Zone 3 APR

[B. Amish]

you cannot tell the background genetics of any deer by physical appearance . You ate assuming a 3 year 6 pointers genetics are inferior and with the genetic makeup of minnesotas deer that most likely is NOT the case. In all likelihood he has the same very fine genetics as the 10 pointer next to him. Bottom line, you cannot tell the background genetics if a deer by physical appearance. And that you cannot argue!

this isn't about individual deer. it's just not. on an individual level, nothing about high grading applies to the population as a whole.

this is about a population of deer. when you make the population follow rules for what lives and what doesn't, you'll have consequences. it's happened with sunfish in our lakes, musky nuts are worried about it happening to muskies. and it's been documented to happen with deer and apr's.

the brown and down theory has absolutely nothing to do with altering genetics. because every deer is treated exactly the same. if it's in range, it gets shot. there are no physical characteristics that drive the selection process of a brown and down hunter.

how can you keep dismissing high grading as a mute point? every where you look, biologists have the same fears about high-grading as i posted earlier. and these are real biologists that aren't hired by national deer organizations that may have a bias about what they preach to their biased audience, who employs said biologist through their memberships to said organization.

what do you want? for it to happen in mn before it's acknowledged? because it happened in Miss, but they have different deer than we do, it can't happen here? what happened in other states regarding high grading should be obvious that its a concern. and that's exactly what i am, CONCERNED!!

[james_walleye]

Can u argue that you know the genetic background of an individual deer? This rare 3 year old 6 pointer that I have never witnessed.?

[B. Amish]

huh?

[PEATMOSS]

James,

If I am a dairy farmer and I divide my herd in half, in one group, I send my best 50% of milk producers to market and in the other group I send my lower 50% producers to market, which group will likely produce more milk?

If I have an apple orchard of 200 trees and at 4 years I divide the orchard in half. On one side I cull the smallest 50% of trees and on the other side I cull the largest 50% of trees which side will likely yield more apples?

If I own a racehorse ranch and divide the horses into 2 groups, one group, I send the fastest 50% of the group to the glue factory, the other group, I send the slowest 50% to the glue factory. Which group do you think will yield more winning racehorses?

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL US ALL WHAT MAKES DEER EXEMPT FROM THE BASIC LAWS OF BIOLOGY

[james_walleye]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota.

And u can assure you, for every biologist that thinks gene grading us s concern, you will find 2 who do not.

As far as your huh.... read above to see the context of that post.

[PEATMOSS]

Can u argue that you know the genetic background of an individual deer? This rare 3 year old 6 pointer that I have never witnessed.?

NO. On an individual basis, a 3 1/2 year old 6-pointer may well have the genetics to be a potential Booner. I'll gladly conceed that.

However, if we look at the probabilities over the entire herd, A 3 1/2 year old 6pointer is much less likely to be a potential Booner than a 3 1/2 year old 8 pointer. Look at the herd as a whole.

[B. Amish]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota.

And u can assure you, for every biologist that thinks gene grading us s concern, you will find 2 who do not.

As far as your huh.... read above to see the context of that post.

so find me two biologists. you ask for proof, but have you got anything solid to say that it doesn't exist?

on a small level you won't see genetic influence because bucks travel. dispersement, and bucks and does are probably moving in and out of the city of rochester constantly. there is no isolation of the population to impact genetics.

on a large level however, like statewide, when everything has to follow the same rules, and you start to lose that outside influence on the inner populations, you'll see the influence of selecting on a physical characteristic rear its head.

[james_walleye]

You won't see it on a smaller level? They are probably moving in and out of the city limits? Pretty spotty arguement. In a smaller number of animals the effects should be quicker and more drastic.

Another curious thought, the people that bring up grading love to dote on that rare 3 year old 6 pointer, that may or may not be genetically inferior, and how it gets a free pass. As of yet I haven't seen anyone mention, as in the case if last year, the couple thousand genetically superior bucks that got a free pass. No one has mentioned the possible effects of breeding and genetics when it comes to that........hmmmmmm

[james_walleye]

Seems to me the difference is you have a pretty good idea of the background of everything in your example. Ya if I take 100 bucks that I know are inferior and breed them, we know what will happen. But this isn't a controlled experiment where we know the background of the subject. That is what is different.

[B. Amish]

You won't see it on a smaller level? They are probably moving in and out of the city limits? Pretty spotty arguement. In a smaller number of animals the effects should be quicker and more drastic.

spotty arguement? it's ecology 101.

[james_walleye]

Ok so the deer in the heart of the city are being affected by deer 20 mules away. Because that's about how far you have to go to get to any outside hunting pressure of note. Got ya......

[james_walleye]

I have one for u peat. You are given 100 race horses. The only background you have is that each came from good bloodlines, but you know nothing of the parents. But a couple are not up to spec. They aren't what you want. They aren't fast. But you breed them anyway with a couple females in which all you know about them is they came from good bloodlines as well, but also you don't specifically know the "parents". What will the outcome be?

