APR 2013?

[Big Dave2]

The act of hunting an animal. It is not about surviving anymore, is it?

For most people it is not but for a few I imagine it still is. That still doesn't mean that the purest form of hunting can't be about food and using the animal that you kill. Hunting is not bowling.

[Jameson]

If you can only find joy in shooting big bucks for whatever reason then I feel bad. If the future is just about turning the woods into a factory that churns out bigger and bigger bucks then I feel bad for the future of hunting.

Don't feel bad. I find more joy in shooting a fawn for the freezer. Just so happens that having more bucks in the population might churn out more fawns.

[Jameson]

Hunting is not bowling.

No, it's not. Sex is not bowling either. All of it is entertainment at this point for most people.

[Jameson]

I maybe can't tell you every "traditional aspect of hunting" but I can tell you what was not a traditional aspect of hunting and that is antler size.

Native Americans certainly used antlers for tools. If a 6-pointers makes 6 spears, and a 8-pointer makes 8 spears, then the Indian is gonna shoot the bigger buck every time.

[Big Dave2]

Native Americans certainly used antlers for tools. If a 6-pointers makes 6 spears, and a 8-pointer makes 8 spears, then the Indian is gonna shoot the bigger buck every time.

Correction: He would shoot the first buck.

[Big Dave2]

No, it's not. Sex is not bowling either. All of it is entertainment at this point for most people.

Killing is entertainment for you. OK, got it.

[Wanderer]

That smacks as a pretty self righteous comment there...

Killing is a part of hunting. And I doubt you can retain credibility these days if you say, "Gee, I'd really like to go bowling with you but I have no food so I have to go hunting instead. Dang it".

Dave, do you practice C&R when fishing (assuming you fish)? Or do you stop fishing once you catch enough to eat and call it good. No, C&R isn't killing by intent but there is a certain amount of hooking mortality on those extra fish you're catching to entertain yourself.

What do anti-APR guys want? More deer to kill because its more fun to hunt with more targets on the hoof. The point of putting meat in the freezer is pretty universal for hunters on both sides of this argument, yet pro - APR guys are less upset if they don't get their kill. Personally I prefer taking bigger bodied deer whether it be a buck or doe and I have to believe traditionally hunters have chosen the larger of any two deer that presented equal opportunity. It's simply more meat. Deer don't get to be poorer table fare until much later in life than 1.5 years.

To say you don't enjoy the kill when hunting is a lie. You wouldn't hunt if the kill wasn't your goal. Anti - APR guys are spinning this into pro - APR guys losing the sanctity of the hunt and the true bond to nature over their egos. I challenge the antis this: Ask a deer if it would rather live to 2.5 years or longer vs 1.5 and see what it says. If runs away from you without saying anything, the answer is 2.5. Who's ideals are more in line with the deer's now?

Yes, I'm awake at this rediculous hour because like anytime before I go hunting, I can't sleep. I'm packed and ready to head out tomorrow for an enjoyable weekend hunting with my buddy. I just spent more money getting ready for this weekend than my wife did on her last trip to get groceries. I hope to come back with at least one, and will, if I play the game right. We do still call deer "Game", don't we?

[tfran123]

The more you type the less believable you become, wow.

[SmellEsox]

So how would APR impact your meat hunting tradition? You could still hunt for meat right? Would you still hunt with friends and family? Would you still go to the same camp? Would you still sit in some of the same stands? Would it change what equipment you would use or your hunting strategy? Would it change the kind of beer you drank after the hunt? Would it change how you cooked your backstraps?

APR has been in effect for a few years now in SE MN and it seems like there is still a heck of a lot of meat being taken out of the woods. Not sure why it would have to change much about your tradition.

[B. Amish]

Problem is in one square mile we've got 18 deer and 5 are bucks, one of which is over 3, we cull a large amount of our young bucks. Wasn't saying the entire article was relevant to APR, it's not, just a few good tidbits to digest.

i'm interested to hear how many of the 18 you think should be bucks over 3...

[muskiemanAD]

Amish, He along with me and all supporters of anti brown its down would like all 18 to be 200 inch bucks. We would actually prefer the bucks to be born at 3.5 too..... This whole thread has went round and round. I get it some don't like it some do, it is currently the law so deal with it, if it gets changed I'll deal with it. Anyone don't like APR in SE MN can go to the thousands of miles of public land to the north and shoot spikes till your blue in the face....

[PurpleFloyd]

So how would APR impact your meat hunting tradition? You could still hunt for meat right? Would you still hunt with friends and family? Would you still go to the same camp? Would you still sit in some of the same stands? Would it change what equipment you would use or your hunting strategy? Would it change the kind of beer you drank after the hunt? Would it change how you cooked your backstraps?

APR has been in effect for a few years now in SE MN and it seems like there is still a heck of a lot of meat being taken out of the woods. Not sure why it would have to change much about your tradition.

In the areas where there are 1 or less deer per square mile and only a few hundred antlerless tags given away over several counties it means you may see only one deer a season and if that deer was a six or less and you weren't one of the few who drew an antlerless tag you probably go home without a deer. In the corn belt if there is corn left in the fields that is where the bucks, especially the big ones hide out and the chances of ever seeing one walk by in the daylight is even more remote.

If we decide to adopt the APR philosophy and let the young bucks walk and shoot does instead, the population drops even more in this area.

If you have an overabundance of deer in your area and it can handle selective harvest then by all means have at it. If you fail to understand that it isn't a one size fits all then I can't help.

[TruthWalleyes]

Horn Porn

VS

Brown Its Down

[Wanderer]

Both are VERY NICE! But I'll guarantee you that heart didn't come out of a yearling deer.

