APR, QDM, Trophy Hunters, etc....

[john skarie]

When "trophy" hunters describe themselves as patient, ethical, hard-working etc. they are obviously saying that the hunters who don't claim to be "trophy" hunters are not.

I've hunted in the BWCA for years. We've been still hunting and stalking deer up there with good success. Most of our deer our not considered trophies. I would consider our method of hunting to require more work and patience than just about any other way.

JS

[kern]

I have ZERO problem if someone wants to hold out for a mature deer, none, the problem I have is when someone thinks there should be a law that helps there way of hunting. I will never criticize a hunters policies (i guess you could call them) if they are ethical. I personally don't like labeling hunters but if someone tells me a small 8pt is a sub par deer because they have different ideas about deer hunting, that ruffles my feathers a little.

[96trigger]

I haven't read anywhere on here where it was said that "non-trophy" hunters were not those things.

Kern, I never said your deer was sub-par. Congratulations, I am very glad that you are happy with it. I would not have shot him. I would have passed. I'm sorry if that agitates you. I don't hold it against you, I don't know your circumstances. Whatever the case, you decided it was good enough for you and that is just fine.

I guess my question would be why do you care? If you are happy with it, why do you care what anyone on here thinks? I saw a lot of bucks that were immature on the photo threads for both archery and firearm. Lots of congratulations, no condemnations that I read. Even some of the pro QDM guys were congratulating. We are not evil horn hunters contrary to what some might believe. We like to hunt whitetails and pursue bucks with big racks. We have (had) a surplus in deer down in zone 3 and made some changes to try and satisfy more people.

[B. Amish]

So hunting on average 4 or 5 days a week for a month and a half isn't patient, WOW! This is the problem i have with the "trophy" hunting mentality, and why I think people get frustrated is that "trophy" hunters think they are better than the rest of the hunters in the woods! And the 130" comment was supposed to be a quote from above. So back to my question on that, you think a 130 inch is a good deer but what if i continually tell you that deer is not adequate, I'm assuming that would would start to get a little frustrated with me for saying you are shooting sub par deer.

right on!

i am a trophy hunter. never shot a buck under 135" in about 15 years of rifle, bow, and muzzy hunting.

i can't stand the way most people who are in favor of more mature bucks talk about it. there is almost always a demeaning nature to the conversation and an elitist attitude even if they don't intend to be.

[kern]

Trigger,

I don't know you and never said you were an evil person. And believe me, if I decide to shoot a deer, there isn't a person in here or anywhere else that is going to make me personally feel my deer isn't good enough. I also would like to shoot 130+ inch every year but know its not realistic. To tell you the truth, I was on the qda, apr, etc, etc train a quite few years back. I started getting bitter about hunting. Every small buck that was shot, I was the guy that didn't realize that it was a quality deer to the person who shot it. I stopped having fun. After figuring out what was causing me to be so bitter to the sport, my outlook changed and I have been having more fun than ever in the woods. My biggest fear is that a lot of these programs will ruin hunting and everything that goes into the fun side of hunting.

[96trigger]

Thanks Kern,

I don't feel entitled to shoot a 130 inch + buck every year. Trust me, it doesn't happen to me, I am not that lucky, or that good. I will not look down upon anybody that shoots their "trophy" deer. It is a different for everyone. I understand that, my nephew shot his first deer this year, a little 3 pointer. He was ecstatic. Do you think I belittled him for that? He// no, I was probably happier than he was. I will however defend my actions and choices on what I will shoot and not shoot. It doesn't mean that I am belittling your choices or what you shoot at all. I just like deer hunting, I like chasing mature bucks, it is what I am passionate about. Ask my wife, it drives her nuts, she swears I go into rut the same time the bucks do. I don't like being labeled as a trophy hunters, even though when it comes to bucks, I guess I would qualify as one. I still shoot my share of does. Bucks or does, I like to hunt deer and be in the woods. A mature buck is icing on the cake for me.

[kern]

To tell you the truth Trigger,

I would probably be a little more for it if I hunted in a managed zone but when you are in a lottery area it hard to shoot a doe for the freezer and be done. I personally don't like to shoot does because of a bad experience when I was younger but if they don't have fawns i could do that and hold out for a mature deer. I also wasn't trying to say what you are doing is wrong, more power to you! At the end of the day, we are all hunters who enjoy the outdoors. In my personal experiences, we just have to accept each others differences.