[B. Amish]

Ok so the deer in the heart of the city are being affected by deer 20 mules away. Because that's about how far you have to go to get to any outside hunting pressure of note. Got ya......

glad you're catching on.

still waiting patiently for your 2 biologists and your facts to back up your rhetoric.

[james_walleye]

I will not name my sources on the internet. I will say again they have worked closely with Lou on different items. They told me most biologists agree that gene grading will not be an issue in mn. Some go so far as to say its inconceivable to see it in mn with the genetic base that is in place. I'll also say I couldn't care less if you believe it or not. The only reason I've posted this afternoon is because peat invited me back in after a personal attack.

[creepworm]

The park in the city limits is not a useable example at all. Hunting pressure in city limits is far less than it would be elsewhere.

[james_walleye]

Who's talking about a park??? I'm talking about a couple thousand deer within about a 15 mile radius in which no one will shoot a 6 pointer. Amish says that's still to small of a sample size. Um just curious what the threshold is? A county, couple counties? Zone 3? In which outside influences will not have enough effect.

[james_walleye]

I've said my peace on this. I am out on this topic. It's in the legislators hands now. We will see what happens.

[Jameson]

So explain to me why here in the city limits of Rochester, where the only hunting pressure for a longtime, has been bow pressure on large bucks. No one us going to shoot a 6 pointer of any age with what is running around. If gene grading hasn't occurred in this micro level in Minnesota, what makes you think it will happen on a macro level in Minnesota....

The bow hunters there are certainly targeting bucks that are all 3.5 plus. Maybe a couple 2.5 year olds. Hunters of Minnesota will be shooting all legal deer 1.5 years old and up. Also the bow hunters in Rochester are dealing with a decent sized herd and very few hunters, so it will take longer for the effects to show there compared to some of our Lottery areas where nearly every legal buck is killed each year.

[B. Amish]

james,

a 25 mile radius of rochester extends to about pine island to the north, plainview to the ne, st. charles to the east, almost to spring valley to the south, and to dodge center to the west.

amish

[james_walleye]

I just reread that Amish, it was a typo, I meant 15, with about 6-8 being Rochester proper. Everything on the outside of town is leased up to both bowhunted n goosehunters.

[psepuncher]

Pennsylvania's antler restrictions softened

ERIE TIMES-NEWS

: April 12. 2011 3:29PM

The Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners took the first step at their January meeting to change the antler restriction definitions in the current four-point area in the western Wildlife Management Units.

The idea of changing antler restrictions in the four-point area began a year ago when Game Commissioner Robert Schlemmer and I were hearing from many sportsmen about the difficulty of seeing brow tines,” said Game Commissioner Ralph Martone.

Today they met to write the language of the 4 point rule to 3 points to a side.

[RuttenBuck]

I really think people are over-reacting to the "high-grading" genetic theory. If everyone targeted to shoot only the first legal buck they saw, I can see the possibility of having negative affects after many years of practice. However, the popularity of passing on immature bucks is growing in hopes of allowing them to mature so some younger deer with better genetics will survive. If you really believe after a 3 year trial we have altered our genetic footprint to where it is even worth mentioning, you need to find something else to worry about.

There are so many variables that play into a bucks rack and genetics is probably the hardest variable to control. There are many articles surrounding "cull" bucks and how it is almost impossible to alter the genetics of free ranging deer. I don't see how targeting inferior bucks is any different than targeting superior bucks.

The bottom line in all of this de-regulation is people don't like to be told they can't do something. Some people had to go back to work Monday after hunting season and tell their buddies, they didn't get "their" buck. I can't imagine

how emabarrasing that must have been. Oh wait, I do know that feeling... happens to me most years.

I might not be speaking for all hunters who practice QDM but I'm going to say a lot of them feel this way, but I really don't need to harvest a mature buck to have had a great season. I just need to know there are a few around and catching them on trail camera and hunting for their sheds in the spring gets me through the many years in between successful harvests of mature deer. If APR isn't acceptable, lets compromise again. Unfortunately, the other 50% of the hunters don't want to give even a little.

For all of you against the 3 year trial, I'd like to hear your better solution for reducing deer numbers and increasing the age structure in bucks.

[DHost21]

Wow Ruttinbuck that was the best post i saw so far! I agree completely that just knowing they are there with trail cams and the shed hunting definitely gets me by until i get a crack at a nice deer. Its about more than just harvesting a deer its everything that goes into hunting the nature and friends that all comes with it. I agree also that its the people that are so against any rules that are making this hard. I would bet the people that are for APRs are willing to compromise in ways and just want some sort of regulation i know i dont need exactly a 4 point restriction i could go with earn a buck or buck lottery or APR or any other type of restriction that helps young bucks grow and that makes people take more does. I will let my DNR tell me what works the best out of all those but im willing to compromise with many different things but like you said its the people that dont want to be told what to do that are making this difficult. They are so special and its there "right" to shoot a deer and that just [PoorWordUsage] me off. Its a privilege to hunt not a right and if the DNR wants to make rules to help out the deer herd and to help grow mature deer. Follow the rules stop thinking youre above the law and shouldnt be told what to do. Im willing to compromise so now you guys have to too even if that means you cant shoot the absolute first deer you see

[Bear55]

Well said RuttenBuck, I'm not really huge on APR either way but it sure sounds like political scare tactics in here.

