Zone 3 APR

[PEATMOSS]

i think people will fall in love with this and it will stay.

And spread . The I-94/Hwy 10 corridor is probably next.

The SHORT TERM bonanza that this will create almost assures that it will be implemented elsewhere.

[PostFrontal]

Pennsylvania DNR:

Biology: Genetic Impacts:

Concerns over genetic impacts of selective harvest are common. Would selecting bucks based on the number of antler points they carried be enough to alter future antler development? Current research is clearly mounting evidence to the contrary.

About 1 in 4 litters will have fawns with different fathers.

Research has shown yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler points and size. Percent of hunters harvesting a buck is similar to previous decades. Yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler development. Research indicates little relationship between a buck’s first set of antlers and those he carries at 4.5 years of age and older. So, using yearling antler points as a harvest criterion should not influence future antler development in the population as a yearling spike buck and a yearling 6-point can have similar sized antlers by age 4.5 years. A few mature males are not dominating breeding. In two different studies, yearling males successfully sired fawns in populations with high percentages of older males. In fact, most males, regardless of age, only sired one litter. Does are regularly being bred by multiple bucks. Initially studied in captive deer, multiple paternity has been documented in every free-ranging white-tailed deer study in which researchers have looked. Populations with different male age structures in different states have seen litters with two or more offspring having different fathers at rates of 20-24 percent. Finally, a buck’s mother contributes half of his genetic characteristics, but nobody can tell what a doe’s contribution to her son’s antlers will be. There is no way to visually evaluate the genetic antler potential of a doe. As a result, 50 percent of the genetic contribution to future antler development is randomly selected in Pennsylvania. Given the complexity of the white-tailed deer’s breeding ecology and high genetic variation, large-scale alteration to Pennsylvania’s deer herd genetics is unlikely.

Hunting: Hunter Success Rates:

Increasing the standard for the harvest of a legal buck with APRs could have reduced the number of hunters that were successful. Tracking hunter success rates over the last 3 decades has shown little change in the percentage of successful hunters. Today, licensed Pennsylvania hunters are as successful harvesting a buck under APRs as their predecessors were 20 years ago under the old antler restriction.

Antler Restriction Report Card

1. Increase buck survival PASS

2. Change breeding timing NO CHANGE

3. Avoid negative genetic impacts PASS

4. Maintain hunter success rates PASS

5. Increase number of adult bucks PASS

6. Increase age structure of buck harvest PASS

7. Maintain hunter support PASS

Hunters continue to support antler restrictions by a large margin. Percentages do not add up to 100% because those who neither support nor oppose are not included.

Hunting: Age structure of Antlered Harvest:

Age structure of the antlered harvest before APRs was about 80 percent yearling bucks and 20 percent adult bucks. With the increase in survival of yearling bucks under APRs, the age structure of the antlered harvest changed to about 55 percent yearling bucks and 45 percent adult bucks. This increase in adult buck harvest has occurred during a time when overall deer populations have declined.

The increased harvest of adult bucks does not necessarily mean more “record book” bucks. Although age structure and number of adult bucks in the harvest has increased, about 75 percent of them are only 2.5 years-of-age. In other words, most of Pennsylvania’s bucks are still being harvested prior to growing their largest antlers.

Hunting: Hunter Support:

Prior to changing to APRs, surveys showed a majority of hunters favored them. Many hunter surveys have been conducted since APRs started in 2002. Would hunter support wane after APRs became reality? Not hardly! In fact, hunter support of APRs has remained steady since their implementation.

Conclusion:

After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success to which they are accustomed.

[RuttenBuck]

The one flaw I do see with APR's is the lack of a common sense rule. We could argue all day about the genetic affects of protecting what is considered by some as inferior genetics all based on number of points, but that has been beaten to death. So maybe an introduction of a common sense rule would ease the worry of the genetic point arguement. What if we allow shooting what can be perceived as an adult deer with less than 4 points on a side? They would need to have the deer verified and registered by an officer to have legal possession. I think it is absurd that a 200 lb 6 pointer can not be legally harvested. I do however, think they are very few and far between, at least in areas I hunt. I do truely understand the risk of adding rules that can be interpretted differently, as some people will try and take advantage of the system, but these people exist in all facets of life. However, the rule of allowing this perceived inferior genetic deer to be harvested may reduce the threat of "high-grading". And yes, most likely it does have inferior genetics but that is not cut and dry.

[DHost21]

When talking about high grading and stuff you are assuming everyone is gonna shoot the first 4pt side deer they see. There are still plenty of people out there that understand letting a basket buck is what they want to do because they are managing for really big deer so i think high grading is a flawed arguement completely. Yes some people that just want a buck will take the first 8 pt they see and thats gonna happen but I dont think that number will go up too much from right now. For high grading to happen you would have to shoot all the deer with good genes and that is impossible in free ranging deer. The APRs force people to pass on young bucks and that will help the age structure and sure some basket 8s will be taken but no way they will take all of them out and there are still enough people that will pass on basket 8s where it wont effect the population like you say it will with high grading.

