More trapping of dogs...

[BLACKJACK]

Another article in the Strib today about dogs getting caught and killed in 220 conibear traps.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/136687643.html

[Saw557]

I read the article and I feel for the dog owner. I have two hunting dogs and I also trap. My feelings have always been if the grouse makes it to the end of October they are safe they've been hunted hard enough. Trapping season is relatively short so why not let the trappers enjoy their season just like the rifle hunters enjoy their deer season I wouldn't even consider going bird hunting during rifle season. Trapping has always been controversel but once you start banning or restricting a type of trap you are going down a slippery slope. I think there is enough woods and time to enjoy it we can all play nice.

[certified jumbo]

This is a tough issue. I'm a trapper and a bird dog owner. My dog has been caught in both foot holds and snares, but never a 220. I will not hunt my dog on state land, if you do its a big gamble. Not sure what the right answer on this one is. Its a tough one.

The one thing I know for sure is that if people are trapping on state land and people are bird hunting state land, dogs will get killed.

[drewevans]

i bird hunt in se mn and my dogs have been caught in many traps over the years, mostly pan traps a few snares and 1 220..... but i was prepared for it...... i have never trapped but i grew up hunting and in the outdoors and new what a trap was and new that 22o were deadly so i visited a family friend when i was 16 years old who trapped to teach me how to remove a 220 if my dog were to ever get caught in one...... i practiced releasing the pressure then and about every other year till now. it came in handy when my pup got caught in one when she was only a year old.... no harm done....... but i bet she thinks twice before sticking her head in a pale again........

i feel for dog owners that loose their dogs to traps and i realize how easy it is to get angry and point fingers at the trappers but they are doing what they love to do and i am doing what i love to do, if your hunting with dogs you should educate yourself if possible, so atleast your dog will have a fighting chance with your help if they ever do get into a 220.

We have enough restrictions we dont need any more.........

[Xplorer]

I had this happen to my dog just the week before Xmas. There is a wheeler trail that runs 3/4 of a mile over to the main grant in aid trail. I use it in winter to ride my sled over and back from the house. I was out walking it with my husky mix Winnie seeing how many deadfalls I needed to clear, and heard that terrible sound. I knew instantly what it was. I remembered a post here on FM I had read that talked about how to release a 220. Luckily I was able to loosen the grip of it from around the back of her head and she wiggled out unhurt in less than a minute (except for a heckofa headache I bet). This too was a bucket set. I had seen footsteps going into where I knew a deer stand was and thought it was a late season bowhunter with the mild weather we've had.

The trapper actually followed my footsteps all the way to my house. Came to the door and asked if I was down the wheeler trail and what happened. He thought I had taken a bobcat from his set (there are alot of kitty tracks in the area for sure). When I told him it was my dog, he was pretty bummed. We talked for awhile and I assured him that I would never tamper/steal from another's sets, and that as long as he was going to be trapping that area that I would stay outta there except to clear the deadfalls and sled back and forth (if we ever get enough snow to ride). It was good we talked, and we parted with a handshake and respect for each others interests. We need to be aware of what's out there, and trapping is a part of the winter landscape for many of us.

[Scott M]

Good post Xplorer.

http://www.hotspotoutdoors.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2126059/How_to_remove_a_conibear_from_

[Saw557]

It's nice to see the responses I figured I was going to get flamed right out of here. There isn't a trapper alive that wants to catch some bodies pet. I think most of us know we're under the microscope of the general public and try to do the best we can

[BLACKJACK]

Star Trib today had another article concerning this, also includes a video on how to remove a connibear trap, and an online petition to sign if you're against them.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/138013713.html

[leech~~]

I read the article. Are these traps really tricky to use or why can trappers get them off what they catch but people can't get them off their dogs? Just a Q's I don't know and would like to. Thanks.

Got this off a Web site. Would it help? You as a trapper have to be responsible. This trap kills dogs and cats, so make sure you are off the beaten trail before you set. Here in Michigan, we have to have the #220 in dog-proof boxes or 4 feet off the ground.

[jparrucci]

I've made some pretty angry posts in the past regarding land set 220's. A FM'er near me was kind enough to show me the in's and outs of the trap, and let me borrow one to practice on. It was a great learning experience for me. I even set a couple of traps this fall for the first time.

One thing that I learned is if my 40 pound brittany gets his whole head in one, it isn't gonna matter if I know how to release it cause it is likely to snap his neck anyways.

Hunters and trappers have the same goals in mind. But I've learned that the ethics and responsiblities associated with both sports does NOT stick with all. I have come across too many land set 220's on public land in W and SW MN during the pheasant season, including one baited with a pheasant. I have seen a number of traps near parking lots for WMA's. (one within about 20 feet). Trappers are all apparently good people, but read any trapping forum, and the top complaint is traps being stolen by other trappers. I'm sorry, but if you can't put traps in ethical places and your main problem with your sport is stealing each others traps, it is time for somebody else to police you.

