Change???? maybe a little.

[SneakAttack]

I see some common sense about water sets, private land and 110/120 conibears finally came into play. Also the baited cubby with a 50 sq. inch opening is not bad. Very doable deal for the bucket setters. Simply cut a 7x7" opening in a bucket lid and two 7" slots to recess the trap. Place the trap in the bucket and install the lid over the trap. Easy peasy lemon squeezey.

I am sure some deabte will occur aas a seven inch hole and seven inches back will increase misses on racoons

I also notice it is a 100% give from the trappers and zero from dog owners. Where are the bills and proposals for keeping dogs under control? I think if the trappers have to give a little so should dog owners, solidify the safety of these dogs? Correct?

I have to use the 50sq. inch opening bucket set with a 160 in the permit area i trap coons, Have taken many big boars with this set by using bait that can be secured to the back to keep them working. Not the greatest set but it works and is the only way to trap coons in this area on a 3 day check

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Could we have grouse season end November 30 and trapping start December 1 with a special conibear season during the days of deer season?

This would have been a simple solution in the grouse zone, but as I said, the compromise will be on the trapping end, not on the other end.

All I can say is I'm sure glad I didn't order those new 220 Belisles I had on my wish list....

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

also notice it is a 100% give from the trappers and zero from dog owners. Where are the bills and proposals for keeping dogs under control? I think if the trappers have to give a little so should dog owners, solidify the safety of these dogs? Correct?

And how does a gundog owner kepp his dog under control while quartering looking for birds? Trust me mine are under control but there still "hunting" with there nose thats alot more sensitive than yours and mine. Flushers labs, goldens, and spanials typically hunt close, but what about the setter people, alot of times these dogs range quiet a bit more often times out of sight, with a beeper collar on, exspecialy if there is folage on the brush, I certainly wouldn't say because there out of sight there out of control, it's just the way they hunt..

[Saw557]

Hmm foliage on birch trees in December. I've said it many many times here I run two pointing dogs the possession limit is 10 grouse season opens mid September close grouse season Dec 15 you've had 90 days to harvest your 10 birds. How many people are really hunting grouse in Dec. not many so now you are in the minority just like trappers make a compromise like we have. Now give me some time to harvest my fisher and bobcat. Fair is fair as a dog hunter and a trapper I don't think this asking too much. Problem solved

[Random guy]

Quote:

I certainly wouldn't say because there out of sight there out of control, it's just the way they hunt..

Well a 220 is just the way I trap then, I can’t help it.

Let’s stop the talk and call it what it is, dog owners want a free pass to fully unrestricted rights to ALL lands, I am so tired of fricken dogs.

I don't think it’s very fair we as trappers have to give, give and give some more and dog owners have ZERO change or impact to their way of life. I have been bitten by three dogs (these incidents are actually documented unlike what is it now? Couple dozen mystery dogs the 220 got last year?)Maybe I'm scared for my safety, I do not want to have dogs by me when I am on public land, I could be bit again. I think I should push for mandatory leash laws in concern for public safety. Far more people are killed by dogs every year then traps kill dogs, "This is a problem!"

Bottom line I am saying is enough from the dog crowd; ya got what ya wanted so enough is enough. Or is there really more on the anti trapping agenda?

[Random guy]

Ya know the more I think about it I should push for leash laws. I bet if I round up everybody that has been bit, threatened or even think they might have been bit or threatened I would have a good case to put these uncontrolled killers on a leash. It only took a few dogs to get the 220 laws done I bet I could gather a couple dozen people with bite wounds to get behind the leash law. I even bet I could get some of them to cry on TV!

Quote:

Dog bites on the rise

by Lorna Benson, Minnesota Public Radio

July 19, 2007

Public health officials say the number of hospital-treated dog bites is growing. From 1998 to 2005, the rate of bites requiring an emergency room visit or hospitalization rose 40 percent in the state.

St. Paul, Minn. — The Minnesota Health Department is out with its first report on hospital-treated dog bites in the state. From 1998 to 2005, the rate of bites requiring an emergency room visit or hospitalization rose 40 percent.

The Health Department says the largest growth was in the number of dog bites treated in emergency departments, and children between the ages of 1 and 4 had the highest rate of dog bites requiring hospital treatment.

