More trapping of dogs...

[Trashguy]

This is one of the comments from today's Tribune article on our subject. Thought it was worth posting and I agree:

"The Minnesota Trappers Association, if they're smart, will support this legislation as a reasonable compromise. Pandering to the "don't give an inch" crowd in the trapping community could very well harm the sport they think they're trying to protect. Every dead dog is a PR nightmare for a sport that doesn't enjoy much popular support to begin with."

Another question I thought I would ask, how many trappers are trapping for the love of the sport or for the $$? You can answer with % here and % there. Guess when I was trapping as a kid it was for the love/fun of it and another reason to be out in the woods, when I did it rats were .50 though & mink either side of a dollar an inch, maybe they still are. I know I had some nice bucks around 30" and that was $30! Pretty good money to be made for a kid before getting on the bus before school. Thought any answers would be interesting. Trapped plenty of badgers too (man are they viscous in a leg hold!), but the only money was from the farmer and can't remember what I got.

[RBuker]

Have any of the trappers here spoken with the Minnesota trappers association regarding any of the ideas or compromises suggested here? The bill currently proposed leaves both sides at an all or nothing state. I am sure we can get somebody like cornish or mcnamara behind it if both sides support it.

I haven't heard what Cornish thinks about this. Might be interesting to hear it. I was the person involved in getting the use of lights allowed for hunting predators at night. Tony Cornish was against it even though the Minnesota Deer hunters Association, The DNR Division of Enforcement, the DNR Division of Wildlife and many other organizations were on my side and didn't see a problem with it. Tony had his own agenda and was not very logical or fair in his dealings with me. He threw up a bunch of roadblocks to try to hinder the process. He is the reason we can't shoot 'coons at night (Might be breeding or hibernating..) and he's the reason we can't use rifles. He's not always our friend.

[swampman]

I think people have a tendency to fear things they they are'nt framiliar with as stated already most trappers own hunting dogs and don't have the same reaction to this as non trappers. I personally own around 600 traps of which 5 are 220's that have'nt been set in 3yrs. So me personally it would not be a big deal. Other guys it is a huge deal for there operation and I would hate to see them lose that. I think it just starts a bad trend. I am sure alot of you hunters belong to the NRA they tend not to budge for the same reason.

The bill as it is written makes no sense at all I am not against making some adjustments to the 220 issue if it make sense.

It comes across loud and clear that some here would rather see no trapping at all. I get that I personally don't care for spearfishing but I have friends that do and I would hate to see them lose a privalage just because I don't personally care for it.

I think there can be a reasonable solution to this will it be perfect probably not. Trashguy if my house was burning down after I went in and got my wife and kids out the dog would be on his own if it meant maybe leaving my wife without a husband and my kids with out there dad. Thats just me

[swampman]

Have any of the trappers here spoken with the Minnesota trappers association regarding any of the ideas or compromises suggested here? The bill currently proposed leaves both sides at an all or nothing state. I am sure we can get somebody like cornish or mcnamara behind it if both sides support it.

The trappers assoc is on top of this I am not a officer but do know that they are dealing with it

[NORTHCRAZE]

Brett how can you possibly say that you are not responsible for your actions?

Duck hunters must identify what type of ducks they are shooting at beforethey shoot!

Goose hunters must identify what type of geese they are shooting at before they shoot!

Pheasant hunters must identify a rooster or hen before they shoot!

Deer hunters must must identify between a buck and a doe (unless they have a permit)before they shoot!

And all of the above must be positively sure of the background where their shells or bullets will end up.

I guess I'm not sure why trappers aren't required some how to be sure of their target?

I read all the time in the "Outdoor News" of trappers that accidently

killed lynx,bobcat,protected gray wolves.protected eagles, blue jays, gray jays,etc.How many of these are not reported?

Not sure why some of these don't fall under the "Wanton Waste" law?

Also you know as well as I do that there are a lot more than the"six dogs" like you are talking about!

