campsite reservation system

[h8go4s]

Xplorer:

My understanding was that the limit is 320 developed sites, which includes campsites, back country sites, day use sites, houseboat sites. I could be wrong, but that would be a first.

[Xplorer]

Good info to know then. I'm going to try to put a tally on a total tomorrow (140 miles on the sled today has me worn out )

I know of a few sites that are not on any maps that are finished, and will contact the NPS to find out which ones were done/completed last year. I was told that minimal new construction would occur last year because they were adding a second bear box to the sites that had just one.

I can tell you that this was done on every campsite I visited on Nam this last summer. Very nice, since the wardens are getting verrrry picky about having coolers in a box.

[Stick in Mud]

Interesting thread, and thanks to all of you for keeping tabs on it and going to the meetings/sending emails to get more information. I'm sorry I only heard about this--I don't fish these lakes that often and therefore don't keep up on this thread.

What do you all think about the price for one night of camping? I don't mind spending a little bit, but....the proposed nightly rate seems pretty steep to me.

[h8go4s]

I agree that $20 per night seems high. Mn state parks are $12-14 for "rustic" sites (pit toilets, no showers). Mn state forest campsites are $12. Superior National Forest campsites run $10-$18,except for "rustic" sites, which are free. Yellowstone National Park sites are $12.

There is still one public meeting to be held in Duluth. It was originally scheduled earlier this winter but postponed because of weather. So far, no word of the new date, but if I can make it, I plan to attend.

[Stick in Mud]

Yeah, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever paying for these "services." It's expensive to enforce the laws, and upkeep needs to be done, and stuff ain't cheap. I was just curious about the price.... and I'm curious about the cost of enforcement in a place like Namakan/Crane Lake vs. the BWCA. I know nothing about the dynamics of budgets in these departments / places, but from an outsider's perspective, it's a bit strange.

Maybe some of you have some insight into the details of where these costs go? I'd be happy to pay more for a night of camping if I could be assured (as best as possible) that it was going towards things that improved/maintained the quality of the resource.

[chris63]

Budget office numbers for NPS are listed as follows:2012 fyb(fiscal year budget)(enacted)2.98 BILLION.2013(requested)2.99BILLION.Bloated personnel offices with layers upon layers of bureaucracy.Operating enforcement numbers(dollars) for just VNP would be very tough to figure out.This is our system like it or lump it!c63

[h8go4s]

The VNP website now has a summary of the proposed reservation system posted. I don't know when they added it, but probably since January.

http://www.nps.gov/voya/parkmgmt/proposed-campsite-reservation-information.htm

[Xplorer]

Well, I read the plan proposal last night and have a couple personal observations. First, the penalty for cancelled/no-show reservations is too minimal. Essentially, you lose your reservation fee ($9 online) and one nights camping fee ($16-20) so we are only talking about $25-29 loss if you cancel less than 14 days prior to your reservation date.

I can see this leading to abuse, as there is only a $10 charge for a change to a reservation. I could reserve a prime site for 14 days and my wife could reserve the next 14 days for the same site. The day before mine is supposed to start, I look and see what the prime weather 5 days are out of that timeframe and call in and pay my $10 and change my trip to just those 5 days. When my wifes reservation comes up we do the same and choose 5 prime days out of the original 14.

Secondly it sounds as if some of the sites will be still on a first-come first-serve basis. "When the site is first-come, first-served, where does a visitor get the camping permit?

·The visitor can get the permit at any park visitor center's front desk. Not at park headquarters or the Crane Lake Ranger Station."

So now you will need to be at a visitor center during their open hours to get a FC/FS site permit, instead of having the self serve system used now. Bad deal in my opinion, as many times I have gone up after work and arrived after normal desk hours. Will they be staffing VC's for additional hours to accomodate this new requirement??

Lastly, whats with this "·Houseboat site fees are still under consideration". They should absolutly be paying a reduced fee for their site use, after all it costs money to establish and maintain those sites also.

My

As with anything, the devil will be in the details.

[Xplorer]

PS: I just reviewed the two official VNP camping maps (they include dayuse sites also) and came up with 264 established sites.

If the total max is 320, then that leaves 56 additional sites (of any kind) to be built before camping at non-designated places would be prohibited.

[FISHINGURU]

Sounds like a bunch of squeaky wheels getting some grease to me. There was nothing wrong with the old system, the best thing they could of done is just let people know which sites were already being occupied so no one wasted their time going there. Poor people that went there at peak times during peak hours that couldn't find a spot and gave up should have better preparation skills.

Now you have resorts concerned that people are out camping instead of staying at their resort? If you want more people to come to your resort then lower your prices.

Eventually you had to expect they would start charging to camp, I was thinking the same things when it was free "how long is this gonna last", "too good to be true", "nothing is for free any more" lol

[h8go4s]

"If the total max is 320, then that leaves 56 additional sites (of any kind) to be built"

And the impression I get is that the new ones will be weighted to houseboat sites, as they say there are more houseboats on the lakes now than there are sites.

Still waiting for them to announce the meeting in Duluth and hoping I can be there.

[Xplorer]

Unless I am out of town I will be there.

[Timber]

I have been hearing talk about the Forest Service thinking about including motor horsepower restrictions for the park. Anyone else hear this?

[chris63]

I haven't heard that but it wouldn't surprise me.On the recent or latest posting by the VNP officials nothing was mentioned of horsepower restrictions.c63

[h8go4s]

"I have been hearing talk about the Forest Service thinking about including motor horsepower restrictions for the park."

