ATA Show....

[Meat-Run]

Is anybody going to the ATA show this week in Indianapolis?

mr

[Scoot]

I wish... I'd like to get my hands on a Bowtech Invasion and see what all the hype and hoopla is about.

[Archerysniper]

I wish... I'd like to get my hands on a Bowtech Invasion and see what all the hype and hoopla is about.

I know cant wait myself went to there site today and it's locked down with nothing but a count down timer till the release at the ata show.

Did some digging online not much out thier but from the looks of it through a cover sheet it going to be a mix of the gardian split limb and riser the destroyer cam with flex roller and a little longer axel to axle. Cant wait might have to sell a couple other of my bowtechs. Going to get the blacked out model if it shoot like it looks.

[sticknstring]

No ATA for me this year. You attending M-R?

[sticknstring]

Here's the Invasion for all you Bowtech fans.

7" BH

ATA 31 1/32"

IBO 343

DL 26-30"

[Wanderer]

That's almost too purdy to hunt with!

Matt, I like the new avatar. Guess I know how you did last weekend!

[sticknstring]

Might make a good bowfishing bow.

We did alright. Sounds like Red was the place to be.

[Scoot]

I'm totally bummed to see it's a 31" ATA. I had hoped to shoot this bow next year, but I refuse to shoot a bow that short. I'm not sure what I'm going to do now, but I don't want to shoot a repeat bow from last year (Destroyer 340 or 350), don't want the shoot the Specialist (target bow without parallel limbs), and won't shoot the Invasion given that it's too dang short. I've got a great deal on Bowtech lined up, but I may have to pass on it or try fanagle a different deal with a different company.

[DonBo]

I'm totally bummed to see it's a 31" ATA. I had hoped to shoot this bow next year, but I refuse to shoot a bow that short. I'm not sure what I'm going to do now, but I don't want to shoot a repeat bow from last year (Destroyer 340 or 350), don't want the shoot the Specialist (target bow without parallel limbs), and won't shoot the Invasion given that it's too dang short. I've got a great deal on Bowtech lined up, but I may have to pass on it or try fanagle a different deal with a different company.

I can see it now: "Scoot turns to Mathews for 2011" They offer two bows in their new lineup that are a wopping 32" ATA. Don't be afraid Scoot.

[Scoot]

Don't be afraid Scoot.

C'mon Don, I have to have some minimum standards!

Nah, Mathews just aren't for me. If they are good for you- then good for you! Some guys love 'em and they work great for them. I'm just not one of those guys. Like I said before, I prefer blondes, but that doesn't mean you have to.

[sticknstring]

Always been a brunette man myself...

Stick to your guns and find something with you specs you desire. I'm surprised of the 31" ata as well, I know a lot of people are pretty disappointed. Might be a good year to try out an Elite. That 36" Pure w/ 7" bh and 328 ibo is a beauty.

[Scoot]

That 36" Pure w/ 7" bh and 328 ibo is a beauty.

You read my mind!!! I just finished an e-mail greasing the skids for me to work a deal on an Elite. I'm not sure if it'll go over or not because I was lined up with Bowtech already-- not sure how committed they are to me sticking to that. We'll see. The Pure looks very nice though. Plus, Elites warrantee and customer service are consistently rated very high.

[Meat-Run]

Scoot,

come on man don't jump ship just because its less then 1 inch from your goal....

I shot the in Invasion a couple times and glad I didn't buy a destroyer 340, I love the feel and the weight its very nice. The draw is very smooth and the center pivot has been my desired bow from bowtech.

The new Diamond Deadeye was extremely smooth and very fast, I think this bow is a very under rated bow and will fall in the shadows of the flag ship Invasion. I might consider the Dead Eye if I can get a better deal then on the Invasion.

Over all I think the ATA show was awesome, you'll have to check out the brand new company Archery Extreme they have two carbon fiber quivers and sights that are unbelievable.

Meat-Run

[Scoot]

Meat Run, it was one inch from my absolute bare minimum, but more like four inches from what I'd like. I won't shoot a 31" bow- period.

I've heard good things about the Archery Extreme products- I'd like to check them out.

Sounds like the ATA was fun. I'd like to go sometime...

[bowhunternw]

You got to shoot the invasion. Could you compare it to the destroyers, as far as the draw is it similar to the 340? Past center pivots seemed like they drew hard compared to others. I really dig the looks of this bow. Sooting a destroyer now, most likely will keep it but will be fun to go and shoot. The deadeye looks pretty neat also, wish they would have made at least 6 1/2 brace, but I am shooting 6 now. Why do some of you guys want a long bow, Scoot you could get the specialist.

[Scoot]

Why do some of you guys want a long bow, Scoot you could get the specialist.

