No more party hunting in Zone 3, SE MN

[96trigger]

PSE, I too wonder what effect the youth hunt will have on bowhunting. I am thinking it might be minimal. Its only for youth 15 and under. Also, there are lots of other things that go on that weekend with waterfowl hunting, etc... I don't think we will see that big of an impact. However, it will be nice to hear what the regs will be, you know, are we going to have to wear blaze orange when bow hunting etc...

I know that MEA traditionally is when I start spending every moment I can in the woods. Often, over MEA, there is a lull in deer activity before the rut starts. This might get deer moving as it can seem really quiet during that week.

[psepuncher]

As far as will you be able to bow hunt in peace. Im not sure on that one yet no one will say one way or the other yet. Regs should be coming out soon I hope. I would venture to say its going to be similar to the ealry antlerless season we have had the past few years. But with 65 acres youll be fine, heck they may push deer to you. I cant gun hunt the property in east bethel and noone that I know of around it either so im good.

{I fixed it...65 acres}

well I remember my son's first youth hunt.

I just hope any deer that's pushed my way are still in one piece

But seriously, we did step on a few toes. We were actually cornerd by a group of hunters as we came into their spot they had set up to hunt. That, I feel was my fault for not going out and scouting before hand. With new kids you'll get tons of new dad's out there.

With this new hunt set in place I hope through media the DNR will make this known. The major factor of that being announced will gain the publics favor and get everyone on the same page.

[psepuncher]

PSE, I too wonder what effect the youth hunt will have on bowhunting.

how about while on a youth only hunt, they

start carrying a crossbow during bow season.

did I say that outloud?

[PEATMOSS]

I never got polled either. Its called a sample and its good within a couple percentage points. You don't have to poll the entire population.

Antler hunters? Feel free to rephrase that into "the zone 3 majority" beccause that is who you are talking about.

I will have to give your side great credit for perpetuating this myth. However, the simple truth of the matter is that IF there was any kind of a committed majority that believed in apr's, then you antler hunters would simply have achieved your goals by now thru voluntary compliance.

[PEATMOSS]

Trigger,

Your side keeps quoting the B&C stats to create this hysteria that we need to criminalize shooting forkies and 6-pointers. IF your side REALLY feels that we need to regain our ranking in the record books, perhaps it's time to examine your sides hunting practices.

It appears as though your party shot four nice "quality" bucks last fall including that 9-pointer you shot(very nice deer by the way). But, just like the forkhorn my brother shot last year, they're all dead and none of these will make the record book.

I'm really curious about your mindset with regards to killing this 9-pointer. Was it your personal best? If not, why did you shoot it? This whole B&C argument you guys keep bringing up seems like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation to me. You use these stats to keep the public land peasants and weekend warriors from shooting forkies and sixers and at the same time, your side is free from any responsibility and can pile up antlered bucks like cordwood so long as they meet your "quality" standard.

IF you're really concerned about our B&C standing, maybe you should be preaching a "shoot your best,leave the rest" ethic amongst yourselves and if you're not willing to do this then perhaps your don't really have the moral authority to use these stats to push your real agenda.

[ejf76]

PEATMOSS,

I think the reason the B&C stats are being used is because there are no other or very little statistics available regarding an age distribution of harvested bucks. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of those arguing for the APR's are not expecting to shoot B&C's every year now nor would they expect anyone else to practice that. Will the introduction of APR's lead to more B&C bucks in the woods? Possibly, but not necessarily. We tend to forget that a B&C rack is not a guarantee if a buck is allowed to grow old. The point to using those statistics is that they are reflective of the trend of mature buck harvest and they are the only statistics available to us to look at, whereas the overall deer, buck-to-doe , and adult-fawn harvest numbers are readily available through the DNR.

I think what you find in the Zone 3 area is a pretty strong theme amongst hunters that they would like a way to protect the 1.5 year old bucks. We look at the habitat and see the potential, but a general lack of production. Now there are areas that do extremely well, but as a whole, there is ample room for improvement.

How to protect them? Thats where the you continue to see more disagreement even amongst those that want some type of protection for the young bucks. Personally, i like the elimination of party hunting for bucks, but am not sure how I feel about the APR's. IMO, moving the firearms season out of the middle of the rut would do a better job of relieving the pressure on those young bucks and would better protect the more advanced 1.5 year olds that are legal within the APR. This would allow your brother to shoot that forkhorn if he chooses, but not at a time when these bucks are going through their first time in the peak of the rut.

But the DNR has chosen the APR as a way to keep the seasons in tact and the traditions hunters have that go with them. Is it perfect? No, but I am glad the DNR is trying something based on input form the area hunters.