[harvey lee]

Ov er the years I have shot many does. When I was younger, all I wanted was a deer and after a few years I took up the sport of archery. Simply for more of a challenge as it surely is just that. The add to that the fact I only wanted a very mature buck made it all the tougher. I still archery hunt today approx 40 years later but now I am willing to harvest somewhat less in Minnesota assd I do not want to sit in a blind or stand all fall waiting for one buck that I will more than likely never see.

Now, that is why I chosee many years ago to not archery hunt Mn and go to Montana or North Dakota as I know my chances are much greater at a chance to harvest a quote trophy whitetail.

I just wish I could hunt Mn by means of archery and not have to sit all fall waiting for that one bruiser. I do enjoy my time in the stand but not all fall for one deer so I have chosen to leave the state.

I guess as many on here have posted that they would simply like to see a rule change in regards to the deer management practices so one could have a few more larger bucks to have a chance to harvest. Nothing to say anyone else can shoot what they please but I will agree that if some changes were made, it could possibly mean some could go without a deer depending on what changes were made.

I believe there could be some changes made to help the buck age increase without affecting too many's annual hunt or harvest results.

I do not know if the state can find a program that could possibly make hunting better for all but I see no reasion not to try.

I am not suggesting that the rules change souly for the benefit of only the so called trophy hunter but in general a better hunt for all if possible.

I believe it could be done but that would never happen unless the majority are willing to give it a try. The DNR will not do anything unless they can see that the results could benefit all and then they could sell more licenses.

Trouble is, it does not matter what the proposal may be as some groupo would for sure be against it as they believe it would end thier hunting success. Maybe it may increase your success also but I doubt we in Mn will ever know that.

[96trigger]

There should not be any type of additional restrictions ever on a lottery or hunters choice zones. Obviously those zones should be managed for population before age structure.

[Jameson]

There should not be any type of additional restrictions ever on a lottery or hunters choice zones. Obviously those zones should be managed for population before age structure.

Those are the areas that need the restrictions the most, especially lottery areas. Sometimes us, the hunters, need to sacrifice some things in the name of conservation.

[wh1stler]

Let me try to break down the Iowa comparison in a way that will make some sense, hopefully.

Let's say each state has a hundred deer

In MN we have 30 antlered bucks. Of those, 25 are yearlings, 4 are 2 year olds, and 1 is a mature 3.5 plus year old. After our hunting season, we are left with 0 mature bucks, 1 2 year old which will be mature next year, and 4 yearlings that will be 2 next year. We will recruit 20 of this years buck fawns and next year we will be exactly where we are now.

In Iowa, or any great whitetail state of your choosing, I think it plays out like this.

They start with 35 bucks because their herd is better balanced. They're still recruiting the same amount of buck fawns as we are, so they have the same amount of yearling bucks, 25. But they have 7 2 year olds and 3 mature bucks. After their season, they kill 20 bucks just like we do, but because the harvest gets spread out a little bit more, they have 7 yearlings that will be next years 2 year olds, 3 2 year olds that will be next years mature bucks, and possibly 1 already mature buck, who will be on a magazine cover next year.

This is, in my opinion, pretty close to reality,

You have stated your opinion. Do you have any research on these numbers to back you up?

[kern]

I would be all in favor for some kind of restriction to make the hunting more enjoyable. I just worry for my three boys that all want to hunt in the future. And actually land to hunt is a bigger concern for me than the deer. If you have good land the deer will be there. I figure in three years my "killing" will be done because once they are all old enough, my main priority will be making sure they enjoy the outdoors and teach them that getting a deer is a bonus. I think I will work way harder for a doe or spike for my kids than a mature deer for myself. what is more enjoyable for kid or a parent than watch them be successful at a sport I love?

[bottom-bouncer]

For me it has to be 3.5 and atleast 130" or I will not kill it.

