APR 2013?

[Scott K]

What regulations have been put on to stop you from shooting a big rack?

[mntatonka]

What regulations have been put on to stop you from shooting a big rack?

the standard response would be "not having APR means guys like you can shoot the small bucks before they get big, which means I can't ever see a big one"

[Scott K]

I personally think if you want to see more big bucks in the woods, stop shooting the big bucks that are in the woods. Then the herd will be so healthy. Since it is so much better to have older deer, and it is healthier for the herd, why not have the point restriction be, that you cant shoot a buck that is bigger then 4 points per side? Then we will have a lot more bigger bucks in the woods, the herd will be so healthy, they will never die. Then when you are in stand, you will be smiling from ear to ear, that you can see so many big deer. Win Win for everyone!

[flipper]

I personally think if you want to see more big bucks in the woods, stop shooting the big bucks that are in the woods. Then the herd will be so healthy. Since it is so much better to have older deer, and it is healthier for the herd, why not have the point restriction be, that you cant shoot a buck that is bigger then 4 points per side? Then we will have a lot more bigger bucks in the woods, the herd will be so healthy, they will never die. Then when you are in stand, you will be smiling from ear to ear, that you can see so many big deer. Win Win for everyone!

Ding Ding Ding....We have another Winner!

[PurpleFloyd]

I personally think if you want to see more big bucks in the woods, stop shooting the big bucks that are in the woods. Then the herd will be so healthy. Since it is so much better to have older deer, and it is healthier for the herd, why not have the point restriction be, that you cant shoot a buck that is bigger then 4 points per side? Then we will have a lot more bigger bucks in the woods, the herd will be so healthy, they will never die. Then when you are in stand, you will be smiling from ear to ear, that you can see so many big deer. Win Win for everyone!

That is what I have been saying. Shoot the smaller "Eater" bucks and leave the big ones to do the breeding and balance the herd.

With trail cams and tech like it is today you can just take a picture of the big one and have a replica made for the wall. Shoot the small ones for sausage.

[Jameson]

Great, so now the the herd went from unbalanced one way, to unbalanced the other way.

[tfran123]

I personally think if you want to see more big bucks in the woods, stop shooting the big bucks that are in the woods. Then the herd will be so healthy. Since it is so much better to have older deer, and it is healthier for the herd, why not have the point restriction be, that you cant shoot a buck that is bigger then 4 points per side? Then we will have a lot more bigger bucks in the woods, the herd will be so healthy, they will never die. Then when you are in stand, you will be smiling from ear to ear, that you can see so many big deer. Win Win for everyone!

It's beyond you, I get it. Pretty darn easy to shoot young bucks and thus the reason to further protect what is the easiest animal in the woods to kill. Without protection you won't many age classes represented beyond 1.5.

Much of your other posts are so far fetched I'm not sure where to start so I'll let you continue on. Enjoy.

[TruthWalleyes]

You guys need to get in your trucks and drive to antlerland.

I travel no less than 2hrs in any direction to deer hunt.

I fish often more than 2hrs away to get to trophy fisheries.

Too much horn lov'n going on here. Time to go FIND your deer and quit looking in your back 40.

[SmellEsox]

Scott and Purple, that is exactly what we are doing now. Everyone shoots the young bucks and the big bucks are left. The only problem is nearly all the young bucks get shot so none make it to maturity. What would be different?

And it is the current regs that account for this age structure. So yes, that is why APR guys want it different.

And please quit with the extreme posts. No APR guy expects it to be like a highly managed game farm in Iowa. But it could be much better than our present population structure. Heck, just having more 2.5 year olds would make it much more interesting in the woods. And don't worry, with the exception of maybe the first year, you'll still get plenty of venison.

[SmellEsox]

TW, why should you have to drive 2 hours, or apply for a special hunt, or go to the SE, or go out of state to find a big deer? At least you are admitting that there is a lack of big deer in many areas.

[B. Amish]

Scott and Purple, that is exactly what we are doing now. Everyone shoots the young bucks and the big bucks are left....

...And please quit with the extreme posts.