You talk about common sense, where is this dogs playing on the highway,car accidents, keeping my dog on a 4' lease and telling me that a dog has to work a certain close distance for grouse hunting coming from?

[NORTHCRAZE]

Sorry,

I meant to address my last post to RBuker not Brett

[swampman]

I guess all the coots I find floating dead during duck season died of natural causes

[Trashguy]

Hey Northcraze, Longville, where is that, oh wait, five miles from our place. Where abouts are you located there? If you don't want to say, that is fine, just making conversation. We are on Townline Lake, north of Longville as I am sure you know where that is. Water level just keeps dropping on our lake and with this winter....... I do most of my stuff in the woods though, north of Remer, pushing 40 years now.

[RBuker]

Brett how can you possibly say that you are not responsible for your actions?

Duck hunters must identify what type of ducks they are shooting at beforethey shoot!

Goose hunters must identify what type of geese they are shooting at before they shoot!

Pheasant hunters must identify a rooster or hen before they shoot!

Deer hunters must must identify between a buck and a doe (unless they have a permit)before they shoot!

And all of the above must be positively sure of the background where their shells or bullets will end up.

I guess I'm not sure why trappers aren't required some how to be sure of their target?

I read all the time in the "Outdoor News" of trappers that accidently

killed lynx,bobcat,protected gray wolves.protected eagles, blue jays, gray jays,etc.How many of these are not reported?

Not sure why some of these don't fall under the "Wanton Waste" law?

Also you know as well as I do that there are a lot more than the"six dogs" like you are talking about!

You talk about common sense, where is this dogs playing on the highway,car accidents, keeping my dog on a 4' lease and telling me that a dog has to work a certain close distance for grouse hunting coming from?

Northcraze, Please show me where I said I'm not responsible for my actions. I can't find that statement in my posts. Sorry.

You asked where it's coming from when I said I don't let my dogs play on the highway and that my dogs hunt close when I'm grouse hunting. Friend, that's simple responsibility for your dog. The 4' leash statement was not made by me and I'm pretty sure it was tongue in cheek.

The rest of your post is kind of jumbled and I don't even know how to respond to it.

Anyway, please quote me where I said I didn't have to take responsibility for my actions and I'll respond to it.

[NORTHCRAZE]

I guess all the coots I find floating dead during duck season died of natural causes

As I said in my post, duck hunters must be sure of their target!So If what your saying is true these are illegal hunters and need to be caught and penalized.And I feel that would also be wanton waste.

But with these traps being set out with bait you obviously can't control the type of animals you are killing.

So as this is illegal for the hunter that shot the coot why is it OK for the trapper.

[Trashguy]

+1

and the response is:

[NORTHCRAZE]

I thought my post was very clear as to what was said. Jumbled??

I also thought you were quite clear the stance your were taking even though you don't trap.

Let's get this thing straight. The safety of a dog is always up to its owner. Not the driver of the car and not the trapper.

[LOTWSvirgin]

I smell a troll

[RBuker]

I thought my post was very clear as to what was said. Jumbled??

I also thought you were quite clear the stance your were taking even though you don't trap.

Let's get this thing straight. The safety of a dog is always up to its owner. Not the driver of the car and not the trapper.

Well, you are wrong. Your post was jumbled and confusing.

Anyway, you neglected to show me where I said I don't have to take responsibility for myself. And, yes, you read it right. If you own a dog, you have to take responsibility for it. It can't read road signs and it doesn't know it can't lick up antifreeze off yoru garage floor. Simple enough?

[swampman]

My point being you came across as all duck hunters don't pull the trigger unless they know what they are shooting.

Look I really don't want to argue with you guys and if we met in the field hunting we would probably all get along just fine. We all have a passion for what we do and thats not a bad thing.

We can fight here all we won't and we are'nt going to acomplish anything anyway, I know I have got sucked in, the legal process will sort this out one way or another

[swamptiger]

Quote:

We can fight here all we won't and we are'nt going to acomplish anything anyway, I know I have got sucked in, the legal process will sort this out one way or another

+1.

