The Model 12 Winchester still the greatest?

[Ufatz]

Just for something to discuss I toss this out. Most of you guys grew up with the 870's and many still shoot them today. But I grew up with a Model 12 Winchester and used one until I was maybe 20 years old. I have always thought the Mod. 12 was a better made and more dependable shotgun then the 870, even though I accept and understand the popularity of the latter. Only real "improvement" I saw was the the double slid bars rather than one on the Mod.12 I have shot a bazillion rounds of trap, skeet and sporting clays with guys shooting various Mod 12's and let me tell you, I've seen guys rap off two and three shots faster than you'd believe with a Mod 12. And of course there are many absolutely gorgeous Mod 12's out there.

So.....which is better? Why? Why did the 870 more or less replace the beautiful Mod 12. I only shot an 870 one time and to me it was like using some sort of farm implement.

Whadda you guys think?

[Gordie]

Mod 12 is a awesome gun and it was a feature gun in the movie Bullet to show how easy it would be to conceal a shot gun and the ease of putting it together. the mod 12 is a work horse but take one apart side by side to a 870 and you will notice a difference by how many parts the mod 12 has.

Strip it down to the bare nothings in the field and again you will see the differences and complexity of the Mod 12

I would still choose the 870 over the mod 12 because of simplicity of how it is put together.

I still love the 12 and like using them ,but I prefer the 870.

[Archerysniper]

I love my Model 12's,My normal grouse gun is a model 12 16ga. I have a very nice collection of them field,trap and skeet grades the only one I need is the 28ga. I even have a model 42 .410

With the model 12's their is no trigger reset so if you hold the trigger down it will go off when the slide locks.

How about the Rem model 31's? They tried beating Winchester model 12's but came up just short. Yeah I collect them too

[Ufatz]

A guy will never know true joy until he has walked a few rounds of skeet with a Mod 42/410!!! And a high grade .28 guage will brighten anybodys day!

I don't dispute that the 870 is basically a simpler weapon. I have never taken the two guns down side by side but I have heard that many times: that the 870 is a simpler gun. I do not and will not knock a gun so many guys know and love, but I feel the Mod 12 is hands down a better crafted and smoother shooting shotgun. My late uncle had, are ya ready for this, a 1925 model 12 in nickel steel receiver, 25" barrel, mod choke 16 guage he bought new in 1925. There is no way you would believe the ducks and pheasants he piled up with that little gun. Many times I watched him stand up and Bang Bang Bang....down came three big redheads!

The end of another true story.....took place about 1951! I think! Ha!

[Archerysniper]

A guy will never know true joy until he has walked a few rounds of skeet with a Mod 42/410!!!

It is a blast chasing roosters with that gun,it brings a smile to my face just thinking about it. And oh my that thing can throw a tight pattern. I have dropped a few roosters that the head was taken clean off.

[gspman]

I never understood why the Model 12 was so revered by the gun writers and the 870 was a second class citizen to them. There's a reason the 870 is the best selling shotgun of all time and it's not because it sucks. Both are dependable and durable - either one will last 2 lifetimes. But I grew up with an 870 (a lefty model even) and appreciate the simplicity of it and think it just plain looks better than a Model 12. But then I've never been a Winchester guy. Having said that, if you handed me a Model 12 I'd shoot it and be happy. But at the risk of being snobbish, these are just pump shotguns so... meh... To each his own.

[Ufatz]

Well G'man....I think the gun writers-and all others who owned and admired them-thought the model 12 was a beautiful piece of work; smooth, dependable and attractive, especially in the higher grades. All that wonderful workmanship and complexity is what brought about it's demise though.

As stated earlier: I have nothing against the 870....but compared to the model 12 it is just a gun....just a machine made pump shotgun. It has no soul.

And you're right-you are a snob! Ha Ha Ha. But so you'll know, I have not owne nor used a model 12 in over fifty years. All doubles. But I have fond memories of the old model 12 and still admire it.

[harvey lee]

Owm them both and I would not take one over the other. Both have survived the test of time.

[paceman]

My father in law has a beautiful model 12 that he is thinking of selling. I am first in line if he does!

[gspman]

I often wondered that had the 870 had been introduced first, would the gun writers have heaped the praise on it and would the Model 12 have been the bridesmaid. I do think the mechanical inner workings of the Model 12 drew their interest more and I think the bluing was better on the 12.

Our family has one of those Model 42 .410's and it is a neat little gun. As a kid I thought about taking it apart once and upon looking at it thought better of it. I was pretty good at taking things apart but I could see that I'd be in over my head. It was the putting it back together part that I sometimes had trouble with.