[tfran123]

You guys need to get in your trucks and drive to antlerland.

I travel no less than 2hrs in any direction to deer hunt.

I fish often more than 2hrs away to get to trophy fisheries.

Too much horn lov'n going on here. Time to go FIND your deer and quit looking in your back 40.

Really? So you like trophy fish, why? Are they more fun to catch? More of a challenge perhaps?

Could it be possible that that deer hunting is similar in some respects? Yep, it's not catch and release but getting a trophy is more enjoyable to some. Hard to do when some groups of people go into an area and cull the majority of the young bucks. What's so hard for you to understand, you seem like you should grasp this stuff?

I travel two hours to hunt, what's the big deal. Put in my time as well, is it easy? Nope, wouldn't want it to be. And who says its all about the horns? Don't put words in our mouth, perhaps we just want to outsmart a mature buck. That animal might not have a big rack. My last deer was a 220 pound 8 pt and his rack was nothing pretty but sure was more enjoyable to me to chase this 6 year old for two years before I got him.

Try and see the bigger picture and don't paint everyone with the same broad brush.

[mntatonka]

Scott and Purple, that is exactly what we are doing now. Everyone shoots the young bucks and the big bucks are left. The only problem is nearly all the young bucks get shot so none make it to maturity. What would be different?

And it is the current regs that account for this age structure. So yes, that is why APR guys want it different.

And please quit with the extreme posts. No APR guy expects it to be like a highly managed game farm in Iowa. But it could be much better than our present population structure. Heck, just having more 2.5 year olds would make it much more interesting in the woods. And don't worry, with the exception of maybe the first year, you'll still get plenty of venison.

Show me the data that says "nearly all" of the 1.5 year old male deer are getting shot. Nearly all implies somewhere in the 90% range, and statistically that's simply not possible. And I'm not talking about data in other states, or anecdotes from wildlife groups.

Simply put, there's absolutely no data anywhere in Minnesota that can say what percentage of yearling bucks are shot in a year. In order to do that, we'd have to send a tooth sample of every buck harvested, much like we do with bears. With that data, you could make a reasonably accurate calculation of the age classes that are being harvested the most, and what percentage those are of the overall population. So stop saying we shoot nearly all of the 1.5's without APR's in place, it's simply not true.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

and around and around we go...... where will it stop? No one really knows.....

[mntatonka]

Really? So you like trophy fish, why? Are they more fun to catch? More of a challenge perhaps?

Could it be possible that that deer hunting is similar in some respects? Yep, it's not catch and release but getting a trophy is more enjoyable to some. Hard to do when some groups of people go into an area and cull the majority of the young bucks. What's so hard for you to understand, you seem like you should grasp this stuff?

I travel two hours to hunt, what's the big deal. Put in my time as well, is it easy? Nope, wouldn't want it to be. And who says its all about the horns? Don't put words in our mouth, perhaps we just want to outsmart a mature buck. That animal might not have a big rack. My last deer was a 220 pound 8 pt and his rack was nothing pretty but sure was more enjoyable to me to chase this 6 year old for two years before I got him.

Try and see the bigger picture and don't paint everyone with the same broad brush.

Did you get him aged? How do you know he was 6 years old?

[tfran123]

Pulled his lower jaw, so yes and do it with all my deer.

[picksbigwagon]

Okay, I will enter into this forray, even though the same arguments are being made over and over and over and over and over and over and....

The DNR looks at the overall deer density of the state correct? Simply biology tells us that if we start stacking more animals on that land that has a specific capicity for healthy deer, why then do we want to throw that number out of whack by allowing an age and gender group to be untouched? Will that not increase the population? Will this increase in population have a negative affect on the herd? (yes it will) So when the negative impact on the area's carrying capicity is felt, the answer is to shoot more doe's? Which could conceivably crash an entire population since does need to mature to have off spring.....

When I see terms like: "More Balanced age structure" I want to see statistics of current age structure in MN.....Heck, any state that borders us! "We need older bucks" to me reads "We need bigger antlers" and to say differently is a lie, you know it, we know it!

