FIRE FRAZIER!!

[reinhard1]

speaking as a non expert, i thought there was a rule that a game cant end on a defensive foul, is that correct? ok, i looked it up and on the last play of the half or game if there is a penalty by the defense the down will be re-played if the penalty is accepted. good luck.

[schmitty3]

does anyone know for sure - if they called the facemask, would we have kept the ball? or would it have been tacked on at the end of the lion's recovery?

Yes we woulda got the ball back half the distance to the goal, and the game can't end on a defensive penalty, so we woulda had another play at the half yard line.

[nofishfisherman]

For anyone who thinks Ponder is a lost cause beause he's thrown some picks, get a little perspective. Peyton Manning threw 28 INT as a rookie. Aikman had 9 TD and 18 INT. Carson Palmer had 18 INT. Eli Manning had 6 TD and 9 INT in his 9 games.

Just as it's too early to say Ponder is the franchise QB we've needed for years, it's WAY too early to write him off.

I was just looking at those stats today as well. If you look at Peyton Manning's rookie year the stats are actually almost identical.

Here are the stats if you projected Ponder out over a complete 16 game season.

Manning- Comp%- 56.7%, TD's- 26, Turnovers- 31(28 Ints), QB Rating- 71.2

Ponder- Comp%- 55.7% TD's- 22, Turnovers- 32(22 Ints), QB Rating- 73.4

Obviously this doesn't mean we can expect him to be the next Peyton Manning but it does tell us that we can't write him off just yet.

[LMITOUT]

How about Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, or Cade McNown?

[nofishfisherman]

How about Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, or Cade McNown?

Here you go.

10 game rookie season

Leaf - Comp%- 45.3, TDs- 2, Ints- 15, QBRating- 39.0

10 game rookie season

McNown - Comp% - 55, TDs- 8 Ints- 9, QBRating- 68.5

11 game rookie season

Shuler - Comp% - 45.3 TDs- 10 Ints- 12, QBRating- 59.6

Not that this means anything but it looks like Ponder is well up on these guys. Ponder has more TD's through 8 games than Leaf and McNown had in 20 combined games. His completion percentage and QB rating is also much higer than all three.

Really the only thing the comparison with Manning shows is that you can't make an accurate judgement on a QB after just his rookie season.

[Jarrid Houston]

Frazier seems like a better D coordinator than a head coach, Vikes shouldnt fire him, just get him back to his comfort zone, and bring in a new guy. JEFF FISHER??????

[pikestabber]

Webb did fine for the time he had today. gave the Lions a scare right down to the last face mask. good luck.

Not that it matters in the whole scheme of things, but how did that penalty not get called? So blatant, so obvious. It didn't happen away from the play it WAS the play. I know they can't catch 'em all, but that was pathetic.

[reinhard1]

i dont think Frazier can throw the red flag on that type of action, that is the ref's duty to watch that play. ya, it's frustrating when you see this, but it was more than this one play that created this loss. i was impressed however how the Vike's came back from what looked like a complete wipeout at the start. good luck.

[LMITOUT]

QB rating is a meaningless stat for the most part, but nonetheless Ponder is just as much on par with those stiffs as he is with the big dogs and comparing stat lines at this point is laughable and a waste of time. It proves nothing.

[LMITOUT]

Oh BTW, Todd Haley is available.

[nofishfisherman]

QB rating is a meaningless stat for the most part, but nonetheless Ponder is just as much on par with those stiffs as he is with the big dogs and comparing stat lines at this point is laughable and a waste of time. It proves nothing.

I think if you look at the numbers he's much closer to Manning than any of those other guys. Actually he's almost dead even with Manning in every stat. But like you said these stats are pretty much meaningless, it doesn't tell you what kind of player he'll be in the future.

All that it shows is that one year does not make or break a QB.

[2k1stang]

Not that it matters in the whole scheme of things, but how did that penalty not get called? So blatant, so obvious. It didn't happen away from the play it WAS the play. I know they can't catch 'em all, but that was pathetic.

