APR 2013?

[B. Amish]

even in wild, non-hunted deer herds with a "balanced" age structure, the MAJORITY of bucks are going to be fawns, then 1.5, then 2.5, then 3.5 and so on.

[flipper]

Didn't say that did I? Can't type slower so do want me to try again?

Don't keep putting words in my mouth. Haven't even brought up rack size and quite honestly have NEVER said APR is the answer, so be careful and read my posts again. Wow.

[BLACKJACK]

Here is what else is funny, you non-APR guys love throwing out the terms "horn porn" or "antler hunters", don't hear the other side saying meat maggots or brown its down crowd.

'Brown its down' doesn't bother me a bit, its the truth, call a spade a spade. Thats why 'horn porn' works so well, thats what it is.

[tfran123]

"Support" yes, "silver bullet" or "best alternative no.

[Getanet]

Who needs APR when you can have this:

http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_24077915/minn-deer-farm-puts-9-400-price-bucks

Minn. deer farm puts $9,400 price on buck's head

The Associated Press

VERGAS, Minn.—A Minnesota deer farm owner has turned to social media to advertise a chance to shoot a captive trophy buck for $9,400.

Mike Summers of Summers Game Ranch near Vergas told WDAY-TV ( http://bit.ly/1atFSuS) Tarzan is 4 years old and won't be used for breeding. So he's offering hunters the change to bag the buck on his 25-acre farm in northwestern Minnesota. The buck has a rack few hunters would see in the wild, Summer said.

"Last year, he had 30 scorable points. He scored 241 inches at 3 years old," Summers said.

More than 500 Minnesota farms raise deer or elk. Several let hunters pay to shoot trophy animals on their fenced-in property. Other private game preserves offer hunters opportunities to shoot farm-raised upland game birds and waterfowl. Captive hunts are legal, but the sportsmanship remains debated.

"I guess if it is legal, that is one thing, but a true hunter would not want to do something like that," said John Young of the Clay-Wilkin Deer Hunters Association.

Summers said it's not for everyone, but some people don't have the time to hunt such a buck in the wild and would rather hang a mount than a picture on their wall.

[tfran123]

Go nuts, not my cup of tea nor would it be for any real hunter. The guys who do this stuff are the true horn porn guys, this stuff ruins our sport.

[Scott K]

Along with a few other things

[PEATMOSS]

Go nuts, not my cup of tea nor would it be for any real hunter. The guys who do this stuff are the true horn porn guys, this stuff ruins our sport.

The selfishness and greed that have come along with this infatuation with antlers is what is going to ruin our sport. One need look no further than Texas to see the direction you guys are pushing us.

[tfran123]

I would bet we are more alike (and everyone on both sides of APR) than dissimilar. I hear ya and the high fence/game farm hunts are another topic all together.

If you think APR will ruin the sport I disagree, nope it's not perfect and far from it.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

The selfishness and greed that have come along with this infatuation with antlers is what is going to ruin our sport. One need look no further than Texas to see the direction you guys are pushing us.

Amen!!! This is the main reason I can not, nor will not ever, ever, ever support antler protection regulations. It is, and will continue to degrade the traditional aspects of hunting. As long as there is the push for the "all for one and all for horn" mentality, those on the fence whom don't hunt but do support hunting now will easily turn to the side of the anti's. Sadly for a growing number of hunters, especially the younger generations, hunting is no longer about harvesting food, but harvesting bone for bragging rights. This younger generation will reap what they sew in the future, though! Careful what you wish for!

I fear the babies born today will be faced with little to no chance at actually hunting when they are of age. I truly believe hunting as we know it here in MN will be just like Texas in 20yrs. The vast majority of state and federal lands will soon be mowed down for development/industry/agriculture and sold and bought by the elite. The pittance of public land left for us to scavenge over, will be so heavily pressured there will be no fun to be had. And this gloom and doom isn't even including the future gun restrictions that will force many out of the tradition as well....

It's a sad day when there is 15-20+ pages of arguing from a group forcing control over how one is able to partake in a traditional past-time. These are arguments between folks whom should have each others back, not jumping down them.