I hunt all public land and I still pass on all little bucks due to the chance it makes it through to next year and I get a crack at him then and thats what APRs will do. They will make people pass on most young bucks and yes the people that dont usually pass on young bucks will still take that basket 8 that walks by as soon as it does but they are the same people taking them as of now anyways so I dont see there being any chance high grading could happen and letting the little bucks walk to increase age structure of the herd it just seems like a no brainer and i havent heard 1 arguement that proves its a bad thing. All the arguements against it are opinion arguements and really dont have much biological backing to them at all its just people dont want to be told what to do which is just sad in my opinion

[B. Amish]

All the arguements against it are opinion arguements and really dont have much biological backing to them at all its just people dont want to be told what to do which is just sad in my opinion

the same can be said about the aguements for apr's

[MOSSY]

Why not make it only legal to shoot a buck if it bigger than any you have previously taken then all the horn porn guys will be happy

[PEATMOSS]

Why not make it only legal to shoot a buck if it bigger than any you have previously taken then all the horn porn guys will be happy

BALONEY!!! Most want to kill a "shooter" every year!

Scroll thru some of the other threads where some of these people post pics of their trophy walls.

[RuttenBuck]

If you think about it, supposedly we have been "high-grading" for decades. A spike and yearling 8 pointer come chasing by after a doe in a buck's only zone? Which one gets shot 99% of the time assuming they both present the same clean kill opportunity? QDM hunters and trophy hunters are guilty as well. I know many

people have passed on "good" bucks to get a crack at the "great" buck they have on camera. I understand there may be some age differences in play in some of these scenarios but you get the point. If altering genetics was so prevalent as some are suggesting, you would think by now we'd have seen some affects. With the state archery record getting broken twice in the last couple years, I would have to say our genetics are just fine. And to quote our traditional hunter friends, just look at Outdoor news and all the big bucks that get shot, I don't see a

genetic problem brewing. If you really are worried about genetics, you better think twice before pulling the trigger on that boone and crockett because his days of spreading his gene's are over and you are leaving allegedly inferior deer to breed.

Let's stop focusing on genetics and on things we can control like age and nutrition.

[Getanet]

If you think about it, supposedly we have been "high-grading" for decades. A spike and yearling 8 pointer come chasing by after a doe in a buck's only zone? Which one gets shot 99% of the time assuming they both present the same clean kill opportunity? QDM hunters and trophy hunters are guilty as well. I know many

people have passed on "good" bucks to get a crack at the "great" buck they have on camera. I understand there may be some age differences in play in some of these scenarios but you get the point. If altering genetics was so prevalent as some are suggesting, you would think by now we'd have seen some affects. With the state archery record getting broken twice in the last couple years, I would have to say our genetics are just fine. And to quote our traditional hunter friends, just look at Outdoor news and all the big bucks that get shot, I don't see a

genetic problem brewing. If you really are worried about genetics, you better think twice before pulling the trigger on that boone and crockett because his days of spreading his gene's are over and you are leaving allegedly inferior deer to breed.

Let's stop focusing on genetics and on things we can control like age and nutrition.

It's a Friday afternoon so I might as well stir the pot, but considering state records are apparently being broken with some regularity and the ODN has plenty of pictures of big bucks, wouldn't this point to the fact there must be a decent balance of ages in the current population?

[PEATMOSS]

I could mention that under current practices , we are harvesting across genetic spectrum. I could also reference an interesting study on bighorn sheep that has shown some of the detrimental effects of trophy hunting.

I doubt either would matter to you though.

[bigbucks]

I find most of the 25 pages of this post to be nothing more than a p-ing contest.

I agree with the poster who said just because you are against the additional regulation of APR's, doesn't mean you don't follow some type of quality management. For the majority of hunters that is an experience progression, what's wrong with that? Many, many guys, shoot a few small bucks & if they hunt a lot with multiple weapons, decide that's not that fun anymore, or at least not fun enough to fill your buck tag & have to quit. Some don't feel that way, so what, over time education is still changing the bigger chunk of the population. I understand the frustration of most on here, but find the petty arguments kind of sickening.

I had to get a kick out of the people who said they were out of the discussion in 3 or 4 different posts...

Sorry if I'm offending some of you, but after 25 pages of this stuff it was pretty tough not to say something.

[RuttenBuck]

I'll admit they are bad examples. No, I don't think 2 record bucks are indicators of the overall age and genetic structures of our state wide herd. I couldn't resist with the Outdoor News comment. I'll point to the harvest statistics to disprove the fact we have a balanaced age structure in our current population. I just wanted to point out we have been targeting superior genetics since probably hunting began and I haven't heard of any complaints about genetic alteration until APR's showed up.

[RuttenBuck]

PeatMoss -

Like I've said before, both sides could point at articles and research that contradict each other. And the only conclusion I get from all of them is there are too many variables and unknowns to control in free ranging deer to accurately judge affects of harvesting what is presumed to be greater or lesser genetics based purely on number of points. If you get a different conclusion, great, let's agree to disagree.

[Rippinlip]

I find most of the 25 pages of this post to be nothing more than a p-ing contest.

I agree with the poster who said just because you are against the additional regulation of APR's, doesn't mean you don't follow some type of quality management. For the majority of hunters that is an experience progression, what's wrong with that? Many, many guys, shoot a few small bucks & if they hunt a lot with multiple weapons, decide that's not that fun anymore, or at least not fun enough to fill your buck tag & have to quit. Some don't feel that way, so what, over time education is still changing the bigger chunk of the population. I understand the frustration of most on here, but find the petty arguments kind of sickening.

I had to get a kick out of the people who said they were out of the discussion in 3 or 4 different posts...

Sorry if I'm offending some of you, but after 25 pages of this stuff it was pretty tough not to say something.

+10000000000