More trapping of dogs...

[monstermoose78]

Not that long ago a guy laid down in the middle of the highway he was killed! Was it his right to lay down in the highway? yes it was. Bad choice yeah!We all make choice and have to live by what we do. If you take your dog into the woods during trapping season its your choice but know that traps are set and your dog may or may not be trapped. I hunt with a dog but come trapping season I don't because I know what waits in the woods.

[Random guy]

I know what waits in the woods.

The Boogie Man?!

I know everbody is ticked but I had to, I thought it was funny.

[monstermoose78]

that is why my dog does not get to hunt during trapping season!

[TimR]

Jonny P -

I can understand that, I see where you are coming from. It doesn't make it any better, but in all areas of life people are becoming fed up with ever increasing regulation and scrutiny.

It is important to note that the trappers closest neighbor (hunters), are saying to you "hey, we have a problem we need to deal with together". Some knuckleheads are telling the hunters to go pound sand.

If a decent discussion can't even be had with hunters, how is it going to go with the rest of the public that shares that resource?

You have very valid points about the benefits trapping brings to the wider public, and trapper's rights as a portion of the public. Be wary of letting the "rage" be heard in the the voice of trappers - it's not how opinions are swayed.

Good luck,

Tim

Problem is not that trappers are facing a new issue but we are facing yet another issue. Years of being pushed into a corner have taken individuals that normally in tune to nature and the serenity it offers and flipping them. I would go as far as saying a trapper is the last one that wants to be noticed, heard or seen, but we have been bully slapped into a furious rage from years of being told we are lesser people our ways wrong and we must always succumb to the wishes of other groups. What you are seeing from the trapping community is a group of people that have just been pushed to the limit. Angst is running rampant right now among the guys in hip boots and to be honest I fully understand that feeling. I am a licensed bait dealer, bear guide and fishing guide that deals with ever changing regulations and absurd rulings on a regular basis. Granted change is a pain but we deal with it and go on. Now as far as the trapping regulations go it has finally reached the point of too much. I think this one is going to backfire big time as the trapping community may have finally had enough.

[Random guy]

Fully understood Tim and I guess a big part of this that is missing from this particular debate is the fact several meetings/discussions have been held, phone conferences and I have spent two days on the phone with elected officials discussing this and to be honest it’s has been one sided since the start. Those of you that have kids have had the every answer is no conversation. That’s what these meetings/ calls have been. Every suggestion or idea is greeted with a very prompt “NO”. I couldn’t even get the suggestion out of my mouth about permits before a “NO” rang out. I couldn't even finish the sentance and I talk very fast. It has already been decided to push for no 220s and that’s the only option allowed from the other side of the fence. To many taxpayers and votes outside the rural districts to sway that.

[Random guy]

Ok I'm done for the day, time to fill out minnow permits. Have fun and I wil catch up with the dog debates in the morning.

[memyself@I]

Well I do like your picture, you're stylin, man. That is one deep drainage ditch. The humor was good, monstermoose78 post "then let your dog die" was......well it speaks for itself.

But its a waste of time to post as reason and logic seems to have very little place on internet forums, I forgot that one point.

I did live and work in your country for 18 years, Jonny, and I do know your dad and Jimmy although not very well. And I do know about their role in the 80s situation.

I expect we'll be meeting soon down some road, somewhere, over this issue, and look forward to it.

[bigg edd]

It's really sad to see people arguing on a "outdoor" site like this. It makes me wonder if my kids or grand kids will ever get to enjoy the outdoors without having to have a permit and take a class to step into the woods. The ball is already rolling. I'm sure the antis love reading stuff like this.....

[monstermoose78]

well memyself@I your name says it all! its all about you and not the good of the people!

[BrettH]

Jonny, have been a real fan of yours over the years. Love reading your fishing posts. I have said nurmerous times to friends of mine that you provide the best info for comming up to Upper Red and the LOW Rainy River areas and how your info at least for me has created a loyal customer to the area. However, Jonny with regard to this issue I can't disagree with you more.