This will all be sorted out down in St. Paul now. Too bad, but that's the way things work nowadays. It's all about ME...

[NORTHCRAZE]

Hey Trashguy,

My place is also about 5 miles out of town.

Yes I know where Townline is.I still fish it some but fished it allot more before it froze out.

Did you ever hear of a guy named Farley Dare.We got together from time to time to shoot the breeze.Like you he also lived on the lake. Super guy. He passed away some years back. The reason I bring this up is because I think he was originally from Prior Lake, basically your Jordan neighbor.

[squeeb27]

Last year pheasant hunting I had a dog get bit by a conna bear, I had never seen one before. We got the dog out in time and it was all good, would it maybe too much to ask to put a surveyor stake up with like pink or orange tape on it so a guy could see it and direct hos dog back to him? Would that change the outcome of successfully trapping an animal?

[Tinkhamtown]

Six dead dogs because of conibear traps is a very big problem to other dog owners. Not hunting or going on the public lands because you fear for your dog’s safety because of traps is serious.

Public land, State and National forests do not belong to just trappers so they can kill to make a living.

An online petition (see http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/mark-dayton-governor-minnesota/) to outlaw body-gripping traps on public land. Please contact your state representative and senator to outlaw body-grip-traps on public land.

[mallardnwalleye]

Come on guys -banning body gripping traps completely on public areas goes way too far. Underwater sets and x ft. off the ground should be the most you should demand. Maybe a simple change in the trapping season and bumping the public land opener out a little further is all that is needed. We didn't see that many dogs die in previous seasons, my guess is it's related to the the lack of snow and warmth.

[crappiegetter]

would it maybe too much to ask to put a surveyor stake up with like pink or orange tape on it so a guy could see it and direct hos dog back to him? Would that change the outcome of successfully trapping an animal?

I flag all my traps with a 4ft fiberglass electric fence stick and bright orange in areas where its possible dogs could be but all my conibears are under water so they shouldn't get caught anyway.

[Trashguy]

Very refreshing post crappiegetter. Thank you.

[MuleShack]

would it maybe too much to ask to put a surveyor stake up with like pink or orange tape on it so a guy could see it and direct hos dog back to him?

Heck, that is all I would like to see. I dont care if the traps are out on public land, just let me know where they are so I can keep my dogs away from the area.

Right now, I keep my dogs away from any water edge or creek in public area for fear of unmarked traps.

I think as a bare minimum all traps on public land should have a minimum standard marking. If you fear the traps are going to get stolen, that is a risk you take to trap public land.

Private land, different story, that would be up to the land owner if they get marked or not.

I don't see the need to make them go away or take them off the ground as long as there is notification and markings.

The other thing I find troubling is those that use pheasant remains to bait traps. Not sure if "rumors" are true, but that seems like it is asking for trouble. My dogs are trained to find that scent. Is there other baits out there?

[grousehunter]

Six dead dogs because of conibear traps is a very big problem to other dog owners. Not hunting or going on the public lands because you fear for your dog’s safety because of traps is serious.

Public land, State and National forests do not belong to just trappers so they can kill to make a living.

An online petition (see http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/mark-dayton-governor-minnesota/) to outlaw body-gripping traps on public land. Please contact your state representative and senator to outlaw body-grip-traps on public land.

I'm all for changing the rules around to help protect dogs, or even possibly limit land coniber sets to private land. That petition is basically one big step to end all trapping though. Wouldn't even consider putting my name on there or associating with the petition. The last lines in it state: "Trapping wild animals for fur should be a thing of the past - there is no good reason to allow the practice to continue today. We ask that you end the lethal trapping of wild carnivores." States nothing of public vs. private and basically says right in the petition all trapping should be outlawed except on city raccoons....