Stepping up on soapbox... This whole short ATA bow thing is extremely short sighted, IMO. Longer bows are more steady and consistent. Most archers would shoot tighter groups with a bow that's a few inches longer than the bow they currently shoot. Think about this-- compare a pistol to a rifle, in terms of accuracy. The rifle is much more accurate, particularly out at longer distances. This is largely do to the length of the weapon and the lack of length in the pistol. The analogy doesn't work perfectly for a couple reasons, but gives you a decent way to think about why longer bows are more accurate than shorter ones.

Also, do you really gain much in the tree stand or the bush with a bow that's 30" instead of 34"? No. The marketing info suggests a shorter bow is like carrying nothing through the bush while carrying a longer bow is like lugging around an anvil. The few inch difference will make a negligable difference in maneuvarability, but a much bigger difference in accuracy. Plus, if you have to compromise, I can't imagine why anyone would give up accuracy.

I've looked carefully at the Specialist. However, the Specialist is a target bow and has the classic characteristics of a target bow. It's limbs are not close to parralel and I'm sure it'll have considerable "feedback", like many target guys want. You could certainly hunt with it, but I have no interest in it. If I was looking for a bow to shoot in a league with, I'd be looking closely at it. However, I'm looking at a hunting bow. None of the shops in Fargo will have a Specialist on their shelves- order in only. With it not being a classic hunting bow and not being able to shoot it, I'm not interested in it. Even with it being a longer ATA bow, I'm pretty sure given it's design that it's not the right bow for me.

[DonBo]

Come on Scoot, there's lots of us out here that shoot "short" bows. Are they as accurate as longer bows? MAYBE some of them are not. Are ANY of them less accurate enough that most of us (outside of strictly target shooters) would ever notice a differance? Probably not.

If they're not for you, that's fine, but don't throw that blanket over all short bows, or short bow shooters. Remember, just cause you prefer blondes doesn't mean I have too.

I happen to love my Mathews DXT. It's short. It's also the smoothest bow I found after shooting literally dozens of bows at several different shops in the metro area. I hunt a lot from ground blinds and find the short bow to be a real assett for me. It also happens to be the bow that shot the highest score at our first night of leagues last week. (not that I'm braggin' you understand)

More than anything, I just love buttin' heads with ya. All I'm sayin' is, there realy is no right and wrong in this sport, as long as it works for you.

[Scoot]

Come on Scoot, there's lots of us out here that shoot "short" bows. Are they as accurate as longer bows?

[DonBo]

As much as I love to argue with you, and you know I do , I won't disagree that many inexperienced archers would be better off starting out with a longer ATA bow.

I just think that since most of us will never shoot a deer beyond 30 yards, that the difference between a 3" group and 2 3/4" group at that distance will be negligible.

[Scoot]

Well... I'm fiesty today and ready for an argument! Unfortunately, it looks like we generally agree in the end. How disappointing...

One little point I'd make where we still don't totally agree is that I don't think the differences will be as small as you suggest. Still, they won't be night and day different either, so sadly, looks like we agree again. Dang!

[DonBo]

Oh, come on. We were just starting to have a little fun.

[sticknstring]

I'll throw on a few logs - wouldn't want the fire to go out ... I don't know if I buy it entirely. A 10" ata difference... sure, but the difference between a 35" and a 31" from a BOWHUNTING perspective is pretty minimal. I haven't shot any over 36" in awhile but quite a few from 28.5" - 35" and they've all shot remarkably well. I used to think I'd never shoot anything shorter than 34", then I went to a 33", and now have a 32" on order. Someday, I might shoot a 30"! And I'd be willing to bet, it'll be as accurate as any I've shot. Anyone else willing to chime in here?

[Scoot]

... it'll be as accurate as any I've shot. Anyone else willing to chime in here?

OK, if you want to play, I'll play...

Yes, I bet you're right- it'll be as accurate as any you've shot. However, if you took that exact same bow and made it several inches longer, it'd be MORE accurate. Bows aren't getting shorter because it makes them more accurate (just the opposite, which is my point), bows are getting shorter because of 1) marketing, and 2) they can get more speed out of these rigs. As I said before, everything else being equal, longer bows are more accurate is still true. If you take several years worth of technology advances and compare across different developmental stages of equipment, you're talking apples to oranges.

Of course both you and Don are right-- are we talking about huge differences in accuracy between a 31" and a 35" bow? No, not huge. However, I believe they're meaningful differences. ...and most importantly, if you're going to compromise on anything regarding your archery set up, why would you compromise on its accuracy?

So what's the big advantage of the short bow? Easier to move around in the stand, can get a few more fps out of them, easier in a ground blind. I don't see any of them being even remotely close to as important as the accuracy of the bow.