I don't live in the cities I live in the boonies near Aitkin. I am afield constantly regardless of season, I am by no means an anti, and by most, would be considerd a avid outdoorsman. I am perfectly content to deal with the NATURAL hazards that I or my dog may encounter while in the wild. Yes, I intended to use the caps lock on natural. Traps placed on the ground and baited are not natural they are placed by humans then left to catch anything that sticks it's head in. Trappers like yourself that place the blame on the dog owners for getting killed in one of these is really frustrating because it polarizes us. The more I read posts like that the more I get ticked off and the more I want them off the ground no matter what.

I have been very close and highly involved in pushing the change to the 220 regulation, in fact if you read the Star Tribune Political section of todays paper you will find that a state rep and a senator have authored a bill to get the 220's off the ground. You mention a few uplanders are teaming with Anti groups to get this pushed through. Yes a lot of press has been made of this that has brought in all kinds of views. But, the core group involved with wanting change are the farthest from anti trapping that you as a trapper could hope to have. We would like to have well spoken trappers involved and I am sure there will be but, if you think that the passion you feel for trapping is intense I can assure you that the love for our dogs is just as impassioned. I hope the trapping industry sees the merrit in working towards a solution that will protect our dogs rather than having one shoved down their throat.

[jparrucci]

We as hunters want you to trap. We want you to be successful. But we would like our dogs to come home in one piece. I think enough hunters have already said they don't take their dogs on public land during trapping seasons. It sounds like the hunters have already made huge concessions. I looked at the trapping seasons, some species are long, some are very short. I am not sure which seasons that 220s are used for, or if it all of them. Looks like you can trap from October to march. Bird hunting ends in December.

[RBuker]

Brett,

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't say you are for trappers while trying to take away their privledges.

It really saddens me to see so-called sportsman working to limit another sporting groups time or method afield. Nothing could be worse for any of us.

I can't believe how emotions are leading the charge in getting these changes pushed through. If we look at the staggering number of dogs in this state and come to realize that what, SIX have died in traps that the odds of your dog getting in a trap are far smaller than getting run over, shot by an irate neighbor or poisoned because it craps in someone elses yard.

We should all be adult enough to take the emotionsal stuff out of thie debate. I've got five dogs. I "LOVE" them like children. But, I realize there are hazards everywhere I look for those dogs. Some are natural and most are manmade.

Brett, your statement about getting those traps off the gound "No matter what" says a lot about your emotional state. It's obvious that in this caee you are out to get the trappers.

It saddens me when I see sportsmen not supporting each other.

I'll be calling all my contacts at the capital asking they change NO rules on trapping regarding this issue.

[monstermoose78]

+1

[swampman]

Wow, just made my way over to this thread this is so emotionally charged that alot of common sense has flown out the window. We have had kind of a perfect storm for this to happen this year fur prices being up on some animals(more people trapping) a unseasonably warm fall and winter(more guys hunting longer) and so here we are throwing rocks at each other it will be the downfall of all of us eventually just look at other parts of the world ,has happened already.,

I personally don't use many 220's not part of what I do but would hate to see them taken away from the guys that need them for there target species. All the talk of elavating sets may be fine and dandy for some things but is'nt being realistic for others.

Think about it this way, your told you can hunt ducks but you can't use decoys, or you can grouse hunt but you can only use a 30 inch barrel with a full choke, sure you will still get some birds but it is'nt real practical is it? I am always amazed every fall by the amount of hunters that have no idea what we do, I have been asked by alot of duck hunters what I am doing while out trapping muskrats, I find that just amazing. I am not saying there can't be some kind of compromise but if we are all going to get along we are all probably going to have to all eat a little [PoorWordUsage] whether we like it or not.

[Todd Caswell]

Quote:

Think about it this way, your told you can hunt ducks but you can't use decoys, or you can grouse hunt but you can only use a 30 inch barrel with a full choke, sure you will still get some birds but it is'nt real practical is it?[color:#CC0000]

These comparisons have nothing, absolutly, nothing to do with the subject in front of us, they are meaningless thought up restrictions that are comparing apples and oranges. a duck hunter using decoys or a grouse hunter using a 20 inch barrel IMP choke isn't endangering anyone or anything. ( Get the point?)