Yeah, with certain things I am a snob. With other things not so much.

[Ufatz]

I think we have to keep in mind that it was not the GUN WRITERS that made the reputation of the model 12-it was the people who owned and used it. THEN the gun writers got into the act. And when the model 12 came along it was the refinement of the model 97 and others so there was much lead time and development. Maybe Remington took a look at the market and thought it was time to give the mod 12 some competition. And they did a fine job of it as we all know. While the mod 12 is a dependable and durable gun my guess is the 870 is every bit of that and more-based on the sheer number of them out there and the words of millions of users.

Who poster who said they are both good guns was right of course. I've not seen any truly high end fancy 870's but I have seen and even shot some pretty gorgeous mod 12's.

It's all good boys.....it's all good!! Ha Ha Ha Ha!

[rundrave]

can you shoot steel out of a Model 12? I don't dispute that they are both good guns, but for me personally I am shooting steel these days which makes the Model 12 useless in my cabinet.

Unfortunately I have a few older guns that wont get shot much anymore except for trap for the same reasons.

[Ufatz]

Great News!! There are several kinds of non-toxics on the market now that are safe in older guns. I shoot a 1935 Parker DHE a lot of the time on birds. And other special loads MADE for older guns. If you really like your model 12, and you should, bite the bullet (so to speak) and pop for some of these loads. No, they are not cheap. But how many times a day -realistically- are you firing the gun.

I simply would NOT miss the joy of shooting a shotgun I love just because the ammo cost me an 19-pack or a bottle of Makers Mark.

But hey!.....everybody has a buget. But DO check out the possibilities.

[Gordie]

can you shoot steel out of a Model 12? I don't dispute that they are both good guns, but for me personally I am shooting steel these days which makes the Model 12 useless in my cabinet.

Unfortunately I have a few older guns that wont get shot much anymore except for trap for the same reasons.

Yes you could shoot steel out of a mod 12 but you would have to see if it could be fitted which screw in chokes. I did this on a couple of older 870's and its like a new gun all over again.

[Ufatz]

I'm happy you were able to do that with your 870. But I would urge anybody planning to shoot steel through an older model 12 to have a long discussion with a competent gunsmith. My first thought is that the dimension at the muzzle of a model 12 may not lend itself to what you had done with your 870.

But....I am no mettalurgist and not gunsmith. I would NOT shoot steel through an old model 12....but that's just me.

And you know old guys get funny about things sometimes. LOL

[Gordie]

Its about barrel thickness and they make thin wall choke tubes for this reason. I have seen it done and that's what was done on mine.

Why put away a perfectly good shotgun I mean there is always room for another gun but you can always make the best of a old gun by updating it. Yes by all means talk to a gunsmith about adding a choke system to your old gun, it only make the gun more useable

[JPenny]

Both are great shotguns. I've owned a couple of 870's in the past and harvested a lot of game with them. But there is something about hunting with my grandfather's model 12 that the 870 just doesn't have. Yes, I'm old school and am now a member of the senior society and I've always appreciated antiques. And if I'm waxing nostalgia, so be it. But there is something about dropping a rooster with a 100+ year old gun that excites me.

[Ufatz]

You have discovered the Model 12, a beautifully designed and executed shotgun, has adds charm to function. It is slick and smooth-if it has some miles on it- and it feels totally natural in your hands. And it has one thing the 870, practical and durable as it may be, will never have. An old well worm Model 12 has a soul. And a newer model 12 has class.

A model 870 is a tough, durable hunting tool. A model 12 is a tough, durable hunting instrument.

Long may they both serve. We are fortunate to have them both available to us.

[BoxMN]

Grandpa had a Model 12, Dad used it until he got an 870. Then my brother shot the 12, until he got a BPS. Now my Uncle has the 12, and I am glad I did not like the 12, not shooting it, nor really looking at it. Granted, my Grandpa was a tall guy, so the stock was long, it never came up great. The 870 of my Dad's (that I have now) and the subsequent Wingmaster that I bought, both came up great, and I think the profile of the 870 is just a much prettier shotgun, shape-wise. The 12 is too long and lanky and the forearm too thin. Just my thoughts tho.

And I was one of the 2 people to ever have a problem with a Wingmaster (carrier problem) so I swapped to a Gold and could not be happier. But I still take Dad's (early 70's) Wingmaster out for grouse now and then. If just feels so darn good.

Love the Model 12 talk, the admiration for it, but no thank you on actually using one. Glad my uncle is enjoying my Grandpa's

[Archerysniper]

Here's a little info on some of these guns and they battle between the 2 companies.