Minnesota Department of Health investigator Heather Day says officials aren't exactly sure why the rate has increased. But they have some theories.

"Part of it may be that there are more dogs, and therefore, more dog and human contact. Some of the increase could possibly be through more hospitals reporting this information to the hospital association. But it looks like the increase is certainly a real one," Day says.

Quote:

The dog bite epidemic: a primer

The number of dogs

There currently are 74.8 million dogs in the USA. (American Pet Products Manufacturers Association (APPMA) 2007-2008 National Pet Owners Survey.)

The number of victims

The most recent USA survey of dog bites, conducted by CDC researchers and based on data collected during 2001-2003, concluded that dogs bite 4.5 million Americans per year (1.5% of the entire population). Sacks JJ, Kresnow M. Dog bites: still a problem? Injury Prevention 2008 Oct;14(5):296-301.

Almost 800,000 bites per year -- one out of every 6 -- are serious enough to require medical attention. (Weiss HB, Friedman D, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments. JAMA 1998;279:51-53.)

Dog bites send nearly 368,000 victims to hospital emergency departments per year (1,008 per day). Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:605-610. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report is published by the CDC.

The number of Americans who had to be hospitalized as a result of dog bites went up 86% in the past 16 years, from 5,100 hospitalizations in 1993, to 9,500 in 2008. The average cost of treatment was $18,200 per patient. The patients generally were kids under 5 years old and seniors over 65. (US Dept. of Health and Human Services.)

16,476 dog bites to persons aged 16 years or greater were work related in 2001. (Ibid., Nonfatal Dog Bite–Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments — United States, 2001, MMWR 2003;52:608.

Every year 2,851 letter carriers are bitten. (US Postal Service.)

Getting bitten by a dog is the fifth most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms caused by activities common among children. (See Weiss HB, Friedman DI, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments, JAMA 1998;279:53; also see US Consumer Product Safety Commission, Injuries associated with selected sports and recreational equipment treated in hospital emergency departments, calendar year 1994. Consumer Product Safety Review, Summer 1996;1:5.) Note that this comparison is limited to activities that children more or less voluntarily engage in, such as playing sports, playing with animals, etc. Dog bite injuries are not specifically set forth in Federal Interagency Forum on Child and Family Statistics, Child Injury and Mortality, pp. 36, 37, 136 and 137, which states that the leading causes of emergency room visits overall are falls, being struck by or against an object, natural or environmental causes, poisening, being cut or pierced, and motor vehicle accident.

An American has a one in 50 chance of being bitten by a dog each year. (CDC.)

[Todd Caswell]

You know I read and reread both of you last 2 post, and I can't one intellgent, or realistic comment in either one of them. I asked you a simple question " How do you control a hunting dog? " So you want a leash law in the woods? I'm going to try and make this as ,simple as possible almost as if I was explaining it to a very young child. The reason for having a canine partner in the wood or marsh is to first scent, flush or point then retrieve downed game. Now how efficient is that dog going to be on a leash? I don't think I need to tell you this but maybe I do NOT VERY. It's kinda like me telling to you I'll let you put your traps out but you can't set them.

Iv'e backed you guys in almost every disscussion Iv'e had with other dog people, agreeing that there needs to a change of some sort but don't take the trap away. Fortunatly the vast majority of the trapping community that I have spoke with regarding this issue, is open to a change and understands the other side as well.

[Random guy]

So what you are saying is it is not ok to change YOUR way of life or restrict your dog to the point of inefficiency but it is ok to force the trapper into yet another change?

Hypocrisy hy•poc•ri• the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings • It would be sheer hypocrisy for them to turn around and do what they criticize in others.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Now how efficient is that dog going to be on a leash?

About as effective as putting a conibear 4 feet off the ground, I'm thinking..

Same argument, different words..

[Todd Caswell]

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

[Random guy]

Quote:

see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

Quote:

Getting bitten by a dog is the fifth most frequent cause of visits to emergency rooms caused by activities common among children. (See Weiss HB, Friedman DI, Coben JH. Incidence of dog bite injuries treated in emergency departments, JAMA 1998;279:53; also see US Consumer Product Safety Commission

Ya makes sense, most children are just jerks.