[Random guy]

I posted this in the trapping forum and figure might as well post it here also.

Quote:

Swamptiger you have some great ideas and I commend you for them.

As for grouse closure and season adjusts I mentioned that but the pheasant hunters and rabbit hunters shot that down as quickly as a one winged rooster.

I will be the first to say we the trappers may have lost this battle before it even started. It is the way has always been and will always be until the trapper is gone from America. I just wish I wouldn't have spent the money replacing all the triggers on my 220s. Now I have a pile of useless iron with new triggers, guess I didn’t see this coming. Maybe I should call WCCO and start sobbing for the camera. I might get as good of turn out as the dog side of this did and somebody will donate me the cost of the triggers. Maybe somebody will give me a 10k dog, heck I would be happy with a $50 dog as I miss my old bird dog. She got ran over on a job site a couple years ago. I plan on petitioning a ban on all wheeled construction equipment later this month.

To get back on track

Trouble I run into is my water sets legally become "ground sets" once the ice forms. “Elevated” puts them up where only climbing critters can get to them so water based furbearers that still rove around after freeze up and do not climb are now a snare or no-freeze pan set such as a fox set. Trapping the bog is a major difference from trapping river bottoms and the hilly country of southern MN. Heck I have huge multi mile areas I don’t even have a tree big enough to elevate the trap in, I struggle to find brush heavy enough to anchor snares and often have pack in steel stakes. Loss/miss rates are going to go way up. Sadly the only way to make up the numbers is more pan traps and snares.

The title of topic is thoughts on the 220. My thought is the 220 is the most valuable tool in my arsenal. Loss of the 220 ground set will severely impact my success and income. To resolve or counter the effects of the 220 ban I plan on placing either two larger pan traps say #2s and #3s in its place to keep the odds in favor. Another approach will be a four snare set in every place I can no longer ground set a 220. Some places the two big hard hitting pan traps will work and other the multiple snare sets will make up the difference. It will be hard to make up for the efficiency of the 220 and will require multiple sets to equal out. Either way I have a second window open right now ordering 200 premade snares in three grades/sizes to replace the 220s. The prices are not bad right now and figured snatch them up now before that changes. 600 snares should cover the first year snares in place of the 220 ground set requirements I need to meet. Sadly snares are a one catch deal, especially using the good locking slides. I guess one good thing about going to snares is I will be able to extend my lines covering more territory as I can pack a couple hundred snares where I could fit 10 or 12 220 conibears, plus a much lighter load.

Guess that’s the silver lining of it.

Of course next year it will be snares. Soon all we will be able to trap is squirrels in the tops of trees and moles underground. Wonder how police forces feel about trading their muskrat fur lined hats for squirrel hats?

[Random guy]

Todd what Swampman was saying is you would not like it if the things purchased and use to be succefull where taken away.

Just as I said dogs should be on leash. I said it to make a point of what it would be like. Many do not understand what taking away the 220 does to the sport and we as trappers are trying to expalin the best we can by comparision what it would be like to lose part of your hunting program.

[swampman]

Jonny p that is exactlly what I was trying to say but as I said earlier this is a emotionally charged issue and some people are dead set on getting rid of these and nothing is going to change that. I wish nobodys dog would ever be killed again but it is going to happen regardless of what comes of this issue. Can we make it safer and still all get along maybe. The odds of somebodys dog being killed in a trap imo has been blown out of proportion. There is some danger in everything we do, we weigh the risks and make a decision. There are guys killed in hunting accidents every year it is a very small percetage but it makes the news. Do we want to ban guns because somebody might get shot? alot of people would like that. I am only saying this so we can look at the bigger picture here. Some will understand others never will.

