Zone 3 APR

[PEATMOSS]

And the one that really gets me everytime: Why don't we have the trophies like Iowa and Wisconsin, we need APR so we can be at the top of the Boone and Crocket List....

This is ALL it's about. Everything else is just lipstick on a pig.

[nonteepical]

Here's something people are missing, on average where aprs are in.place, by the 3rd year, the buck harvest success rate returns to what it was before aprs were in place.

[helpme]

I do know one thing we all agree on! We all agree to disagree.

[PEATMOSS]

Here's something people are missing, on average where aprs are in.place, by the 3rd year, the buck harvest success rate returns to what it was before aprs were in place.

Here's something else people are missing. Since 2006, there has been a nationwide downward trend in both B&C (-10%) and P&Y (-18%) entries.

Could it be possible that management practices like APR that promote the removal of genetically superior bucks are starting to deplete the gene pool? Something to seriously consider as this year will be the year that Z3 starts to whack all the better 2 1/2 year olds and leave the smaller ones to breed.

[Jameson]

I have been thinking about this the last couple days and if the whole basis of APR in zone 3 was to get people to shoot more doe's, why didn't they try the Earn a buck plan?....

lack of spine.

[InTheNorthwoods]

What I get a kick out of is the attitude of those who want to manage everyone elses land for their own personal benefit.

Most people enjoy shooting and seeing big bucks, but not at the expense of being able to enjoy the hunting experience.

The whole thing is rediculous. Even suggesting that you should have the right to tell your neighbor what size antlers he must have on his venison burgers! If he feeds them on his land, I think he has every right to take them at the age of tenderness he prefers.

Now antler point restrictions on public lands...go for it! Public resource, public opinion should reign.

Not to stray to far off the heart of this matter, but I feel this needs to be clarified in order to fully understand the issue:

The deer that live and travel on, over, and around your land ARE A PUBLIC RESOURCE.

Just because you own the land, doesn't mean you own the animals on it. Quite the opposite in fact. Animals are owned by the State. So whether you hunt on your own land, the states' land, or federal land - you are hunting the States' animals. Which is exactly why you need to be issued a tag by the State to harvest the States' animals. Because they are the States' animals, the State can regulate how they are hunted, when they are hunted, and which animals can be hunted.

As to my opinion of APR's, I have thoroughly explained my position in the past, and will save myself from carpal tunnel by not engaging in this debate again.

[helpme]

If I am feeding MY deer I do not think my neighbor should be able to shoot MY deer.

[InTheNorthwoods]

If I am feeding MY deer I do not think my neighbor should be able to shoot MY deer.

Is this in jest, or do you own, raise, and ranch captive deer?

[Bear55]

Here's something else people are missing. Since 2006, there has been a nationwide downward trend in both B&C (-10%) and P&Y (-18%) entries.

Could it be possible that management practices like APR that promote the removal of genetically superior bucks are starting to deplete the gene pool? Something to seriously consider as this year will be the year that Z3 starts to whack all the better 2 1/2 year olds and leave the smaller ones to breed.

I am neutral on this subject but that is highly unlikely, last time I checked the handful of state with APR were putting out more book animals then before. I also strongly believe we are not capable of altering the genetics of a wild deer herd in such a short time span if at all. It might be possible you are looking at many decades of "high grading" to make that kind of an impact.

The simple answer to your question is a lower overall population of whitetails across the country. Northern MN, Upper and Lower Michigan, WI, and probably a few more of the northern states have seen their deer populations drop from the peak years of the mid 2000's.

I of course can't find any numbers to back this up but you have to ask if there is really a APR conspiracy that MN is now a part of or are there just less deer leading to less mature bucks being shot.

[Getanet]

I of course can't find any numbers to back this up but you have to ask if there is really a APR conspiracy that MN is now a part of or are there just less deer leading to less mature bucks being shot.

One thing that is likely adding to less record book bucks being shot is the fact that across the country hunting numbers are dropping. These statistics are taken from a Dec 9, 2010 USA Today article:

*The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates 33 states saw declines in hunting license sales the last two decades.

*Massachusetts has seen a 50% falloff in hunting license sales during that time.

*Michigan has seen a 31% drop in license sales the past 20 years

*Pennsylvania license sales have dipped 20% the past two decades

*Wisconsin 2.5% the past 20 years. But firearms license sales dropped 9% between 2000 and 2009.

[picksbigwagon]

I do know one thing we all agree on! We all agree to disagree.

+1.....I know my opinion has changed on this topic, simply from letting the conversation and discussion continue in a civil way (hint hint)

[nonteepical]

The average age of hunters is increasing. We aren't recruiting the young hunters, my opinion is because of divorce, its a lot easier for dad to go hunting on his own than drive an extra hundred miles to pick up the kids and school activities have the kids way to busy to do anything else but school related stuff. Hunter numbers declining isn't because of hunting laws.

[PEATMOSS]

I of course can't find any numbers to back this up but you have to ask if there is really a APR conspiracy that MN is now a part of or are there just less deer leading to less mature bucks being shot.