[kelly-p]

This to say the least an interesting topic. I used to trap for a living but quit doing that when the number of recreational trappers increased along with the price of gas and trapping was no longer as profitable. I used to bird hunt on public land but quit doing that when bird hunting on public land became circus of bird hunters all driving fast down a road to get to their favorite place before some other bird hunter got to their favorite place. Now I only bird hunt on my private land. When I bird hunt I never let my dog get out of my sight. 2 years age the timber wolves almost killed my dog when he was less then 50 feet away from me at the edge of a field while I was working on some farm equipment right there so my dog is no longer ever out of my sight. So I have no horse in this race but there are some things I feel that people should be thinking about.

This is from Delta Waterfowl’s website.

Quote:

Who are the ducks’ biggest predators?

Due to factors such as weather, disease and food abundance—predator communities and populations vary by year and by region. Over the long term, predators such as red fox, raccoon, and striped-skunk tend to top the list of predators that impact nesting ducks.

Quote:

In many areas of intensively farmed landscapes the habitat threshold may not be attainable due to financial and political realities. Areas with high wetland densities will commonly attract 60-80 pairs of ducks per square mile, however most of these breeding pairs will not produce a single brood. Delta’s student research program has discovered that predator management can return areas back to productive landscapes for ducks once again, increasing nest success by two fold, averaging an increase from 24 to 48% nest success. Delta and its partners are using predator management in a targeted manner to areas that have high breeding densities - but are below the habitat threshold and subsequently experience low nest success.

In the video showing how it is done it shows a body gripping trap being set in a box. The very thing bird hunters are trying to ban.

A lot of the posts say that a trap ban should only be on public land. Here where I live about 95% of the land is public. That would be a big ban. Also my properly managed land will usually have at least 5 times more birds then the unmanaged or poorly managed public land around it so many of the bird hunters like to hunt as close to my property line as they can and many of them sneak onto my land every chance they can. What is to keep their dogs out of traps on my land? Dogs can't read No Trespassing signs and I firmly believe that predator control is just as important as habitat when it comes to bird numbers so there are traps on my land.

A lot of the posters here only seem to see rural MN for what they want to do there. They forget that all across rural MN there are people living there, people are dying and babies are being born. People are doing their best to support their families and raise their children as best they can. Rural MN is not just for recreation, it is also where people live.

Living in a rural area I am not used to driving in heavy traffic so when I go to the metro area it is harder for me driving in all that traffic. Wouldn’t it look a little stupid of me to ask that the people living in the metro area to not drive on the days I plan on being there so it is easier for me to drive? My tax dollars help build those roads and streets so shouldn’t I be able to use them the way I want just like some people want to have rural public land only the way they want it?

An interesting thing about how this issue is viewed. About 1 year ago a Twin Cities TV station ran a segment about dogs getting into traps. After the segment had run one member of the news team turned to the other and said, “It looks like something has to be done about those traps”. The exact same news segment ran on a Fargo TV station the next night. After the segment had run one member of the news team turned to the other and said, “Further proof that people need to keep their dogs under control“.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

That petition is basically one big step to end all trapping though. Wouldn't even consider putting my name on there or associating with the petition. The last lines in it state: "Trapping wild animals for fur should be a thing of the past - there is no good reason to allow the practice to continue today. We ask that you end the lethal trapping of wild carnivores."

The petition was obviously started by antis. My guess is if they don't like trapping, they probably aren't much in favor of bird hunting either. Might as well sign your own death warrant..

[Sota2Florida]

Tinkhamtown, you are asking for the end to hunting and trapping as we know it. The outdoorsman and women out West can tell you what happens when you get people in other states and countries signing petitions for what is "best" for Minnesota, Colorado, Montana etc.

All this has been set up by 6 dead dogs. Horrible of course but come on, we now have these worthless "news" agencies propagating petitions to end a style of trapping that was encouraged when I was a kid. If you cannot see the agenda here I fear for my future as an outdoorsman. Hopefully both sides can be wise enough to educate their kids and the neighbor kids about safe and ethical hunting and trapping before its too late.

JohnnyP and all the other trappers, I wish you the best. I hope all the State, Federal and public land stays available to hunters and trappers. Was it not originally purchased for that use? The WMA's I used as a kid were vital for me to enjoy the outdoors with.