So what if I said 130" is not a "trophy" and you shouldn't kill anything under 150"

I just don't understand why people can't agree to disagree? I really don't care what people want to kill if it is done within the laws and they use the deer. If they start shooting everything in sight just to kill it, that on the other hand is a problem for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to my side but don't try and tell me what is right for me or what should be a "trophy" in my eyes. Once again, I hunt for memories and the fun of being in the woods, not for bones.

what part of my post did you have trouble understanding thought I made it clear that a trophy is what ever the hunter decides is a trophy. I have my standards and have never belitled any one for shooting any deer. And if you want to talk patients its been 4years since my tag has been wrapped around a set of antlers I shoot some does for the freezer and pass on the bucks that dont meet my standards. Never did I say that anyone should have the sme standards as I set for myself. I can also tell you that most of my efforts are now centered around my kids and wife shooting there deer. You talk as if only people who party hunt understand that hunting is more than just harvesting its about having fun with friends and family and the memorys made during these trips to deer camp. I guess those of us that target mature deer dont have any fun with are familys or friends its all business. We all know that if you cant shoot a buck or two for others it would be no fun. I personally never have fun in the woods EVER! thats why every year I spend thousands of dollars and endless hours in the woods. I guess im still looking for the fun in this sport.

[bottom-bouncer]

I have ZERO problem if someone wants to hold out for a mature deer, none, the problem I have is when someone thinks there should be a law that helps there way of hunting. I will never criticize a hunters policies (i guess you could call them) if they are ethical. I personally don't like labeling hunters but if someone tells me a small 8pt is a sub par deer because they have different ideas about deer hunting, that ruffles my feathers a little.

who said that a small 8pt is subpar? who said that they want more laws I think you are missing the point. We dont need more regs we need to move the season and the last time I checked that would be a change in dates not a a new law we already have a law that says when we can start hunting it would just be a different day on the calender.

[96trigger]

Let me get this right.

Trophy hunters think meat hunters are all brown its down and that they shoot every deer in sight, regardless of size and use multiple tags from multiple people to shoot as many deer as possible. They feel that they are entitled to shoot as many deer as possible.

Meat hunters think that trophy hunters are elitists who only want to shoot deer for the antlers and bragging rights. They could care less about the meat or about the social aspect of hunting. They put themselves before everyone and everything else as they try and fill their tag with a mature buck. They are selfish and often arrogant.

Have I missed anything?

Too bad, I am betting that both of those stereotypes fall into a very small category and probably hardly anyone on this site besides a few. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle like politics, but some lean more one way than the other.

[BobT]

I'm sure these young kids are gonna be fine if they only get one deer. If I wanted to give my tag away, I would buy one and stay back at camp.

Technically, it would be poaching to fill your tag if you're not actively hunting at the same time so sitting back in camp and letting another person fill your tag is a no-no.

[Musky Buck]

Minnesota is no longer the mecca, agreed, because it was is maybe some as to why it isn't. People bought up all the old dairy farms that went under, became hunting ground. Pressure and in my estimation zone 4 going to zone 2, that's pressure related as well. I asked my dad 2 days ago, stand here in his kitchen, 10 years ago how many stands could you see out the window(s), he said 1 ours, I said look from right here, you could see 9 box stands that never existed only a decade ago, we're overpressuring a lower numbered herd and thinning it down more as people are shooting the 1st thing they see realizing they may not see another. The does have really been hit hard so lower numbers can be expected. If you have quality land and enough of it you have very good deer hunting in MN as any decent buck on marginal land will find yours. 100,000 bow hunters, 60,000 muzzy hunters, 480,000 rifle/gun hunters and stands on every 5 acres or every field,small tracts of land with lots of bodies in and around it, it all adds up. I can see why my dad quit deer hunting, it's a joke compared to 20 years ago and it aint going to get better as the way it is now, it can't.

[Getanet]

Let me get this right.

Trophy hunters think meat hunters are all brown its down and that they shoot every deer in sight, regardless of size and use multiple tags from multiple people to shoot as many deer as possible. They feel that they are entitled to shoot as many deer as possible.

Meat hunters think that trophy hunters are elitists who only want to shoot deer for the antlers and bragging rights. They could care less about the meat or about the social aspect of hunting. They put themselves before everyone and everything else as they try and fill their tag with a mature buck. They are selfish and often arrogant.

Have I missed anything?

That looks about right. So which one are you?

[Bear55]

From this link.

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/nrrt/hdfw/documents/Cornicelli_L.pdf

[Musky Buck]

Let's not forget though a year ago after a couple of can't get the corn out of the field years, last year I saw more trophy MN photo's than I ever had, I checked newspapers from around the state and saw wow, this year not even a 1/20th of last year, it's a down year and hopefully we bounce back next year, so far the deer are living stress free this weather etc. thankfully this weather as they'll be eating dirt in most of my areas this winter. Zone 4 please come back.