I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy. I do however question the biological wisdom of APR's. It just stands to reason that if hunters continuously high grade every year class deer, the genetics will weaken over time. I accept that several factors play into the downward trend in trophy registrations, I just think that APR's are a contributing factor.

[Getanet]

Hunter numbers declining isn't because of hunting laws.

Never said they were. But it stands to reason that if there are less hunters there are going to be less deer shot, and less record deer shot.

[PostFrontal]

I hunt zone 343.

As was stated before, through APR the DNR is trying to get a better age structure of the herd. Young buck harvest was expected to decrease (which it did), and doe harvest increase.

For anyone that tries to relate the APR restrictions for the reason that doe harvest didn't increase to the percentage the DNR was forecasting has no idea what they are talking about.

We hunt as hardcore as anyone out there during bow season, slug, muzzleloader, and then bow again. During the gun season we sit on stand from dawn to dusk, sit through wind, rain, snow, and the freezing cold in our climber stands. We start shooting does the 2nd weekend of A season through the end of the season.

Anyone that actually hunts down there knows that there was a huge rain storm Thursday and Friday that turned out to be our first blizzard of the year on Saturday and Sunday during A seaons. We didn't even hunt the 2nd weekend it was so bad. This continued to happen throughout the rest of the season including the last weekend of muzzleloader there was another blizzard down there so we didn't hunt again. As the DNR stated the last weekend of muzzleloader is one of the biggest for doe harvest and it got wiped out because of the storm.

I know this was the main reason that doe harvest numbers were down, not because someone couldn't tell if it was a buck or a doe so didn't shoot.

[PEATMOSS]

One thing that is likely adding to less record book bucks being shot is the fact that across the country hunting numbers are dropping. These statistics are taken from a Dec 9, 2010 USA Today article:

*The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates 33 states saw declines in hunting license sales the last two decades.

*Massachusetts has seen a 50% falloff in hunting license sales during that time.

*Michigan has seen a 31% drop in license sales the past 20 years

*Pennsylvania license sales have dipped 20% the past two decades

*Wisconsin 2.5% the past 20 years. But firearms license sales dropped 9% between 2000 and 2009.

Your stats show hunter numbers declining over the last 20 years, however trophy registration ROSE significantly for most of that time period. The drop in B&C and P&Y has just happened since 2006. Leads me to believe that hunter numbers are not much of a factor.

[96trigger]

Quote:

We hunt as hardcore as anyone out there during bow season, slug, muzzleloader, and then bow again. During the gun season we sit on stand from dawn to dusk, sit through wind, rain, snow, and the freezing cold in our climber stands. We start shooting does the 2nd weekend of A season through the end of the season.

Anyone that actually hunts down there knows that there was a huge rain storm Thursday and Friday that turned out to be our first blizzard of the year on Saturday and Sunday during A seaons. We didn't even hunt the 2nd weekend it was so bad. This continued to happen throughout the rest of the season including the last weekend of muzzleloader there was another blizzard down there so we didn't hunt again. As the DNR stated the last weekend of muzzleloader is one of the biggest for doe harvest and it got wiped out because of the storm.

I agree, weather wise, it was the worst year in a long time for the deer harvest. Not even so much the change in weather as it was the wind. First weekend HOT and windy, next weekend, cold wet and windy, muzzle loader season, frigid, snowy, and windy. It was a tough season. Many in my party hardly saw a deer. They were pretty hunkered down. Now there are dozens of them in the fields.

[heat checker]

I don't think there is any kind of conspiracy. I do however question the biological wisdom of APR's. It just stands to reason that if hunters continuously high grade every year class deer, the genetics will weaken over time. I accept that several factors play into the downward trend in trophy registrations, I just think that APR's are a contributing factor.

[nonteepical]

There genes are also through their mother.

[PEATMOSS]

Are you talking about ability to grow large antlers, or ability to withstand stress, tough winters, and disease? One wouldn't have anything to do with the other, would it?

As far as his genes are concerned, I'd guess a 2.5 yr old buck has bred AT LEAST 2 does before he gets shot. That means he is gone, but his genes are carried on through the 2 bucks he sired. By the time they are 2.5, "Grandpas" genes are now carried by 4 bucks. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I am only talking about the beloved antlers.

You are not "wrong", but have you considered that after next season, ALL of the 2 1/2 yr olds that were less than 7-pointers will remain in the gene pool wheras a significant portion of the ones with the better racks will not. Next year most of these 3 1/2 yr olds will be legal, but the ones that still haven't produced a decent rack will get another year to breed the following year. The very rare freakishly awful deer that never develope 4 points on a side will NEVER be culled from the gene pool and will continue to breed until they die.

This issue is not going to manifest itself in a few short years. Actually, it will probably take a decade or more to see any significant issues. Anyone that does not acknowledge that high-grading is at least a concern is kidding themselves. This is basic biology boys and girls. ANYTIME YOU TAKE A POPULATION OF ANYTHING AND HARVEST ONLY THAT PORTION OF A POPULATION THAT EXHIBITS A PARTICULAR TRAIT, THAT TRAIT WILL DIMINISH OVER TIME.