[Saw557]

Bottom line is the trapper is screwed always has been always will be. The anti's, bunny huggers, MEDIA are on a witch hunt and aren't going to quit until they get their way. There are many many many times the number of dogs killed by cars a year and people don't think twice about that. It's one big crock of SH*T

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Wow! what a $h!^ show! I do appreciate these threads cause they have really opened my eyes. I was for the most part oblivious to trapping. Don't know squat about it, don't really care that much about it. But after some research and seeing pics, well, I guess the "bunny hugger" in me is coming out when I say I LOATH trapping now! HOWEVER, I do see the need and I "get it"! Would much rather folks just shoot the critters, and do away with the $ angle.

Anyway, after seeing pics of critters trapped in a leg hold traps waiting for death to come, I actually would MUCH rather see 220's doing the deed. I'm all about a clean, humane kill on everything. I've wounded a few deer and feel horrible when it happens. I, in no way could handle coming up on a trap with an animal waiting to die. (What do you do to them anyway? Shoot them or beat them dead? serious question here...)

I like bird hunting with dogs, (I lost my lab this summer so I basically took the year off and between steelhead and bow hunting, my falls are full enough anyway), however, when I get a new dog, I don't know if I'll even want to take it out bird hunting now. This is some scary business!

Please educate me! What do you use a 220 for? When are they the most prevalent in the woods? What types of habitat are they set in? If I understand this right they are used for critters that have a week or 2 long season during the fall (cats, coons, yotes?, beav's?).

I'll never like trapping, but I will respect the trapper and will not get behind banning them, (like I said the 220 seems to be the only humane trap in use). But an increased push on education and awareness for EVERYONE is something all trappers should do!

[Random guy]

Please educate me! What do you use a 220 for?

Northern Minnesota we use them for Muskrats, Otter, Coons, Skunk, Fisher, Martin and some use them for Bobcat and Fox.

Southern guys will have to chime in but but moslty the same species with a slighty different application

330 are used as beaver/ otter traps and need to be set submerged in the water. Thats makes sense as beaver live in the water and are often a to big for the 220.

Pan traps/leg holds can be used just about anything but are not as efficient and have higher miss/loss rate.

[Trapper J]

I dont know of any trapper that doesnt hunt or hasnt hunted over a gundog.I do both myself.Trappers DONT want to kill anyones dogs.There are a handfull of knuckle-heads that use no discretion when using 220's.Should the rest of us lose because of it? I have also been with knuckle-heads that call themselves bird hunters when I use to do a little guiding.Do I stereotype the hunting world because of this? Absolutely not!Dont restrict the trapper because of a handfull of unfortunate incidents.This was an unusual late fall and winter.More people and dog activity than usual because of no snow and mild temps.As far as elevating 220's off the ground,a guy might as well set em on the moon.

[JBar]

After seeing pics of critters trapped in a leg hold traps waiting for death to come

Some times the apearances of these pictures are not what they seem the foot hold trap actually causes very little damage if any at all. When a foot hold is staked or fastened properly foot damage is and often none. They are also widely used for a live market and relocation tool and more so with larger animals than cage traps.

[Random guy]

"Gummer" traps with rubber jaws. Often used for larger critters that need to relocated such as Mnbullrider stated. These traps are subtle, in fact I have stuck my paw in a set #2 just to see and demonstrate how gentle they are. It still surprises you but doesnt hurt, about like when a piece of brush slaps ya walking in the woods. I have had my hands in just about every trap made as I m a clutz. To be honest the one that never dies was when I was a kid and sat on a 220 and clamped my butt. I reached back and pulled it off but the story has never died.

[swampman]

LOL the butt catch is a first for me never heard that one. I won't say what happened in my waders one time.

[jparrucci]

Fisher Martin and Bobcat have their own shorter seasons correct?

[Random guy]

Instead of helping me my assocaite was digging for the camera.

[Random guy]

Fisher Martin and Bobcat have their own shorter seasons correct?

Yes Nov 26th to Dec 4 fpr fisher and Bobcat is Noc 26- Jan 8th

[JBar]

Yes Fisher, Marten ran from Nov 26 to December 4th and Bobcat from Nov 26 to Jan 8th. This can also be a problem in it's self as Fisher and Marten love cat sets.

[JBar]

sorry for stepping on your toes Jonny