Now, all of this being said, I don't care one bit what bow you guys shoot! I hope you pick a bow you'll shoot well and that you like. ...and, I hope you shoot a monster with it. As I said before, I'm confident in the info I've written here and I think it's great advice to the novice and the experienced bowhunter.

[DonBo]

Ah, jeez stick. Now look what you've started, again.

[Scoot]

Ah, jeez stick. Now look what you've started, again.

I'm confused... first you chastise me for my soap box rant. Second, you and I agree. Third, you complain because we were "just gettin' started" and we ended the discussion. Now you're giving stick a bad time for getting me going again? Don, you're going to have to decide about this... do you want this banter to end or continue?

[DonBo]

Okay, okay. Here's my final thoughts on the subject. If you took two bows, identical in every way except one is longer than the other and shot them from a machine, I believe the groups would be the same.

Now, take those two bows and hand them to your relatively inexperienced weekend type archer and he will PROBABLY shoot better with the longer bow. I'll give Scoot this one.

Put those same bows in the hands of experienced archers, shooting hunting-type conditions, and I highly doubt the group difference (if any) will be noticable. This is the point I believe stick was trying to get across.

I have no scientific data to back any of this up. (I doubt Scoot does either) It's just an educated guess on my part from being around archers for way more years than I care to think about.

Isn't this fun?

[Meat-Run]

Geez, look what I started, it looks like a couple brothers wrestling on the kitchen floor...

Scoot, I agree with your statement and stick to your goal(longer axle) becuase you're the one that has to live with it and if you keep hunting out west I would be interested in a longer a2a too. Your analygy with the rifle vs. hand gun is a good one to put some of this into perspective but if your in the market for a mid to short range bow I think a person is splitting hairs on a 32" vs. 31 1/32" a2a.

I'll have my order in for the new Invasion hopefully by end of January (crappieattitude if you send my wife this link you'll never see another "freebie" again )

mr

[Scoot]

...but if your in the market for a mid to short range bow I think a person is splitting hairs on a 32" vs. 31 1/32" a2a.

I totally agree. I bet you'll like the Invasion. I like everything about it, except it's overall length. But, as you can obviously tell, the lack of length is a deal breaker for me.

My favorite bow, and best shooter, of all time was an '07 Commander. I shot a 425 grain arrow at 275 with it- plenty of speed for me. Importantly, it had awesome characteristics in the two departments I'm most concerned about: accuracy and noise. It was the quietest bow I've ever heard and I drove tacks with it. I still miss that bow...

[Scoot]

Isn't this fun?

No really, but that's ok. It was for a while...

I agree with the basic idea of everything you said. However, I really believe you're giving WAY too much credit to experienced bowhunters and the form they have. At the shooting range, under perfect conditions, I'm sure you're right- a guy with really good form will do just fine with either bow (just like a robot with perfect, repeatable from would). However, even those of us who have shot a lot for a long time often have less than desirable form when in the field. What happens to most guys' form, experienced or not, when they: only have a couple seconds to shoot, are shooting at a sharp angle up/down, are shooting at an animal that's un unlevel ground (left/right), shooting in a big wind, shooting with a quiver on vs. off, shooting from a tree stand, shooting with more clothes on than they are used to, shooting when leaning around a tree, are shooting at the biggest buck/bull/boar they've ever seen, and on and on and on??? Even Chuck Adams has less than ideal form on many, many shots in the field. Longer bows help to make up for imperfections in form- regardless of whether you've shot for five weeks or five decades.

One question that is relevant-- how long are the bows of the best target shooters in the world? The answer to that question will lead you one obvious direction regarding length of the more accurate rig. Also, look at what most top shooting coachings suggest (not talking about company sponsored people here)- same answer. Why is it that they suggest longer bows? Because they think they are cooler? Because they are more "comfortable" with them? Because the current market has shoved them down their throats? Nope. Because they're more accurate and forgiving.

OK, I'm officially tired of this conversation. If you want to shoot a shorter bow, shoot a shorter bow. I'll shoot a longer bow. Everyone will be happy. Have a fine day!

[propster]

I don't believe Scoot is right, at least based on anything scientific, and when talking about shooting a release, which when we're talking bows this short is what we should be discussing. Which is not to say he is wrong, but it is more his opinion than anything. The analogy between the longer axle length on a bow has absolutely nothing to do with the longer barrel on a rifle vs a pistol. Not even apples and oranges, more like apples and corn. If he was right, a crossbow wouldn't be as accurate as a compound. And now I'll contradict myself and say that at farther yardages I'll put my money on a top compound shooter over a crossbow every time, but not because of the overall length of the bow.