For the past five years, I have been moderating this forum and yes, I have changed my opinion on this topic (hmm, I think I mentioned this on page 3 or something like that, and I feel many others on this site have as well. I agree letting the little ones walk is a good plan, but I fail to see the need for legistlation. For those wanting more state wide legislation, or as Smellessox said above "no one expects it to be like a Highly Managed game farm in Iowa" that is exactly what you want, a highly managed game farm of immense proportions.

I have let this "discussion" go this fall because I realize that if I shut it down, it will pop up over and over and over and over and over and over and......There comes a time when we need to realize that opinions sometimes change, sometimes they don't

[B. Amish]

Hard to do when some groups of people go into an area and cull the majority of the young bucks. What's so hard for you to understand, you seem like you should grasp this stuff?...

...Try and see the bigger picture and don't paint everyone with the same broad brush.

[tfran123]

The vast majority of our buck harvest is comprised of 1.5 year old deer, that is fact. Nobody should say that most of the 1.5's are shot, that data is not available so you are correct.

[tfran123]

Wanted to see if the icon made me feel cute or funny, nope.

[picksbigwagon]

The vast majority of our buck harvest is comprised of 1.5 year old deer, that is fact. Nobody should say that most of the 1.5's are shot, that data is not available so you are correct.

even I realize the necessity of a link for the study that came to this conclussion from the DNR

[muskiemanAD]

I have seen the little gif of a horse getting beat with a stick. Someone put that up and end this thread. Kind of like trying to convert someone to your political party, it ain't happening.....

[TruthWalleyes]

TW, why should you have to drive 2 hours, or apply for a special hunt, or go to the SE, or go out of state to find a big deer? At least you are admitting that there is a lack of big deer in many areas.

Read long post on previous page.

I travel to those two areas. SE & SW mn because I have plentiful private land opportunities in both areas. Friends in one direction. Family in the other. I do save my buck tag for a mature deer. Don't ask anyone else to though.

Haven't tagged a buck in many years... I like does but will shoot a mature buck if the opportunity presents itself with a 100% kill shot.

[mntatonka]

The vast majority of our buck harvest is comprised of 1.5 year old deer, that is fact. Nobody should say that most of the 1.5's are shot, that data is not available so you are correct.

You contradicted yourself in two sentences. First you say the majority of our buck harvest is 1.5 year old deer, and then you say no one should say that most of the 1.5's are shot because the data isn't available. Which is it?

Post the study that suggests we shoot a majority of 1.5's, and I'll point out that it was based on a tiny sample size of a limited hunt. It may very well be a fact that the majority of our statewide harvest is 1.5 year old deer, but there's no data to prove such a claim. Our only large amount of data has 4 categories: females, males, fawn female, and fawn male.

[SmellEsox]

I think it is very possible in heavily hunted areas to have 90+% of yearling and 2.5 year old bucks killed every year. How many mature bucks per square mile do you think there are in MN? In my area there are typically 10-12 deer per sq. mile pre-fawn. How many of those are 3.5 year old or older bucks on average?

[tfran123]

Not perfect but do read, this is PA, you'll note hunters were killing 80% of the bucks (majority were yearlings) prior to APR.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/ser...13_20090806_pdf

Doubt we are that different in non APR areas.

[tfran123]

Slow down and read it again, no I didn't contradict myself.

[mntatonka]

Not perfect but do read, this is PA, you'll note hunters were killing 80% of the bucks (majority were yearlings) prior to APR.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/ser...13_20090806_pdf

Doubt we are that different in non APR areas.

And yet there's not even data to back up their 80% claim other than on "hundreds of collared deer". Not exactly a large sample size. I don't believe Pennsylvania takes any data regarding age of deer harvested either. Not to mention their entire goal was for large buck production, not to reduce antlerless population the way Minnesota's was designed.

[Getanet]

I can't find the 2012 Deer Harvest Report, but in 2011 no zone had a hunter success rate for legal bucks over 17.3%. I find it hard to believe that 90% of anything is getting killed each year.

[tfran123]

If you hate the concept you'll just continue to see it your way. Google is your friend and if you are interested the data is out there.