We should appreciate how great it is to be able to even enjoy something called hunting. It can very easily be swept out from under us and snatched away if we are not careful.

Done....

[Jameson]

...the traditional aspects of hunting...

I googled "what are the traditional aspects of hunting?" and it really didn't show a clear list of the traditional aspects of hunting. What are they? Is it possible that my traditions are different then yours? And that you want the hunting managed for your traditions...

We can't manage for tradition, we need to manage with Science in mind.

[flipper]

The "Science of Antler Envy"

[PurpleFloyd]

we need to manage with Science in mind.

OK, I'll bite.

Lay some of that science you speak of on me.

[Big Dave2]

I googled "what are the traditional aspects of hunting?" and it really didn't show a clear list of the traditional aspects of hunting. What are they? Is it possible that my traditions are different then yours? And that you want the hunting managed for your traditions...

We can't manage for tradition, we need to manage with Science in mind.

Traditions of hunting probably go back a little farther than me, you or anyone else on this forum.

I maybe can't tell you every "traditional aspect of hunting" but I can tell you what was not a traditional aspect of hunting and that is antler size.

Traditional aspects of hunting have all to do with survival, food, clothing and other uses for the deer that were killed. I'm guessing it didn't have much to do with trophies or bragging on message boards.

Do you really think that Natives 250 years ago let the first available deer walk by so they could kill one with larger antlers?

[tfran123]

Dr. Kroll has forgot more about whitetails than you and I know, read this and report back

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/huntingtactics_naw_maturebuck_200808/

The point here is bucks don't breed a lot of does, it's not like pheasants and the importance of having a healthy age distribution, something we lack in most areas.

[tfran123]

They didn't and if they didn't kill they died, you and I have Cub Foods. Your survival isn't determined on whether or not you kill a deer, period.

Next.

[PurpleFloyd]

They didn't and if they didn't kill they died, you and I have Cub Foods. Your survival isn't determined on whether or not you kill a deer, period.

Next.

Your survival isn't going to be determined by whether your neighbor takes a deer you would let walk so relax and enjoy the outdoors.

[Jameson]

...

Lay some of that science you speak of on me.

Lay some of those hunting traditions that our hunting regulations must adhere to first, k?

I will say Science won out over tradition in the past when the Antlerless Permit Lottery was introduced. Traditionally hunters used to overhunt an area, then move on. It was only farmers and settlers that stayed in a area. Folks today are trying to be civilized and modern and not be the nomadic hunters of past. To bring up tradition is just silly.

[tfran123]

Doesn't matter either that you favorite lake has stunted walleyes because of over harvest either I suppose.

How can they dare to tell us how many fish to keep, not allowing us to shoot hen pheasants, wear a seat belt, but god forbid if they tell you not to shoot a spike buck . . . the world must be coming to an end.

[Jameson]

Traditional aspects of hunting have all to do with survival, food, clothing and other uses for the deer that were killed.

But today it is not about survival. Hunting has changed to be about entertainment.

Traditionally hunting was about survival, today hunting is about entertainment. This comes from a guy that used to eat 4 deer a year by himself. That got to be too much and now I try to keep it to 2. Had to clean up a road kill to get that meat this last year. This month I have ran out of venison and the wallet isn't liking the grocery store tab. I am the minority, today hunting is about entertainment, and perhaps a little about teaching kids about the great outdoors. To say that hunting deer in MN in today's world has to do about survival is near preposterous.

We need today's regulations to reflect today's world. We are no longer nomadic hunters trying to survive. Sorry, but give it a try if you'd like. We are living in a time that is even much different then 50 years ago. More hunters that have more and better tools, hunting less land that we can now access more of. Our regulations need to change with the times to keep the hunting enjoyable. That is what will keep hunting surviving into the future.

[PurpleFloyd]

Dr. Kroll has forgot more about whitetails than you and I know, read this and report back

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/huntingtactics_naw_maturebuck_200808/

The point here is bucks don't breed a lot of does, it's not like pheasants and the importance of having a healthy age distribution, something we lack in most areas.