Really, oh and the second time I was bitten It was the neighbors dog charged me walking back from my deer stand on my property. Should have shot it instead I gave it the benefit of the doubt and figured it would recognize me as the guy that let him have full range of my yard.

I don't make that mistake anymore.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

I think you're missing the point.

All it takes is for someone to go on a crusade like what just happened with the traps. All they have to do is get some graphic photos and take it to the media and tweet it over the internet, and you will find yourself in a defensive position. After all your dogs are used for hunting, so they must be killer dogs, right? And we let killer dogs run around loose on public land?

Just saying...

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

So what you are saying is it is not ok to change YOUR way of life or restrict your dog to the point of inefficiency but it is ok to force the trapper into yet another change?

The part that you fail to realise or admitt is that a guy and his dog walking down a trail isn't putting any one or thing in harms way, now you on the other hand, by lazily putting a baited 220 10 yards of that very same trail are, in fact putting dogs in harms way, and you can't say your not. I watched a guy this past fall setting fox/ coyote scent post sets along the paved Paul Bunyan hiking/bike trail, within eyesight of the parking area, you can't tell me that guy wasn't asking for trouble, those are the type of people that got you in this position...

[Random guy]

A while back a West Virginia news broadcast aired a segment about a dog caught in a BEAR TRAP! I seen the headline and though holy hell a bear trap!? A huge bear trap and a cute little dog! Ya it was a #2 coil set for something or West Virginia had really small bear.

Also the dog was a long ways from home when it got in the "bear trap".

All about the media and Todd it sure stinks to have to defend your way of life against ridiculous and irrational claims doesn’t it?

Now make your hunting dog hobby your living and see how it feels knowing some sob story on the news is about to take away your income.

[Random guy]

Todd I will agree that right away laws and ethics do need to be addressed. Nobody should be trapping by a paved trail and bird hunters should not have shot the front of my house either.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

The part that you fail to realise or admitt is that a guy and his dog walking down a trail isn't putting any one or thing in harms way, now you on the other hand, by lazily putting a baited 220 10 yards of that very same trail are, in fact putting dogs in harms way, and you can't say your not. I watched a guy this past fall setting fox/ coyote scent post sets along the paved Paul Bunyan hiking/bike trail, within eyesight of the parking area, you can't tell me that guy wasn't asking for trouble, those are the type of people that got you in this position...

The part you don't seem to realize is that the very same thing could easily happen to you and your dogs, through no fault of your own.

It's a slippery downward slope, and we are all losing.

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

I think you're missing the point.

All it takes is for someone to go on a crusade like what just happened with the traps. All they have to do is get some graphic photos and take it to the media and tweet it over the internet, and you will find yourself in a defensive position. After all your dogs are used for hunting, so they must be killer dogs, right? And we let killer dogs run around loose on public land?

Just saying...

Oh I got the point, but it's not a realistic point that makes any sence, if Johnny can back up it up with stats, on how many people have been bit in the woods, on public land by bird dogs I'm willing to listen, but we all know he can't.

[Grayfox]

Guys,

There's been some good discussions for the most part on here over a pretty sensitive subject but I'd like to ask everyone to please click on the FORUM POLICY on the top of your screen before posting and take a second to read it.

Here's a few lines I'd like everyone to remember from it.

IMPORTANT-YOU MUST READ AND AGREE

before registering below, posting or using the forums.

This is a private community and we expect fun, friendly and positive posting patterns in this community. We do not want a complaint or argumentative oriented culture -

Please "Keep It Fun"

All complaints, argumentative/sarcastic posts, posts suggesting someone should not share information, name calling or labeling folks and aggressive posts are unwelcome here. If your post contributes to an argument or defensive behavior it will likely be considered aggressive. Please treat everyone here as if they are your friend.

Let's get back to posting some positive things on here as the trapping and furbearer seasons are winding down.

Thanks

Rob

[swamptiger]

Quote:

Oh I got the point, but it's not a realistic point that makes any sence, if Johnny can back up it up with stats, on how many people have been bit in the woods, on public land by bird dogs I'm willing to listen, but we all know he can't.

It will make a lot more sense if it happens to you. Statistics can be created in a heartbeat..

But I agree this whole discussion is going nowhere..