[james_walleye]

Thousands of years of genetics gone in a decade eh? It's that easy huh? I'm not going to go into details. Let's just say there are much bigger threats to our deerherd than APRs creating gene grading. With all the factors involved, and how long it takes to genetically alter a population, especially when the concerned animals are virtually non existent in the herd, its way down on the list of reasons to look away from APRs.

[PEATMOSS]

Gone? No.Degraded, probably.

I don't have any idea how anyone thinks that in just this one case, the laws of biology won't apply.

[james_walleye]

Seeing as though genetics aren't evident until a buck is 3.5, I'm not real sure why anyone would bring it up......

[lichen fox]

I think I said this last year...be carefull what you wish for, or what you ask for!...Deer numbers in many area's of the country are increasing at levels that make it difficult for managers to control...part of it is that the number of "trophy hunters" is increasing and another part is that there aren't as many people who actually "need", or even want the meat...So, it is what it is...everybody has an opinion, but the bottom line is to maintain a "healthy", "huntable" deer herd no matter what state you are talking about...APR's will not increase today's average hunter's chances of harvesting a "trophy"...the only thing that will increase that chance is a hunter willing to spend the extra money on scouting, and hunting time to get what they are after....it's always been that way...the hunters that put in the most effort and most time have the best success on harvesting trophy's...that will never change! If everybody...every hunter got his name in the P&Y or B&C club book...it wouldn't be a big deal would it? Only the most committed,(and sometimes lucky), hunters deserve that recognintion....or, we can just let the population explode and deal with CWD & BTB...There are plenty of big bucks in most area's of MN...just because you don't get a crack at them in season doesn't mean they are not there, they get big because they have the smarts to know where the hunters "seldom" go.

[lakevet]

Can you show me where the antlerlees harvest went up after this last fall deer hunting season in the APR zone? I read in a paper the Lou was suprised to see the antlerless harvest went down.

I also read a similar article where Lou stated they were puzzled why antlerless harvest wasn't up as predicted and desired result of APR's. If the process is allowed, as it should, to unfold as originally planned, then if the primary goal of increasing moderately the antlerless harvest is unmet, the regs should be scrapped. The DNR is actually really being cautious on this as the plan is to run the nontraditional (DNR words, not mine) regs for 3 years, review, then run another three years and review again. Lots of time for input, and judging from the "discussions" so far that have now resulted in legislative action, all I can say is, this is what happens when you implement nontraditional regs that only 50% actually support and and very large minority do not.

As I mentioned before, this hopefully will create enough of a train wreck that people will be open to restoring the original gun season post peak rut with no APR's and allowing cross tagging. Bluffland whitetails wanted this. This is the gun season that Wisc and Iowa have had for years and what we used to have. If big buck Buffalo county can have cross tagging and no state mandated apr's, it can work in Houston county Minnesota. The Iowa DNR says they wanted to change the season dates, but the women fought it as it was a very strong family tradition of deer hunting thanksgiving week. The Iowa DNR was unable to get the season switched, and now openly state it was a blessing in disguise that contributed to the big buck phenomena that Iowa has become.

Gotta go, have a date with the wife!

lakevet

[lichen fox]

Buffalo county does not have one buck in the Mn record books...Houston County only has 5... one in 1975...two in 1978.. one in 2005 and one in 2007...those county's have never been preverbial big buck producers...check out the Mn Deer Hunters website for the county's with the most...and, the "years"...what were the regs and season's like then?

[james_walleye]

I would hope buffalo county doesn't have any bucks in the MM record book. If you want a big buck in MM you would be hardpressed to beat Houston right now. Houston, winona, and Fillmore are all hard to beat.

[heat checker]

Peatmoss- I re-read your post. Sorry, I read it too quick the first time and confused you with the MANY people that either don't know or mis-type YOUNG in the place of GENETICALLY INFERIOR. My apologies. You are right to be concerned. I guess the question it brings to mind is how high is the heritability of antler growth? I work with livestock, and just about every trait has a heritability %. If that percentage is very heritable for antler growth, you might have a legimate concern. Couple that with a old and hunter-wise 7pt, and I guess a certain bucks home range might go south rather quickly. Which brings another question to mind. How often do the older bucks that get beat down in battle get to breed? Are they too beat down from losing battles to care, or are they opportunists like the young pups? Guess I got more question than answers.

[helpme]

I also read a similar article where Lou stated they were puzzled why antlerless harvest wasn't up as predicted and desired result of APR's.

[Note from admin: Your post has been edited. Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

My rights are worth more than your antlers!

[PEATMOSS]

Seeing as though genetics aren't evident until a buck is 3.5, I'm not real sure why anyone would bring it up......

I have no idea what you mean by this, but let me try a different approach.

Let's say you and I each start a deer farm and we each get ten 2-1/2 year old bucks and 20 random does for breeding stock. All of my bucks are 7-10 pointers and all of your bucks are 6-pointers or less. Both farms are managed exactly the same way.

Would you agree that it is likely that my farm would produce more trophy animals over a ten year period? If not, you should probably go find your high school biology teacher and punch him in the face.