Winchester Model 12 or as some call it the 1912.

Type Shotgun

Place of origin United States

Service history

Used by United States Army, United States Navy, United States Marine Corps,

Wars World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War

Production history

Designer John Browning

Thomas Crosley Johnson

Manufacturer Winchester Repeating Arms Company

Produced 1912–1963, with special production runs until 2006

Number built nearly 2,000,000

Variants See text

Specifications

Caliber 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 20 gauge, 28 gauge

Action Pump-action

Feed system 6-round tubular magazine (see text for more details)

The Model 1912 (shortened to Model 12 in 1919) was the next step from the Winchester Model 1897 hammer-fired shotgun, which in turn had evolved from the earlier Winchester Model 1893 shotgun. The Model 12 was designed by Winchester engineer Thomas Crosley Johnson, and was based in part on the M1893/97 design by John Browning. It was initially available in 20 gauge only (12 and 16 gauge guns were not sold until 1914). The Model 12 was the first truly successful internal hammer pump-action shotgun ever produced. Its tubular magazine was loaded through the bottom of the gun. Empty shotgun shells ejected to the right. Depending on the particular wooden transformer plug installed in the magazine, two, three, or four shells could be stored in the tubular magazine. The magazine holds six 2¾-inch 12 ga. shells, when no plug is installed, unlike most shotguns of today which hold four or five shells. With forged and machined steel parts, the ultimate reason for discontinuation in 1963 was that it was too expensive to produce at a competitive price. The primary competition at this time came from the much less expensive Remington Model 870, which had been introduced in 1950. The majority of "modern" Model 12 shotguns manufactured after the 1930s were chambered for 2¾-inch shotgun shells only, although some specialized models such as the Heavy Duck Gun Model 12 were chambered for 3" Super Speed and Super X shells (basically a 3" magnum). Some early 16 gauge Model 12's, however, were chambered for 2 9/16-inch shotgun shells, the 12 gauge guns had chambers that were 2⅝" and the 20 gauges had chambers that were 2½". To add further confusion, some of these early Model 12's have subsequently been modified, with their chambers lengthened to accept 2¾-inch shotgun shells, while others remain in their factory-stock chamber lengths. Careful inspection by a gunsmith is always recommended to determine whether or not it is safe to fire a modern 2¾-inch shotgun shell in older Model 12's.

Special commemorative examples were nonetheless produced by Winchester after 1963 through 2006, through specialized gun collector purchase programs, but the Perfect Repeater shotgun was never mass-produced after 1963. The Winchester factory announced a complete closing of the factory facility in January 2006, thus ending the Model 12's long and illustrious career at the age of 95 years.

Remington model 31 the first attempt to beat the model 12 by Remington

Remington Model 31

Type Shotgun

Place of origin United States

Production history

Designer C.C. Loomis

John Pedersen

Designed 1931

Manufacturer Remington Arms

Produced 1931 - 1949

Number built 196,000

Variants Model 31

Specifications

Cartridge 12ga, 16ga, 20ga

Action Pump

Effective range 20 m.

Feed system tubular magazine

Sights Bead, vent rib optional

While the Remington Model 17 enjoyed some success, a solid, 12-gauge featuring side-ejection was needed to compete with Winchester. C.C. Loomis sized up the Model 17 and adapted it for side ejection. The Model 31 was Remington's first side ejecting pump-action shotgun. Stocks were walnut with checkered walnut forend and later changed to a ribbed forend. The Model 31 was made in three gauges with 121,000 12-gauge models made and 75,000 16- and 20-gauge examples also produced. Despite being well received, sales still lagged far behind the Winchester. Remington went back to the drawing board and designed the Model 870; this shotgun matched the durability of the Model 12 at a significantly lower cost. Despite the overwhelming success of the 870, many shotgun connoisseurs consider the Model 31 to be the ne plus ultra of pump shotguns with its "ball-bearing" slide action.[3]

The Model 31 was later used as a basis for the modernized and simplified Mossberg 500, 590, 835 and Maverick 88 shotguns. The biggest differences being the use of aluminum alloy receivers in most variants.