Solutions:

Ban all land set body gripping traps on PUBLIC land during open pheasant and grouse seasons. This would only apply to public land. I know the value trappers provide to us bird hunters (although I think it is pretty minimal, I appreciate their efforts). We need predator controls, and trapping is something that has been a sport and passed down through generations. Banning trapping is just a win for the anti's. We can shorten the grouse season in the Northern 1/3 of the state and extend the trapping season further into the spring. All water sets, or any set at least X number of feet off the ground is ok. I have also heard that there is a dog proof coon trap that is available and used in many other states. I'll pay a license fee increase if it gets trappers to turn in the 220's for a dog proof trap, tell me where to send my check.

It is not acceptable to me that these traps are used, and used with poor judgement by too many trappers. If there was an isolated case every couple of years it would be one thing, but from the many reports and what I have seen myself first hand, enough is enough.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

^^^^^^Well said!

[BLACKJACK]

The problem is that its easy for any rookie trapper to throw a conibear trap in a bucket, with a piece of meat for bait and they'll have luck. Lots tougher to set a leg hold trap in the right spot to get the animal to step in it. That takes some skill and experience. In the meantime, peoples pets are getting killed - which just makes a bad name for trappers AND hunters.

Watch that video in the Star Trib article where the guy shows how to unset a conibear trap, doesn't look too easy or fast, does it? Then imagine a 70 pound struggling in that trap, trying to control it, and find a piece of rope, and get it unset. And the article points out that sometimes it doesn't matter, the snap of the trap does enough damage that the dog has to be put down.

Something needs to be done. Trappers aren’t going to be able to police themselves or provide enough education on how to release your dog. If the lead shot ban had been ‘voluntary’ there would still be people out there shooting lead shot. Make it like other states where it has to be four foot up or in water. Its not like trapping is being banned, they can still use the conibear trap, they just have to learn how to use it responsibly. And trappers still would have the leg hold trap option.

[mainbutter]

As a non-trapper and a non-bird-dogger, my opinion on the subject is that ultimately it's the dog owner's responsibility to keep their dog out of harm's way.

You know the dangers, you know the regulations regarding trapping and the potential hazards on public land. Keep your dog safe.

Asking for 220s to be restricted during bird season on public land is just like asking for dogs to be banned on public land during trapping season.

I avoid just about all public hunting land through fall and winter, especially with my dog in tow, even though my other recreational activities would have me out there. Some of that stuff is super fun and interesting to hike/snowshoe/break trails with skis.

[Recon]

Quess, just read, the DNR has decided not to address this problem. The fact that trappers can legally use pheasant and grouse parts, as a lure to these killer sets, during open game bird seasons is just stupid!! So its illegal to bait deer in this state but not to bait my hunting dog. Wow!!!!!

[SneakAttack]

When you mean PUBLIC land jparr for banning conibers, do you mean all state and national forest land to? Thats alot to ask for dont you think?

[motley man]

Trappers are not trying to trap dogs as title suggests. Trappers try to keep sets away from homes, and well traveled areas. It does not pay to catch dogs, skunks, cats etc. The more we ban things only gives the bunny huggers ammo to ban fishing, hunting and all outdoor taking of wild animals. Be sure who is putting out these petitions, and that you are not promoting anti groups. Most anti groups make more money for themselves than they do for the animals. Check their records of what they get payed, only about 10% of what they take in goes out. Look what happened in other states that have banned things and later have problems, but can't do anything because of the bans they imposed. Most trappers don't use land sets until after bird seasons are over, due to people messing with sets. Lets put more into keeping our kids from getting in trouble and killing each other than we do to take hunting and trapping away.

[HookEmHard84]

I am not a trapper, but know some friends that do it. I have not had a run in with a trap while bird hunting, but have two friends who have lost their dogs to traps. I can see the perspectives from both sides on this, but personally hope something is done. With these kinds of issues its always better to error on the side of safety. To me, trappers having to find private land to use, is a far less significant inconvenience than having your dog die in your arms. My friends that trap always say they would never even trap on Public land anyways because there are so many people out there who will steal traps or mess with sets.

I don't even think we need to ban trapping on public lands completely, but we should definitely not have public land open to hunting and trapping at the same time, just seems like common sense to me.

[BLACKJACK]

Trapping doesn't have to be banned on public lands, just ban 220 conibear traps, or as someone else posted require the #220 in dog-proof boxes or 4 feet off the ground. Is that too much to ask to prevent dogs from getting killed??? And leg hold traps could still be used, whats wrong with using them instead??

[BLACKJACK]

Found this on a different forum - from a MN poster. Underlining is me.

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I dont suppose my method is what you are looking for but I will explain it as best as I can. I run 50 220 boxes every year for bobcats. They are out the entire season. I'm in the heart of grouse country and coon and cat country which adds up to lots of sporting dogs. I have NEVER, killed a dog yet.

My sides are 16 inches long with knotches recessed 5 inches. My top is 24 inches long. This leaves my 220 back 13 inches from the top of the box. The inside diameter only fits a 220. A dog has to literally get down on its belly and has to crawl to reach the 220. HOWEVER, a bobcat or coon gets spanked immediately. I also use 100% wooden coni pans so a dog would in all probability trip the 220 with a nose which would deliver a pretty darn good smack on it nose but not kill it. Dont tell anyone that cats or coon wont enter as I have all the proof that they do. Doubt if this helps your situation but it sure works for me.