[Big Dave2]

This year both my brother and I shot nice bucks, two of my cousins shot nice mature bucks. We had two people miss nice mature bucks.

But we still need different regulations or changing the season dates?

[96trigger]

Yep. I guess they are working.

Any more snippets you want to pick apart Dave????

[mntatonka]

There should not be any type of additional restrictions ever on a lottery or hunters choice zones. Obviously those zones should be managed for population before age structure.

by that logic, there should never be any type of additional restriction in intensive harvest areas that doesn't increase the doe harvest, and APR/elimination of cross tagging does not increase the doe harvest.

[96trigger]

It is supposed to increase doe harvest, the no cross tagging is only on bucks, the theory is that passing small bucks will encourage more people to take does. Whether or not it does is up to be debated.

[Getanet]

That doe issue won't actually need to be debated. We should be able to review the Deer Harvest Data in Zone 3 after the 3-year term for APRs and see if doe harvest numbers are higher, lower or the same as past years.

[Stratosman]

Holy christ the never-ending debate...

Hey Trigger, still not sure where you stand on the subject..

Anyway, this topic could be debated till the end of time. I see it two ways: Sure I like the idea of more opportunity at mature deer, but we work our a.sses off all year to try to put one on the ground, they aren't meant to come easy, don't want them to.. my buddies and I pass up tons of immature bucks every year, but enjoy every second of it. And we normally eat tag soup 2 outof 3 seasons..but that's fine, that's our choice. I hunt both Zone 3 and 2, I so far, like the idea of APR's in zone 3 and believe it will show results.

However, having larger bucks can ruin hunting for the everyday Joe. Look at any bick buck county in WI, IA, OH, IL, KS, ect... all leased up to outfitters, why, cause big bucks bring big money. Once again the blue collar worker/hunter is screwed again! Can't blame the farmers, they have the right to make money, would like to but can't blame the outfitters, again, capitalist economy, good for them. Who would we blame if it happened here?

SO, APR although maybe benificial to allowing more bucks to rach maturity, could also be the beginning of the end for deer hunting as we know it. So let's all be carefull of what we wish for.

Good hunting!

[Musky Buck]

I think many in my 1 area have this issue, there's 19 hunters/stands and roughly 20 deer in the section this year using about 200 acres of cover. 5 years ago there were about 60 deer in the same section. Deer all over the place so shoot shoot shoot 5 years ago, now they wonder what happened, where'd they all go so I better shoot what I see, in that area it'll be tough for them to come back in decent numbers and more deerless the hunters are the itchier the trigger finger. Some of these characters didn't realize filling their dogs tag, dead aunts tag, and finally some of their own they were just sabotaging themselves for down the road, but you can't let the neighbors get them right. It'll be interesting 5 years from now to see what our deer/seasons look like, way too many days with rifle in hand in our farm country, I know the 1st day accounts for what % of the harvest but it's those final 3 days that slim down the slim herd further then muzzy gets another 4-6% of the harvest but oh well, just realize the golden days are gone, buried, done. Just like when Musky fishing used to be peaceful and awesome fishing then came along 200,000 more anglers and it's done. Turkey hunting in my area is also getting out of hand. The more popular it is...........it's exactly like my dad said it would be 20 years ago.

[eyedawg]

Why did the dnr try the Apr down in southern mn? Do they plan on trying it elsewhere in mn because from what I've heard and read quite a few people like the results so

far, your always guna have people that oppose to trying new things but they shouldn't object if they have not tried it. Maybe more people would think its not such a bad idea after all?

[kern]

Trigger,

If you are so much more patient and persistant than me, why do we need the changes? This whole conversation sounds like there should be big bucks running every where you look and to me that doesn't sound like patience.

[Stratosman]

Why did the dnr try the Apr down in southern mn? Do they plan on trying it elsewhere in mn because from what I've heard and read quite a few people like the results so

far, your always guna have people that oppose to trying new things but they shouldn't object if they have not tried it. Maybe more people would think its not such a bad idea after all?

Because zone 3 has the right terrain, cropland to woods ratio, deer herd and genetics to make it work. Most of the other areas of MN do not. I would be very surprised to see it go statewide. It would need to be limited to not only certain zones, but certain permit areas within zones, our landscape varies that much in MN. And to figure that out and regulate that would be impossible.