I was looking through the regs last night for a refresher. The DNR lists their reason for APRs as a measure to protect roughly half of the yearling buck population. Just stating what I read.

[SmellEsox]

PurpleFloyd, I've already stated that it should not be put in areas with low deer numbers if you remember. So I agree with you. On the other hand, in 1 or 2 years, you'd be able to harvest as usual. The population shouldn't decline if antlerless harvest is controlled by lottery. Harvest would just be very lean for a year or two.

[SmellEsox]

TW, the problem is you basically assume it is one or the other. It is very far from it. Both could be satisfied under appropriate management.

[Bear55]

I hope some of your bow hunters can have fun this weekend! Not sure if I could hunt if I was constantly worried about one group of hunter "ruining" our sport and another group of hunters shooting "too many" young bucks.

[PurpleFloyd]

PurpleFloyd, I've already stated that it should not be put in areas with low deer numbers if you remember. So I agree with you. On the other hand, in 1 or 2 years, you'd be able to harvest as usual. The population shouldn't decline if antlerless harvest is controlled by lottery. Harvest would just be very lean for a year or two.

Well, there are many others here who have not and clearly want it.

[lakevet]

Will someone in the pro apr camp please post links to reliable documented source that shows the buck harvest in Minnesota by age class, Especially the all important % of harvest that is 1.5 years. Include data from past 10 years.

Thank you

lakevet

Did anyone ever reply to this simple request for facts to back up their point of view?

The only info I can find is the annual QDMA reports. They state that in 2009 (the year BEFORE APR STARTED) the percentage of young bucks in the harvest STATEWIDE in Minnesota was 41%, far less then the usual number quoted. The year before it was over 60%. It appears that we voluntarily have dropped the harvest of young bucks without the need for statewide regulations. Amazingly no data is available since then, just when it would be very useful to help discuss the APR issue based on facts. If facts showed the harvest was voluntarily staying around 41% statewide without statewide apr regulations, this whole issue would go away along with a couple pages of the hunting rule book. And a few hunting camps might get back together after having split over this issue.

By the way, Wisconsin which produces all those book bucks without APR and while allowing buck cross tagging, often has over 50% of its buck harvest 1.5 years old bucks.

lakevet

[tfran123]

Horn Porn

VS

Brown Its Down

Yep you've got us pegged, if you like to shoot a nice buck once and awhile and want to manage toward a more balanced herd you must be one of those guys that hates tradition, deer organs, etc. such a boneheaded post I don't know why I acknowledge it.

As for the guy saying one year we had 60 ish % yearling buck harvest and then it dropped to around 40%, surely you aren't telling us that is a trend are you? Many states are north of 50 by a wide margin.

Have fun guys, going hunting.

[Bear55]

lakevet

I'm not sure any of that data is accurate, not sure what WI does but MN has never kept records of age class of harvest. I think the QDMA report said something about talking to a local registration station but if you are just talking about one spot I don't know how reliable that data is. On top of it you how have phone and online registration and on top of that you have your average hunter who probably isn't sure how old the buck they just shot is.

[SmellEsox]

"By the way, Wisconsin which produces all those book bucks without APR and while allowing buck cross tagging, often has over 50% of its buck harvest 1.5 years old bucks."

This is a very good point. But I think the difference is that WI folks/DNR tolerate a lot more deer on the landscape than MN does. That definitely helps produce more big bucks. In MN, DNR gives out a lot of antlerless tags and folks aren't afraid to use them. We keep the herd pretty lean in this state.

[SmellEsox]

I asked my local DNR Wildlife Manager if he knew yearling harvest rates and he is going to try to find me some data from the early 2000s when they ran check stations in this area. If he gets it to me, I'll post it up.

[Big Dave2]

The more you type the less believable you become, wow.

Likewise.

[Big Dave2]

I challenge the antis this: Ask a deer if it would rather live to 2.5 years or longer vs 1.5 and see what it says. If runs away from you without saying anything, the answer is 2.5. Who's ideals are more in line with the deer's now?

This must be the "science" you guys keep alluding to. The science of "ask the deer what it thinks". LOL. You guys are deer whisperers now?

I'm pretty sure the deer would say it would like to live much longer than 2.5 years, since you seem to care so much about the deer's opinion.

[nonteepical]

Thats one of the more stupid comments said on this thread "talked to a regristration station" LOL.

The DNR gave QDMA data from Itasca state park hunts, wich at the time, the park was expeiramenting with APR's on Itasca state park and earn a buck was being studied in St.Croix state park, they were conducting these studies because of hunters surveys, wanting an older age class of bucks. Thats where 40% yearling buck harvest came from, Itasca state park data. The year before any experimentation, there was a regristration option of yearling buck when you registered your deer, thats where 69% yearling buck harvest came from.

Minnesota and the majority of every other state at the time, practiced traditional deer management, wich is for population control, nothing more nothing less, buck age data is not needed to be tabulated through traditional deer management, so it dosen't exist.

[PurpleFloyd]

I'm pretty sure the deer would say it would like to live much longer than 2.5 years, since you seem to care so much about the deer's opinion.

[B. Amish]

Amish, He along with me and all supporters of anti brown its down would like all 18 to be 200 inch bucks. We would actually prefer the bucks to be born at 3.5 too.....

my point is APR guys always refer to a 'well balanced age structure' but have nothing to back that up. so, here's your chance or anyone else's for that matter.

of 18 deer, how many bucks should there be over 3?

please back it up with something besides bar room biology.

[Wanderer]

Just putting it out there in crayon.

I can't tell if you're The Bod or The Thinker. I do know you have a great big spoon you like to keep moving though.

[nonteepical]

every thread with bigdave is a "conspiracy theory"