[jparrucci]

I would definetly say all wmas and wpas would be off limits, but state and federal forest lands would be harder to swallow for many. I think shortening the grouse season up north would be the compromise, or increase fees for a turn in 220's for dog proof traps. When is prime trapping time? Could it start later and end later? Then everyone would win. Give the trappers more time to hunt too.

[LOTWSvirgin]

IN reality it would just be easier to educate and be prepared for something like this to happen if you cant do that how you going to protect you dog from anything else that could happen with hunting

[jparrucci]

I have taken the time and educated myself. The reality is the trap would likely kill my dog immediately even if I got him out fast. The force is too much for a smaller dog to stand a chance

[motley man]

Let,s put this much effort towards stopping gangs on our drug, murder filled streets.

[jparrucci]

Last I checked there were laws for murder

[B-man715]

Solutions:

Ban all land set body gripping traps on PUBLIC land during open pheasant and grouse seasons. This would only apply to public land.

Why not ban all pheasant and grouse hunting (WITH DOGS) on PUBLIC land during open trapping season? This would only apply to public land.

Come on man.......Your dogs are a lot more likely to be killed by a car, coyote or wolf depending on where you hunt. We need to stick together and stay educated. Everytime you drop a dog you risk losing it.........it's all part of it. Sucks, but thats the way it is....

For the record I DO NOT trap.

I DO run beagles on hare and cottontails.

Maybe we should ban snomobiling (on public land) during open snowshoe hare season, so my dogs don't get run over by a bubble head ............

There are enough laws already, we just need to use some common sense....(both trappers and hunters)

A little training with an E-collar and a tipped over bucket wouldn't take much time........

[TylerS]

B-man715 is right on. I agree 100 percent.

[nolte]

In WI it is illegal to dry land set 220s unless elevated. Guys still do ok catching fur. I only trap a little bit, but Dad still likes enjoys it in the fall. We never set any dry land conibear type traps. They do work quite well for water sets though.

I see more guys shifting to relaxing snares. They are cheaper, lighter and not as costly if someone takes them.

[HunterLee]

If they let us run snares right away and on extended checks it wouldn't be a huge issue. But that is the allure of 220's. Once every 3 days for checking. Also it if a dog has any type of leash training no snare would kill it.

[BLACKJACK]

In WI it is illegal to dry land set 220s unless elevated. Guys still do ok catching fur.

Right there is the key, trappers can still have success, all they have to do is elevate their traps. Or use leg hold traps.

By not doing anything it just creates bad publicity everytime a dog is killed by a 220. Is that good for trapping??

As hunters and fisherman, we put up with all kinds of rules and regulations - 4 PM closing for ducks, one line in the summer and two in the winter, Antler Point Restrictions, steel shot, can't shine deer at certain times, removing drain plugs in your boat, the list goes on and on, some rules are biological, some are for social concerns.

Putting a few restrictions on 220's won't be the end of trapping. Its pretty obvious that trappers won't and can't control themselves, experienced trappers will but rookie trappers will look at 220's as an easy way of catching a few critters, so then its time to step in and pass some laws that help society as a whole.

[Random guy]

Well this should come full circle nicely. Take away the 220 on land, a poor plan. A 220 ground set is a very common set for fisher, coon, badger, bobcat, skunk, otter, muskrat and other furbearers that travel across land. Just so we are clear badger, skunk, otter and muskrat don’t climb trees on a regular basis so it is going to be pretty tough to figure out how to get these target species 4 feet off the ground. A guy could use long spring and coils but loss is going to go way up. What will happen is the species the 220 ground set targets with efficiency will once again increase in population due to trapping failures or trappers that just got tired of overregulation and stopped trapping.

How will it come full circle? What do these species the 220 target love to eat? Grouse, pheasant, rabbits, baby ducks and all the same stuff dogs and dog owners chase. So take away the best means of predator control from the land and see what happens to the bird populations…again.

Now as for elevated sets I have one for you. We have trapped since the 1920s in this area and yes we had one dog in a trap. It was an elevated /leaning tree martin set. A bird dog wandered over ¾ mile from his home onto private property and walked his way up a 6” wide log to try and get a piece of meat scrap 5 feet up. From the tracks the dog just walked right up the tree leaning at a 45 and stuck his head in the trap. The owner acknowledged the dog was a problem as it wandered all the time and would go missing for entire days.

Another thing to think about is if you take away the ground set 220 what do you think will happen? Trappers will just use more snares and if the trapper is worth his salt the snare will have knocked the target specious unconscious quickly. No sound, little thrashing and most likely very well hidden. I have had snare sets that incapacitated target species before they could drop the bait out of their mouth. Honesty very little will be gained by eliminating the ground set 220.

Dogs that run and have no control are going to have problems with traps, cars, predators, porcipines and even livestock. Been that way for many years but the news doesnt cover dogs hit by cars or ones that choked on porcipine quills.