[Random guy]

Yes Rob. My bad...I need to go prep beaver traps, time out for Jonny in the garage.

[HunterLee]

I see no reason to limit them at all, there are fewer trappers these days than even 5-10 years ago. There is no way that i will go for any changes. Dog hunters and trappers have shared the woods for years, and have made it this far.

People need to be aware of trappers and vise versa. It is not like there are millions of traps per acre out there and if the hunter is worried about traps close to the trail maybe they shouldn't be lazy and get off the trails themselves???

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

Also the dog was a long ways from home when it got in the "bear trap".

I have no problem with the dog that gets caught, where he shouldn't be, although it's not the dogs fault it's the owners, unfortunatly that dog gets lumped in with the other ones.

Quote:

Todd I will agree that right away laws and ethics do need to be addressed. Nobody should be trapping by a paved trail and bird hunters should not have shot the front of my house either.

I agree as well if every one was as perfect and ethical as you and I our public lands would be a perfect place But we both know that ain't gonna happen either..

Now everybody be nice...

[walleye101]

Well this thread appears to be headed for lock down, but will repeat my suggestions from the hunting forum to try to get this back to debating some reasonable ideas.

First thing we need to agree on is that there is a problem. Good hunting dogs getting killed in traps doing what they are bred and trained to do is a problem. So is there a reasonable solution? A compromise where neither side looses but both give in a little? I would like to offer an idea as both a trapper and a dog runner.

Here are some facts.

The 220 trap is not the problem. It is the use of 220's in baited cubby sets, in places where they are likely to be encountered by dogs that is the problem. So lets not be talking about banning 220's on the ground or anyplace else. 220's are extremely effective on coon and SAFE when used as trail sets. They are also very effective and SAFE when used as partially submerged water sets. Lets focus on the problem set, the baited cubby, so if anything needs to be regulated it is the problem set, not the trap.

Baited 220 cubbies are primarily used for coon, fisher and bobcat. Smaller ones using 110's or 120's are often used for marten, or mink but those are safe so not a problem. Baited 220's are not effective as canine sets so that is not an issue.

Although coon, fisher and bobcat can all climb, elevated cubby sets are not nearly as effective, so that is not a reasonable solution for the trappers.

Coon trapping season is very long and spans most the hunting seasons, so more opportunity for conflict. Cat season is shorter but still plenty of overlap. Fisher season is currently a short 9 day season.

There are numerous alternatives to using baited cubbies for these animals but the set is often preferred for various reasons. One is that this set is very weather proof and can remain a workable set for long periods of time. But likely the main advantage is that lethal sets only have to be check every third day. For a long line coon trapper(running more traps) or part timer (checking before work), that can be more efficient. For cat trapping that is a huge advantage since cats range widely and may only come through an area once a week. Three day checks save lots of wasted trips. Fisher is a whole different story but the short 9 day season offers a fairly simple solution.

Minnesota trapping regulations already use northern forest zone and southern agriculture zone designations. Generally speaking most of the cat/fisher trapping occurs in the northern zone, and most of the coon trapping occurs in the southern zone. Yes, there are exceptions but that is primarily the case.

The southern zone is also primarily private land, with public hunting areas (WMA's) at a premium. Those are obviously the places most likely to be heavily hunted so lets keep baited cubbies out of those obvious problem areas.

Use baited cubbies on private land with landowner permission. I know from experience it is not hard to get permission to trap coon on private ag land. If hunters also get permission it is totally reasonable to ask if anyone is trapping there.

The other main source of public land in the southern zone is road right of way. Keep baited cubbies out of those as well. There are plenty of effective coon sets to use in those areas like the 220 trail set, dog proofs, leg holds in water crossing etc. Using a baited cubby next to a public road is asking for trouble.

The northern forest zone has an abundance of public land so plenty of opportunity for hunting dogs and trapper conflict. Coon are certainly present in the northern zone but not nearly as abundant as in the south. There are plenty of alternatives for catching coon on public land in the forest zone, so it would not be a huge sacrifice to give up the baited cubby in the early fall. Use them on private land with permission but keep them off public land during the main Oct-Nov hunting seasons.