[Born2Fish]

Missed that call....There are like 8 refs on the field for every single play. And somehow the ONE guy who is supposed to watch what is happening when the QB takes the snap couldn't see the facemask because "The players back was to the ref and running away"? I think that is a cop out on the refs part. That foul is called almost every time, specially when it happens to a QB or ball carrier. And somehow he just happened to miss it? How about the 7 other refs watching? Not a single one seen that happen? Not that it matters too much now anyway.

[nofishfisherman]

Really the refs might have saved us from dropping a spot or two in the draft. We should be thanking him.

Right now I don't think a win is in the best interested of the long term future. It might be fun to see but I'd rather have a higher pick that may help win more meaningful games in the future.

I'm sure thats what the team is thinking in keeping AP out. If we are in a playoff chase there is zero chance AP sites out yesterday.

[LMITOUT]

Minnesota should be following KC's and Miami's lead of getting rid of some dead weight.

[reinhard1]

i think winning is important to the players and the orginization. the younger players are playing for jobs for next season, if not on this team another team i'm sure is looking. if your in the top 5 draft your going to get a great player if not the top ten. the no. 1 draft is valuable in my opinion for furture draft spots, trading down with additional players from a team and more. there will also be free agents looking for work with talent at various positions. regardless how this season ends the Vike's will have a good draft opertunity, just depends who they pick, trade, and aquire during free agent contract opertunities. good luck.

[FISHINGURU]

That was awesome that they missed that call, finally the Vikes get lucky for once! That would of sucked if Spud would of scored.

[MuleShack]

That was awesome that they missed that call, finally the Vikes get lucky for once! That would of sucked if Spud would of scored.

As much as I hate saying that, I am actually good with loosing. It makes no sense at this point to win another game. Get your people out there and play, see what they got and cut the dead weight at the end of the season. Don't think about who might do well over the summer, if they sux now, cut em and see what comes up in free agency or fill with the draft.

A higher draft choice can always mean more picks if you trade down.

In order to have some offense we need to come up with a decent wide out. I swear unless there is a blown coverage, they cant get separation. Percy and our TE duo are pretty good, but outside (pun) of that average is a stretch. Perhaps that is part of the QB problem where the DB's are quicker than the wide outs.

Also, I dont agree that Frazier gets canned this year, he should atleast be allowed another year. with the lock out, they had little to no time to do free agency. He pretty much had to play the hand he was dealt. If he makes some of the same bone head mistakes next year, then i would change my opinion. If he does have a master plan in mind for this team, it wont change in one season. But as others have said, we do need a GM and Leslie can just focus on game planning and execution.

I would like to see him open up a little more at the press conferences instead of playing the same pre-recorded message all the time...show a personality a little.

[LMITOUT]

The shortened preseason excuse for Leslie's poor performance is hogwash.

Just ask Jim Harbaugh.

[Rick]

It's not hogwash. Harbaugh had huge talent on that 49ers team that grossly underperformed last year.

Not saying I believe in Frazier yet...like I believed in Tomlin before he left...but it would be nice to see him another season after he has a full off-season and training camp to prepare.

[nofishfisherman]

The Harbaugh comparison is the only thing thats hogwash. Harbaugh took over a ready made team with a bunch of talent. He got them to play to their potential but in the end he had a ton more talent to work with.

In reality how many wins do you think Frazier or the coaches have cost us this year? I'm not sure I can pin any particular loss on them. In the end it comes down to players making plays. You can call the exact right play at the exact right time, you can work the clock perfectly, you can be 100% on your challenges and it all still comes down to the players. If your players aren't as talented as the other team you are going to lose more often than not. Of course you may pull out a win here or there but in general the team with more player talent is going to win.

[reinhard1]

and then there are those who think the Lions will make the playoffs this year. look at their talent. sure they have some injuries but the Vike's with a less talented team in general and also with injuries including Peterson were one play away from beating them. look at the lead they had this time around. There is not a coach in the NFL that could have made a difference with the Vikes this year. What will it say about the Saints with only 3 losses if the Vike's make it a close game or even beat them. If it ends up being a close game it will say a lot more about the Vike's than the Saints. good luck.

[LMITOUT]

So who was the coach of the 49ers before Harbaugh?

Oh yeah, Leslie's buddy who's now a coach for the Vikings.

Starting to get the picture,yet???

Alex Smith? Really? Yeah, none of the 49er's success is due to bringing in a competent coach.