Well, that did absolutely nothing to support your theory that letting a 1.5 YO buck walk so it can get the 2.5 and then get shot is helping herd health. If you prescribe to his philosophy then taking a 4.5 year old buck is possibly too aggressive and also, if you actually did read what he wrote, if you take all the 3.5 and older bucks out of the population you are actually hurting the potential of the younger bucks by forcing them to breed too early. So if you prescribe to his theory you certainly don't want to take the 2.5 year old buck. Next, you need to decide whether you are going to be in favor of limiting the number of hunters in the state in order to have so few hunters that they can be selective and only take the 5.5 year old and up Bucks and leave the rest alone.Of course the fact that Bucks that age tend to go nocturnal and the fact that we can only hunt during daylight certainly adds a twist.

When you talk about managing herds there are a few things you need to consider.

First, if you fence in a property and control who goes in and out and who takes what then you can devise a fairly decent management strategy and you can track the results to know whether you are reaching your goals.

However,(And this is where you are missing the mark) when you are talking about trying to implement something like APR on a statewide basis across public and private land that spans from the prairie grass and sloughs to the north woods and think that this alone will actually allow you to "Manage" the herd for health then that is not good scientific theory. The topography and saturation capacity of the land changes across a section let alone from one corner of the state to the other.

[tfran123]

Problem is in one square mile we've got 18 deer and 5 are bucks, one of which is over 3, we cull a large amount of our young bucks. Wasn't saying the entire article was relevant to APR, it's not, just a few good tidbits to digest.

[PurpleFloyd]

But today it is not about survival. Hunting has changed to be about entertainment.

[Big Dave2]

They didn't and if they didn't kill they died, you and I have Cub Foods. Your survival isn't determined on whether or not you kill a deer, period.

Next.

But you are missing the point. My survival may not be on the line but hunting for food can still be the main reason I hunt. Someone asked about the tradition of hunting and there is no doubt that the tradition of hunting was all about the food. For some of us that is what it is still about. It's the same reason I fish, it's the same reason I grow a garden, it's the same reason I smoke my own meat instead of going to famous dave's.

Next.

[PurpleFloyd]

Problem is in one square mile we've got 18 deer and 5 are bucks, one of which is over 3, we cull a large amount of our young bucks. Wasn't saying the entire article was relevant to APR, it's not, just a few good tidbits to digest.

How about if we have one square mile and less than one deer? part of science is understanding you cannot apply one set of parameters to every possible scenario and expect to get the same results. And if you read the article and cherry pick a few tidbits to try to support your theory while disregaring the rest, that is not good science.

[Big Dave2]

Doesn't matter either that you favorite lake has stunted walleyes because of over harvest either I suppose.

How can they dare to tell us how many fish to keep, not allowing us to shoot hen pheasants, wear a seat belt, but god forbid if they tell you not to shoot a spike buck . . . the world must be coming to an end.

For the record, I'm not in favor of seatbelt laws but that's another discussion that we've already had.(as if we've never had THIS discussion before)

The other 2 laws you cite, fish limits and hen pheasants being illegal to kill are example of laws that are in place to help keep the population of that particular game animal at a level to support hunting or fishing. They have nothing to do with growing trophy appendages.

[Big Dave2]

But today it is not about survival. Hunting has changed to be about entertainment.

Traditionally hunting was about survival, today hunting is about entertainment.

And you wonder why so many opponents of APR and QDM say that these things will be the ruination of hunting? You take the act of killing an animal and turn it into "entertainment" and wonder why the rest of the non-hunting society doesn't understand the sport of hunting?

[Jameson]

...I maybe can't tell you every "traditional aspect of hunting" but I can tell you what was not a traditional aspect of hunting and that is antler size....

So, if Science says we should reduce the buck harvest, you are with me on a buck lottery?

[Jameson]

The act of hunting an animal. It is not about surviving anymore, is it?

[Big Dave2]

So, if Science says we should reduce the buck harvest, you are with me on a buck lottery?

What science? The science of manufacturers making more money off of deer hunters by whipping them up into a frenzy over horn porn?