson]

Now, we have lots and lots of big bucks running around the area.

1)How do you think the hunting pressure is going to change? 2)Do you think it will still be the same as it is? 3)Do you think the outfitters will stay away when there is money to be made by leasing and posting the land and bringing in the pay per hunt crowd?

4)Do you think the public land will still have any spots without a hunter sitting on it?

1.)less. Limit the hunter pressure by limiting the tags. Initially in year one of your scenario there may be no buck/doe lottery areas, but there would also be plenty of deer = lower hunting pressure then we have now, and then in future years control the hunting pressure with buck/doe lottery as needed.

2)No, no point in wanting change if that was the case. Besides, the only constant is change.

3) Have the outfitters ruined bear hunting? I am answering your questions answer mine. The outfitters will be limited by not being able to get all the tags they want. Will they stay away? No. Will they overrun everything, no. We will have a couple of harsh winters and the tags will get very limited. Most outfitters will go out of business.

4)More spots. Again first year, sure there would be people everywhere, but there would be deer everywhere, too. So more good hunting spots to be had. When the deer numbers decline limit the hunters so that there is still plenty of good hunting spots.

[Jameson]

...The fact of the matter is you just want to SHOOT MORE BIG BUCKS...

I just want to SHOOT MORE DEER, and by I, I really mean the state of MN. If we can make changes that up recruitment it will allow all of us to shoot more deer. I'd like to see our state's overall harvest numbers increase. It wouldn't happen the first few years while our herd was balancing out, but after a few years we would be killing more deer annually. For instance, we might still have the SW part of the state lottery after a few years, but with two or three times as many tags as will be punched this year.

[Jameson]

...You probably aren't seeing the big ones because they are a bit more elusive and harder to locate...

After switching hunters areas I am seeing them, still can't close the deal. Thing is, I am a lazier hunter now then before. The big ones just weren't there where I was before - for whatever reason(s).

[Jameson]

Don't kill any. Abolish hunting.

That will result in none. Try again.

[TruthWalleyes]

edit gonna get this to page 21

[PurpleFloyd]

1.)less. Limit the hunter pressure by limiting the tags. Initially in year one of your scenario there may be no buck/doe lottery areas, but there would also be plenty of deer = lower hunting pressure then we have now, and then in future years control the hunting pressure with buck/doe lottery as needed.

[PurpleFloyd]

...You probably aren't seeing the big ones because they are a bit more elusive and harder to locate...

[Scott K]

I hunt in Wisconsin where baiting is legal, trust me, older deer get wise to the free unusual pile of food in the middle of no where, they may be coming to it, but it is at night only. But it sure does draw in the yearlings, and small bucks The tender meat

[RumRiverRat]

Baiting in WI is great.

Excellent way to shoot does.

My goal is to harvest at least 15 does from my property in WI.

Will have to bait to accomplish that I think.

[skee0025]

Baiting in WI is great.

Excellent way to shoot does.

My goal is to harvest at least 15 does from my property in WI.

Will have to bait to accomplish that I think.

I'm just down the road, if you want help taking does

[Scott K]

Baiting in WI is great.

Excellent way to shoot does.

My goal is to harvest at least 15 does from my property in WI.

Will have to bait to accomplish that I think.

ahh, a new twist in the APR thread

RRR, I will say on some lands baiting isnt necessary, but if you own say 40 acres, and it is all wooded, and in the middle of 1000's of acres of wooded land, a bait pile can draw some deer into a certain area. Not all land has a natural funnel area, or food plot on it. I see a food plot no different then baiting, they are both put there to draw in deer. Now I realize food plots feed deer for longer then just enough to be shot, its intent is to draw in deer for hunting.

My land in Wisconsin happens to be a decent area for deer, and I do plant food plots, and I have designed a watering hole for the deer as well, so baiting isnt really needed. I do what I can to make my land a better habitat for deer. I have been doing this for 10+ years. I have noticed the results, except when the wolves come in and wipe out the herd. This has happened 2 times in the past 5 years.

My area usually has a lot of deer, and it is in a herd control unit pretty much every year, so the taking of does is what they want. My land is mostly wooded, but some of the neighboring lands have big open fields, and if you drive past them late evening, or early mornings, you can see close to 100 deer out in these fields at times. SO there are many deer in the area. Many of those antlerless deer are young bucks, and they get shot right along with the does. Freezer filling is usually pretty easy in this area.

[Wanderer]

Opened the day with 5 sightings, 4 from the stand, no antlers that I could see. Drew back on the 3 walking by but they stayed just off the trail and out of clear shooting. Nice rush to open the season in zone 3!

[PurpleFloyd]

I hunt in Wisconsin where baiting is legal, trust me, older deer get wise to the free unusual pile of food in the middle of no where, they may be coming to it, but it is at night only. But it sure does draw in the yearlings, and small bucks The tender meat

We have some land between Ashland and Iron River. The mother in law has her house on an adjacent plot and she feeds them daily. There is usually 8-12 pt bucks eating out there every day. They just eat and watch us through the patio door. Not much fear there.

[Wanderer]

'Nother non hypothetical report from my buddy's morning.

9 deer seen, 3 does and 6 bucks; four of which were legal but moving too fast for him to get a shot.

Totals for morning 1: 14 deer sighted; 8 does and 6 bucks. 12 legal targets.

Yeah, this sucks.

Wind came up but headed back out now. Haven't been seeing anything in the open lately so I'm not expecting as good of numbers for tonight but we'll see.

[Scott K]

4 deer seen, 2 does, 2 smaller non spotted deer with them

[james_walleye]

First Evening In Stand. Past Up Shots On 5 Legal Deer. 1 Doe And 4 Bucks. Saw 7 Does And 6 Bucks Total. Very Fun Evening! Just Further Proof.....Aprs Or No Aprs.....You Put A Reasonable Amount Of Time In A Deer Stand In Zone 3.....You Are Not Going To Have A Problem Putting Meat In The Freezer. If You Make The Choice To Only Spend One WeekendIn The Woods With A Gun In Zone 3 And You Come Home Empty Handed.....YouDid Much More To Keep Your Freezer Empty Than Any Regulation Ever Could.

[candiru]

Now the farmers are mad:

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3160682.shtml?cat=1