FYI, Voyageurs National Park is run by the Park Service, not the Forest Service. Show me one single statement by anyone in the National Park Service that would lead you to believe this. Bar talk . Totally unrealistic. There are dozens of guides, resorts and houseboat operators who would be affected by any such restriction, not to mention the tourists who would no longer frequent the area. The economy of the area would be devastated. Regardless of political affiliations, no one would support that change. And the Canadian side of the region would not support it either. Don't even try to compare it to the BWCA, either. That was a completely different era and political mindset and the BWCA is not a National Park. Different goals and missions. And have you seen the rigs the Park Service uses to service the park? They're not going to patrol the park in 16 ft boats with 25 hp motors.

[alg]

Do you know how many people were affected when it became a park? Cabin owners, resort owners, etc. Do you know how much taxes were paid by those cabin owners and resort owners, all lost to the local governments? Talk about local economy being devastated. What I am saying is that it can happen, and has happened. The Feds patrol the BWCA (since you brought it up) with canoes, so don't tell me they need their big rigs. And it doesn't matter what Canada thinks, they don't where the BWCA is concerned.

[chris63]

If I remember it was the Nixon administration that authorized the park in the early '70's.c63

[duckster]

There has been no mention of horsepower restrictions in the park someone has their info wrong.

Duckster

[fatfinger]

Any date for Duluth meeting? I miss our cabin! Btw, taxes back then weren't too bad at all.the park gave us $9600 for our cabin on 2-1/2 acres.wasn't nothin spectacular but the best memories I have.worst part was goin up campin and lookin at our cabin deteriorating for ten + years before it was tore down.

[M. dolomieui]

I am curious if anything has come out of discussions/meetings/etc. regarding this issue? Has a decision been made?

[Xplorer]

Funny thing. I called the main office at I Falls last friday and asked about the Duluth meeting. Its not going to happen. The person I spoke to said that there has been no new discussion since "sequestration" went into effect. As far as she knew, it was still planning on being implemented next year but that was about all she knew.

So if you want to voice your opinion/questions, I was told to send an email to the addy in the "contact us" box on the website.

[Down Deep]

I think a reservations system will eventually morph to a lottery system like in the BWCA. Do you get a specific site or are they just going to allow so many groups off the landings each day? What happens with all the non-official campsites? Are they going to be off-limits. Is the Park Police or staff going to go around and tag each campsite with a reservation form like they do in most National Park campgrounds? What happens when you arrive at your reserved site at 9:00 pm and it isn't vacant. In a campground it's easy to police, but 15 miles of water in the dark to reach a ranger is hazard. I think a better solution would be maintain a first come system and build a couple of hold over campgrounds near the landings for late arrivers or campers who couldn't find a site in the area they wanted.

[h8go4s]

I think a reservations system will eventually morph to a lottery system like in the BWCA. Do you get a specific site or are they just going to allow so many groups off the landings each day? (My understanding is that reservations will be for a specific campsite.) What happens with all the non-official campsites? Are they going to be off-limits. (Not until the maximum build-out of campsites in the VNP operating plan is reached, but they will be off-limits at that time. At this time there is no money available to build more campsites, but funds from camping fees could be used for that in the future.) Is the Park Police or staff going to go around and tag each campsite with a reservation form like they do in most National Park campgrounds? (I didn't hear any discussion of that at the meeting I went to.) What happens when you arrive at your reserved site at 9:00 pm and it isn't vacant. In a campground it's easy to police, but 15 miles of water in the dark to reach a ranger is hazard. (The VNP staff didn't seem to have a good handle on enforcement, especially considering wind-bound campers.) I think a better solution would be maintain a first come system and build a couple of hold over campgrounds near the landings for late arrivers or campers who couldn't find a site in the area they wanted. (You're a little late with that idea, and it introduces another set of problems.)

[duckster]

The reservation system is going to happen and be phased in over the next couple of years. There will be 30 sites along with group sites, handicapped sites and backcountry sites in 2014 and full implementation in 2015.

Duckster

[Xplorer]

duckster,

How and where did you find this info? Very curious as to if it was an official release, cause just a few weeks ago noone at the headquarters could (or maybe would) tell me anything about what had been decided.

Thanks, if this is how it goes down it does give time to figure out details like enforcement.

[duckster]

That is what the Ranger told me last weekend. said something will be coming out soon.

Duckster

[Xplorer]

I tried to look on the nps site under "proposed campsite reservation system" and it said that it was being worked on and unavailable.

I also emailed the Public Affairs Officer for the park asking for specifics on what was happening. We'll see if I get a reply.

[Minnow Slinger]

Duckster has the story right on. This IS happening in the way he describes. The park simply cannot provide free campsites anymore.

[Xplorer]

Some Official info on this would be nice tho. Its a huge change that has been in the works for years, but Reservations are supposed to start being able to be made in 4 months and there is no info on how its going to work? What sites will be reservable, and on what lakes. 30 sites between the 4 lakes is only about 7 per lake, not much of an impact. Will they be the "prime" sites, and how will they decide which 30 are used next year.

Waiting on a response from NPS.

[Xplorer]

Here is the reply email that I got yesterday:

From: Schoewe, Tawnya ([email protected])

Sent: Wed 9/04/13 3:33 PM

To: [email protected]

Hi Chris

I am in the process of writing a press release this week. It should go out for sure by next week regarding the status. It has taken some time for decisions and conversations at the park level but we are ready to talk about it soon.

After you see the press release, if you have questions feel free to call or email me. tawnya