Remington 870

Type Shotgun

Place of origin United States

Service history

Used by See Users

Production history

Designer L.Ray Crittendon, Phillip Haskell, Ellis Hailston, G.E. Pinckney

Designed 1951

Manufacturer Remington Arms

Produced 1951–present[1]

Number built 10,000,000+[2]

Variants Wingmaster, Express, Marine, SPS, SPS-T, XCS, TAC, Super Mag,MCS

Specifications

Weight 7.0 lb (3.2 kg) to 8.0 lb (3.6 kg)

Length 37.25 in (946 mm) to 50.5 in (1,280 mm)

Barrel length 18 in (460 mm) to 30 in (760 mm)

Cartridge 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 20 gauge, 28 gauge, or .410 bore

Action Pump-action

Feed system 4+1 to 7+1 round internal tube magazine

Sights Bead, twin bead, adjustable open sights, or ghost ring (all iron sights). Also cantilever and receiver-mounts for scopes[3]

The Remington 870 was the fourth major design in a series of Remington pump shotguns. John Pedersen designed the fragile Remington Model 10 (and later the improved Remington Model 29). John Browning designed the Remington Model 17 (which was later adapted by Ithaca into the Ithaca 37), which served as the basis for the Remington 31. The Model 31 was well liked,[4] but struggled for sales in the shadow of the Winchester Model 12. Remington sought to correct that in 1949 by introducing a modern, streamlined, rugged, reliable, and relatively inexpensive shotgun – the 870. It was an adaptation of the Remington 11–48 autoloader, itself an adaptation of the John Browning-designed Remington 11.

Sales of the 870 have been steady. They reached 2 million guns by 1973 (ten times the number of Model 31 shotguns it replaced). By 1996, spurred by sales of the basic "Express" models, which were added as a lower cost alternative to the original Wingmaster line, sales topped seven million guns. On April 13, 2009 the ten millionth Model 870 was produced, and the 870 holds the record for best-selling shotgun in history.[5]

Design details

The 870 features a bottom-loading, side ejecting receiver, tubular magazine under the barrel, dual action bars, internal hammer, and a bolt which locks into an extension in the barrel. The action, receiver, trigger system, safety catch and slide release catch of the Remington Model 870 shotgun are similar to those used on the Remington Model 7600 series pump-action centerfire rifles and carbines. The basic trigger group design was first used in the automatic 11–48.[6] 20 gauge stocks will also interchange. Several parts of the 870 will interchange with the semi-automatic Remington 1100 and 11–87.

The original 870 models were offered with fixed chokes. In 1986 Remington introduced the new Remington "Rem Choke" system of screw-in chokes (also fitted to Remington model 1100 auto-loading shotguns at the same time). Initially, the Rem Chokes were offered on barrel lengths of 21", 26" and 28". It was not offered on 30" barrels, deer guns, target guns or as a retrofit.

Production 870s for over 30 years had a design whereby a user could either "short stroke" the action – not pull the forearm all the way back while cycling the action as they should – or fail to press a shell all the way into the magazine when loading such that the shell latch did not engage the shell, and such actions could tie up the gun.[7] This was caused by the shell which slipped out of the magazine under the bolt in the receiver to bind the action, requiring rough treatment of the action or even disassembly to clear by the uninitiated. The potential issue was resolved with the introduction of the "Flexi Tab" carrier. Guns with this modification can be identified by the "U"-shaped cut-out on the carrier, visible from below the gun. The cut-out allows the carrier to flex when the shell presses on it without binding the action.

Variants

There are hundreds of variations of the Remington 870 in 12, 16, 20, 28 gauges and .410 bore. From the original fifteen models offered, Remington currently produces dozens of models for civilian, law enforcement, and military sales. 870 variants can be grouped into:

Wingmaster – Blued steel with high gloss or satin walnut stocks. They have been offered in Skeet, Trap, and field configurations. Originally the basic Wingmaster was chambered for 2 3/4" rounds and came with a fixed choke, and the 3" chambered versions were designated Magnum models. Models built after 1986 offer the RemChoke Interchangeable choke tube system, and the 12 and 20 gauge versions are chambered in 3" for either 2 3/4" or 3" shells. Prior to the introduction of the "Police" model 870, altered Wingmasters were popular among law enforcement.

Police – Blued or Parkerized steel with satin walnut, stained hardwood, or synthetic stocks. These models feature a stronger sear spring and magazine spring, and they receive extra care and inspections during assembly. The Police models also often have an extended tube magazine.

Marine – Nickel plated with synthetic stocks.

Express – Matte blue/black bead-blasted with laminated hardwood or synthetic stocks and chambered for 2 3/4" and 3" 12 or 20 gauge shotshells. All Expresses have been chambered in 3" in 12 and 20 gauge, but markings have varied.

Super Mag – Chambered for 3½" 12 gauge shotshells.

MCS (Modular Combat Shotgun) – A new modular version of the M870 which can be quickly modified with different barrels, magazine tubes, and stocks for different purposes, such as urban combat and door breaching.