Fisher/cat seasons have generally opened concurrently the weekend after Thanksgiving. Allow the baited cubbie on the ground during the 9 day fisher/cat season, and publicize it well. This is a dangerous week for dogs and advise folks to hunt only at their own risk. This is no different than taking deer season off when no one would think of running their dog.

When fisher season closes get the baited cubbies off public land. Continue to run them on private land with permission, but it is really not fair to tie up public land for a month and a half for trapper use only. For late season cat trapping lets give trappers a three day check on leg holds like most of the western cat states. A dog stumbles into a leghold set and it is just unpleasant experience not a lethal encounter.

How about that plan for a reasonable compromise?

[Saw557]

You know I could be wrong but I can't seen to find anything that has to do with gun dogs in the woods, trappers being bit, other hunters being bit, if I missed it please feel free to point it out to me. You say youv'e been bit a couple times, Iv'e been around them all my life, trained, or helped train a bunch of them and not once have I been bit, see dogs have a lot better sence of character than people do, they sence things that we don't. I'm not a very good judge of character, it usually takes me a while to figure someone out. But dogs they can sence it right now. Just sayin..

I've been around and trained dogs for a long time also I have also set many many many 220's and have never caught a dog.....just saying. As a bird dog hunter I am willing to compromise with a shortened season ( I've already got my legal possession limit) so why aren't other bird hunters willing to compromise. It's because they don't want to and deep down although they hate to admit they want to see the out right banning of trapping or they would be more open to change. Just admit it

[Trashguy]

Saw557, not don't get all mad at me again, but why do you keep bringing up the 10 possession thing with grouse? That is only possession not a limit for the year/season. I catch 6 Northerns, or 12 Walleye and I am done fishing for them for the year? Just curious. Be nice with your reply please. And for the record, I don't have a problem with shorting the grouse season, but that is just me.

[Saw557]

Saw557, not don't get all mad at me again, but why do you keep bringing up the 10 possession thing with grouse? That is only possession not a limit for the year/season. I catch 6 Northerns, or 12 Walleye and I am done fishing for them for the year? Just curious. Be nice with your reply please. And for the record, I don't have a problem with shorting the grouse season, but that is just me.

No point getting mad at anyone I understand possession limit I also know how it works in the real world I know many bird hunters that shoot many times their possession limit in September and October and still have them in the freezer come December and fish for that matter. I also firmly believe no matter what the limit is the birds that survive until December deserve a break. Or maybe we should just kill them all and then there would be no reason for a dog to be in the woods .... Problem solved

[swampman]

From someones perspective in the pheasnt range I am going to adress something that really has'nt been mentioned, baited cubbys or buckets really are not very effective in the fall for coon and most guys I know, myself included use them in the late winter early spring coon season when there is no bird dog hunting going on, why restrict them at that time? I run into nobody else that time of year, as far as row if you are the legal distance from someones house I dont see a problem, probably not a good idea to be walking your dog unleashed along a road anyway.

[9339za]

The DNR isn't doing us any favors with their bill. More dogs are going to die and putting trappers right in the crosshairs next session. I can't understand why the DNR is going out of their way to break the bond between hunters and trappers. This is going to really hurt trappers.

We need to contact the DNR and tell them we want a REAL solution.

[9339za]

Actually trail sets are killing dogs too. WCCO had a segment on a rabbit hunter who nearly lost his dog in a trail set. Ever dog I've ever seen runs with it's nose down a lot of the time.

[Saw557]

Actually trail sets are killing dogs too. WCCO had a segment on a rabbit hunter who nearly lost his dog in a trail set. Ever dog I've ever seen runs with it's nose down a lot of the time.

Of. course WCCO ran the story it will be in the Star this weekend and back on WCCO next week it's been said many times the metro are wants a solution for rural situation. They want to reserve the entire northland for their playground. I live and work here and at some point there has to a line in the sand you can only back up so far. I find it hard to believe thah some people think the DNR plan doesn't go far enough if they really believe that then you know what their solution is .....ban all trapping. I think the DNR plan has gone far enough although it doesn't leave a bobcat trapper many options. There is a reason they require elevated sets in the lynx zone they don't climb and neither does a bobcat. If bird hunters really wanted to work towards a solution they would be more open to closing grouse season mid December as I've mentioned before but comprise isn't on their agenda