[walleye101]

Unfortunately this topic was shut down on the trapping forum. Too bad because honest rational discussion is what this topic needs, lets try to keep it going in that direction.

First thing we need to agree on is that there is a problem. Good hunting dogs getting killed in traps doing what they are bred and trained to do is a problem. So is there a reasonable solution? A compromise where neither side looses but both give in a little? I would like to offer an idea as both a trapper and a dog runner.

Here are some facts.

The 220 trap is not the problem. It is the use of 220's in baited cubby sets, in places where they are likely to be encountered by dogs that is the problem. So lets not be talking about banning 220's on the ground or anyplace else. 220's are extremely effective on coon and SAFE when used as trail sets. They are also very effective and SAFE when used as partially submerged water sets. Lets focus on the problem set, the baited cubby, so if anything needs to be regulated it is the problem set, not the trap.

Baited 220 cubbies are primarily used for coon, fisher and bobcat. Smaller ones using 110's or 120's are often used for marten, or mink but those are safe so not a problem. Baited 220's are not effective as canine sets so that is not an issue.

Although coon, fisher and bobcat can all climb, elevated cubby sets are not nearly as effective, so that is not a reasonable solution for the trappers.

Coon trapping season is very long and spans most the hunting seasons, so more opportunity for conflict. Cat season is shorter but still plenty of overlap. Fisher season is currently a short 9 day season.

There are numerous alternatives to using baited cubbies for these animals but the set is often preferred for various reasons. One is that this set is very weather proof and can remain a workable set for long periods of time. But likely the main advantage is that lethal sets only have to be check every third day. For a long line coon trapper(running more traps) or part timer (checking before work), that can be more efficient. For cat trapping that is a huge advantage since cats range widely and may only come through an area once a week. Three day checks save lots of wasted trips. Fisher is a whole different story but the short 9 day season offers a fairly simple solution.

Minnesota trapping regulations already use northern forest zone and southern agriculture zone designations. Generally speaking most of the cat/fisher trapping occurs in the northern zone, and most of the coon trapping occurs in the southern zone. Yes, there are exceptions but that is primarily the case.

The southern zone is also primarily private land, with public hunting areas (WMA's) at a premium. Those are obviously the places most likely to be heavily hunted so lets keep baited cubbies out of those obvious problem areas.

Use baited cubbies on private land with landowner permission. I know from experience it is not hard to get permission to trap coon on private ag land. If hunters also get permission it is totally reasonable to ask if anyone is trapping there.

The other main source of public land in the southern zone is road right of way. Keep baited cubbies out of those as well. There are plenty of effective coon sets to use in those areas like the 220 trail set, dog proofs, leg holds in water crossing etc. Using a baited cubby next to a public road is asking for trouble.

The northern forest zone has an abundance of public land so plenty of opportunity for hunting dogs and trapper conflict. Coon are certainly present in the northern zone but not nearly as abundant as in the south. There are plenty of alternatives for catching coon on public land in the forest zone, so it would not be a huge sacrifice to give up the baited cubby in the early fall. Use them on private land with permission but keep them off public land during the main Oct-Nov hunting seasons.

Fisher/cat seasons have generally opened concurrently the weekend after Thanksgiving. Allow the baited cubbie on the ground during the 9 day fisher/cat season, and publicize it well. This is a dangerous week for dogs and advise folks to hunt only at their own risk. This is no different than taking deer season off when no one would think of running their dog.

When fisher season closes get the baited cubbies off public land. Continue to run them on private land with permission, but it is really not fair to tie up public land for a month and a half for trapper use only. For late season cat trapping lets give trappers a three day check on leg holds like most of the western cat states. A dog stumbles into a leghold set and it is just unpleasant experience not a lethal encounter.

How about that plan for a reasonable compromise?

[LOTWSvirgin]

FYI I have set a bunch of bucket sets on public land today so be carefull

[walleye101]

FYI I have set a bunch of bucket sets on public land today so be carefull

"honest rational discussion is what this topic needs, lets try to keep it going in that direction."