Chinese M870

China has made unlicensed M870 copies by Norinco as the Norinco HP9-1 and used by the People's Liberation Army as the standard shotgun.[citation needed]

The M870 copy is a widely-distributed design no longer under patent protection, and most parts interchange freely. In the United States, where Norinco products are specifically non-importable, this gun is imported and sold under the names Norinco Hawk 982 and Interstate Hawk 982.[citation needed]

[Ufatz]

Thank you for the post. Always nice to deal with facts, even though there is a lot of emotion and personal perceptions that go into selecting a firearm. Not to mention family traditions and memories. This has been a nice, useful and pleasant exchange, don't ya think?

[Gordie]

Ufatz you hit the firing pin with one of your last posts and that its great we have both.

BoxMN also loaded a round for the 870 as well and I know that the mod 12 that my dad had is made for a taller man than I and the 1956 870 wingmaster that my grandfather gave me fits my shorter frame perfectly like it did him.

I love shooting both gun and they are both built exceptionally well I really can't say one is better than the other ,its just that I prefer a 870.

The Remington model 31 never really took hold and it defiantly was not in the running with the mod 12.

Another great shotgun was the Winchester mod 97 and I still know a few guys that hunt with them also. I'm hoping to add one to my collection soon.

[PurpleFloyd]

Nah, the Winchester 1200 was and is a better gun. I have one of the model 120 Rangers that I bought at Scheels in Mankato in the early 80's and it has been a workhorse taking me through my teens shooting rabbits, squirrels, pheasants, deer, grouse, woodcock and anything else I cared to hunt. I sanded the stock down many years ago and stained it with an awesome green dye and shot 20 plus coats of lacquer on it as well as giving it a new duracoat finish. It now wears a slug barrel full time and my son has affectionately named it the green monster lol. Love that gun. I believe I paid 150 dollars for it brand new with the winchoke tubes.

[Ufatz]

I doubt you will find anybody who will agree with you that the Winchester 1200 is a "better gun" than the original model 12. Winchester made no bones about the fact it was a low cost replacement and started out in limited configurations.

It's great you found one you liked and that treated you well. And it sounds like you tricked it out purdy fancy too. And its even better that it is still going strong and doing its job.

The model 1200 and model 1300 were not designed to "replace" the old model 12....just to allow Winchester to make a cheaper pump gun. And for a while it did.

[Archerysniper]

I agree with Ufatz,the 1200 and 1300 was their attempt at making a cheaper pump gun to compete with the 870 and the Mossbergs,whoever for me they were made to cheap and the 870 was a better gun design. That is just my opinion

[PurpleFloyd]

I don't know. There are probably 5 1200 and 1300 platform Winchesters in our deer camp and one 870 and none of them would trade for the 870. granted, the wood isn't exactly renowned for it's fine grain patterns but I have the ability to make a lot of marginal woods stand out so that isn't a concern any more than it is with my 10/22. The dual extractors and the speed pump or whatever name they market it as is a sound gun. Although I understand how one can get misty over nostalgia and the memories of youth.

Now, if you want to talk great vintage shotguns lets talk about the Browning hunchback A5 in 16 gauge, Sweet 16.

[Gordie]

The A-5 is in a class all its own and the reason the model twelve is so good is because of designer John Browning.

[Ufatz]

Hey Gordie-to be entirely correct, the model12 was designed by a Winchester engineer named (I think) Crosley and he BASED it around an original design by John Moses Browning. And of course you are correct that JMB did the A-5.

Personally I always thought the A-5 was a noisy, clanking mechanical nightmare but one of the most natural pointing and dependable shotgus on the market. I've owned a couple through the years, a Sweet 16 and a delightful little 20 guage and two or three Light 12's but they were not my "huntin' guns". I started off with a Browning Superposed waaaayyyy back when and it was all S'posed and other doubles after that.

But there is no question the big ol' humpback was one helluva shotgun and, to tell the truth, it still is despite all the modern plastic and camno and black tin shotguns out there now. Egads, such abominations-no heart; no soul. Ha Ha Ha

[Gordie]

Yes you are correct UF and it was the M1893/97 that Crosley followed, It just shows that JMB had a hand in most of the weapons at that time

[JeffB]

I started out with a used and abused 870. It was my Dad's first shotgun and when I was old enough he got a new one and gave me his old one. The shotgun never failed me and looking back it was a great shot gun. I always saw the Browning A5 as my dream gun. I eventually got my Grandpa's Browning A5 and certainly wasn't disappointed. It's still my favorite shotgun I own. I normally use a newer SBII, but still bring out the A5 for a few nice day pheasant walks each year. The Browning A5 is my all time favorite shotgun followed by the 870.