Going into the season we were told on this very message board that the Vikings had plenty of talent and that's why we needed to bring in a veteran QB to fill the gap and potentially give the team a chance of succeeding. Now after a horrid season it's due to a lack of talent? That's why nobody takes you guys serious.

Absolutely baffling how anybody could make an excuse for Leslie to remain as coach. 5-14 since he took over? Staring at the worst record in franchise history?

It's hilarious to see Ponder's INT stats put up against a superstar QB in an attempt to connect dots that are light years apart, yet when the under performing coach is compared to another that has done great things in just one year, a hold-out shortened year as we are constantly reminded, that argument is dismissed...

[toughguy]

Leslie is in over his head this year. He (and his staff) have cost us at least 3 games on play calling at the end of games alone. He's worse at replay challenges than Chili - who would have thought that was even humanly possible. It was his idea to get McNabb too. If he can get rid of Musgrave, get some talent in the secondary and O-Line, teach AP to catch a ball, and pull his head out of his rear maybe he can turn this thing around. If all of those things happen next year and they miss the playoffs he should be fired.

I would just like to see a little more fire from him. He should be angry games are going like this. Answer some questions at the press conferences. Give me a little emotion!!!! PLAYOFFS???@#$@# YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT PLAYOFFS???? PLAYOFFS??? Why are the fans more upset with the losses than he is?

[Snag]

I wonder if Tice and Chilly are smiling somewhere.

The only this Lezlie is good at is explaining what they could have done better after a loss.

[Rick]

That's why nobody takes you guys serious.

LOL

Actually LMIT, we've all learned not to take you seriously when it comes to the vikes. We all know you're here to make an attempt at ruffling feathers with anti-viking rhetoric.

As for Frazier, yeah, he's done nothing to impress yet

We should have Tomlin..now there's a coach.

[fishersofmen]

Is the Sheriff available......

[2k1stang]

I agree with LMIT, whether it was sarcastic or not. Play calling has been horrible, McNabb was brought in because they were both in Philly, and why would you start a rookie QB that practiced 1 day last week? Not to mention that his sideline presence really irks me. You're down 21-0 against the lions, and you have the same stupid demeanor on the sidelines? Not talking to anyone, arms crossed, and looking slightly down while staring off into the distance. Every time they showed him on TV there wasn't an assistant coach within 10 feet of him. You've got 16 regular season games to prove you are worth having as a head coach, try showing you want to be a head coach.

/rant

[MuleShack]

The shortened preseason excuse for Leslie's poor performance is hogwash.

Just ask Jim Harbaugh.

I didn't say I agreed with what he did. BUTT your going into a new season with TJack, JWebb and a rookie. None of which inspire confidence. I didn't care for the McNubb acquisition at all, but in a lot of peoples mind, Tjack wasn't the answer either. So either way we would have started the season out with a less than stellar QB. Since that is your bread and butter and no receivers it isn't a very good equation.

Speaking of Harbaugh, doesn't he also have these guys?

• 15 Crabtree, Michael
• 17 Edwards, Braylon
• 19 Ginn Jr., Ted

I think that surpasses our wide outs in quality by a long shot.

Yes there have been bone headed play calls. Does he need to step in more to the offense and get involved? Definitely!! Not even sure he is really involved with play calling. He seems the type to delegate instead of instigate with his management style. This works for some, as long as you have capable people in other positions. He doesn't so he needs to change his style and get involved more on game day.

Do I think he is the long term solution, probably not. But to fire the guy because he took over a club and couldn't make any changes is not totally fair.

In all fairness, if we would have started Webb or Tjack (instead of McNubb) and with those close games in the beginning of the season, we could have been equal to last season at maybe 6 wins. But when we are this far in the hole, I cant see why they would want to win any more games.

[flipper]

LOL

Actually LMIT, we've all learned not to take you seriously when it comes to the vikes. We all know you're here to make an attempt at ruffling feathers with anti-viking rhetoric.

As for Frazier, yeah, he's done nothing to impress yet

We should have Tomlin..now there's a coach.

Honestly, this is the only forum topic where I do take LMIT seriously. When it comes to Vikings football he is objective and right on.