Guys shooting the first legal buck they see will always do so, and the same for the guys passing basket 8's with good genes so really nothing changes. A few 1.5 year old buck with good genes are going to get picked off every year, maybe a fraction of a % more with APR in place. Then when you factor in a wild herd and take 50% off of everything because the does are providing half the genes those whole high grading thing isn't much to worry about.

[nonteepical]

Kip Adams, QDMA’s director of education and outreach, notes that, as far as yearling bucks go, point restrictions don’t always do the job. “Where you have really good habitat, such as in parts of the Midwest, yearling bucks can have six and even eight points,” says Adams. “As a result, antler-point restrictions of three or four points to one side wouldn’t keep these bucks out of the harvest. In such cases, antler-spread restrictions do a much better job at focusing the harvest onto older bucks.

Apr's were a compromise, blame MDHA and brown it's down for that one not QDMA or Bluffland. a 16" spread is what was originally proposed with no point restriction, at 16" spread is 99.9% guarantee to be 2.5 years old and thats what all this is about, letting more 1.5 year olds survive the season. Letting youth take anything is the only proposal that was'nt a compromise, MDHA hee'd and haw'd about that one too.

Using Missippi as a model compared to Minnesota is a joke, for one thing they can take 3 bucks per hunter per season. Mississippi State University is part of Mississippi's wildlife management so why haven't they repealed the APR rule if it's so negative.

[PostFrontal]

Hockey: "Beating a dead horse." HAAAAAAA...Awesome!

What Pennsylvania did to change their APR was what I originally posted to start this thread. 3 points one side, browtines don't count as a point. I think that would go a long way to alleviate the problems with identifying deer, which was from what I have read, the biggest complaint. And even though I am for apr for the 3 years, and I sit on stand all day, the problem I saw with the way it was structured was it is tough to identify in the split second for those that do drives.

Thought that wasn't discussed on all the biology/genetics thing: there are trophy deer right now, genetically inferior deer, and everything inbetween. From what I have read, trophy deer only do a certain percentage of the breeding. Not the majority because there is only a small percentage of them and way more does and other kinds of bucks. That means that these does are being bred by every deer under the sun. Does that mean that all trophy bucks came from trophy bucks breeding? Or is it possible that some of these inferior and in-between bucks carry the trophy genes but it skips them for whatever reason and the next generation can be a trophy buck? Like twins or albino skip generations in humans? I don't know, I'm not a biologist.

Since Muskies were mentioned, I have to give an analogy that relates to letting young bucks go. 8 years ago when we were fishing Lake Minnetonka almost everything we caught was 38-43 inches. We released them all. We had no idea which one had trophy potential and which ones didn't. Now we are catching the majority in the 46-53 inch range. How do we know which ones grew into the trophys and which ones didn't?

Also, the muskies in the lakes that have tulibees and ciscos are a whole different animal (larger/fatter) than ones where the main forage base is perch. I would think that would be the same, and a legitimate argument, when you are talking about the minerals/cropland of SE MN as compared to other states that some are saying APR doesn't work, and even other parts of MN.

So instead of doing basement biology, let's let it run the 3 years and see what happens.

[Bear55]

Apr's were a compromise, blame MDHA and brown it's down for that one not QDMA or Bluffland. a 16" spread is what was originally proposed with no point restriction, at 16" spread is 99.9% guarantee to be 2.5 years old and thats what all this is about, letting more 1.5 year olds survive the season.

Wow I would love to hunt where you do, I think I have maybe seen one or two 2.5 year old with a 16 inch spread. The other 99% of two year olds I let walk had spreads less than 16. Heck the 3.5 year old I shot last year only had a 15.75 inch spread so I might leave out those 99.9 guarantees.

Not that using spread is a bad idea it is just much harder to judge, especially when you get into that 14 to 16 inch range.

[nonteepical]

width of it's ears was what was proposed. i wrote 16" since thats about tip to tip on a mature deer. and i'll still guarantee 99.9% with a 16" spread, at least 2.5 years old

[heat checker]

Given the fact that we have very limited control who the sires will be and no control over who the dams will be or what their genetic potential is, I've concluded that the high-grading theory is hogwash.

Just curious, are you people that believe this theory in the meat hunting category, or just think APR's are the wrong way to grow bigger bucks?

A simple solution to this would be to simply move the firearms season out of the rut?

[B. Amish]

how can you call it hogwash when its happened in at least three places that have tried aprs?

i just don't get it.

i'm against them and i've never shot a buck that didn't go on my wall... ever. i've been doing qdm long before it was the sexy thing to do. i'm far far far from a brown and down guy.

i'm out on this. i at least hope the points i've made makes some of you guys think outside the box on this.

and by the way. the way to increase doe harvest and also increase age structure in bucks is a buck lottery.