[PEATMOSS]

Those B&C stats show that Mn. produced about one Booner a year up to 1979, about ten per year between '80 and 2001 and an abysmal 19.3 per year during this past decade.

This is the disturbing trend that requires the crimanilazation of shooting forkies and 6-pointers?

Before the "we're not #1 anymore" wimpering starts again with someone bringing up Kansas or Illinois, please remember that these states do NOT have apr's. A monumental shift in land usage brought about by the farm crisis of the 80's, coupled with the vast expansion of programs like CRP have blessed these states with exponential growth in their deer herds. As the herd reaches the carrying capacity their numbers will also level out just as Iowa's seem to be doing.

[96trigger]

In regards to my deer, it met my criteria. Was it as big as I had thought, NO. He had a tall rack and was out to the tips of his nose, but he ended up being way more narrow than what I had intentionally thought.

I am not one upping myself, I have shot one really, really nice buck over my 20 years of deer hunting. I probably will never best that one. My "side" for lack of better terms, are not talking about having deer of a lifetime all over the place. Was my deer immature, no, by all means, he was mature, should I have given him one more year? Yes, I'll be the first to admit that. I was still happy with the deer, but it wasn't what I thought it was. Under the new restrictions, he still would have been a very legal deer, as were all the bucks that were shot in my group. However, had 3 of the four been given another year, mine included, they would have been that much better this year.

Again, I think people arguing that APR will not help bucks mature have blinders on. I think if you fundamentally believe that the DNR should not tell anyone what to shoot, than there is no point in arguing any longer, you will keep your heels dug in as I will mine. We will just have to disagree. Once again, I think it is an experiment that is worth trying. I don't need B&C books to tell me that a large number of small, yearling bucks get shot every year. I think the stats are way too misleading anyway. I am sure that many, many people that shoot record book deer, don't spend the money to have them officially scored, and also entered into the book. I did with my first big buck, but I don't know if I will do it with another. That still doesn't negate the fact that many of us, down here would like to see more mature bucks. The ONLY way to get more mature bucks is to let them grow. Another year in the woods, another year of maturity, another year of honing in their instincts make a big difference. It is only my opinion, but during the rut, those small deer are the easiest to target, and therefore, often the first shot.

[PEATMOSS]

Trigger, it's pretty obvious that you and your party are skilled and dedicated hunters.I'm guessing you spend a significant time afield and have access to some pretty decent hunting land. Those were 4 dandy bucks you guys shot and you should be proud.

What strikes me is how you can have a hunt like this and at the same time complain that there are so few big bucks around that we need to crimanalize folks that don't hold antler hunting to the degree of esteem that you do.

I can certainly understand your enthusiasm for big buck hunting and I would strongly support you if you were advocating that folks voluntarily follow your lead. I guess it just irks me that guys like you somehow feel entitled to force your values on others when there is no biological imperative to do so.

[96trigger]

I have never complained that there are few nice bucks around. They are out there, I see at least one every year. Almost all the land down here is signicant hunting land. The biggest buck shot last year by my groupwas on public land. However, I new where he was from bow hunting, I hunted different land opening morning when I shot my buck, my cousin, who hadn't shot a deer yet, asked if I'd take him out there.

You are also taking special offense by thinking that you are being criminalized for hunting for meat. I shoot does every year. I love does, they taste great. We are just advocating that if you really want to shoot deer, than shoot a doe, no need to shoot that small buck when there are does abound.

As for entitlement, I don't feel entitled. I feel like it is good for the area, good for the population, and good for management. For every biological piece of information that I can find that would support a deer herd with more mature bucks, someone will find a piece of information that negates or, they will say that it was written with a hidden agenda, so I don't feel like I need to go back and do research again on the issue. I have read books, articles, and scholarly essays on herd management and animal population, but like all science, there is no LAW of nature for populatioin, it is all theory backed by data. The only law of nature is that as soon as something is born, it starts getting closer to death.

[PEATMOSS]

The difference between you and I Trigger is in our respect for personal liberty.

I think that folks should eat right and get at least an hour of good physical activity every day. If everyone did this all of our health care costs would be lower and we would benifit as a society. I do this myself and encourage others to do so. I'm pretty sure that those that disagree with me would see the light if they gave it 6 months. Does this mean that I would outlaw junk food and force people under threat of the law to get up and go exercise each day? Of course not. I believe people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit, even when I disagree with them.

You obviously have a work and family situation that allows you to spend copious amounts of time deer hunting. I do not. My party of 4 hunt the opening weekend of firearms season. My boys have school and football practice and our family operates a small part time business in the fall. I may get out for an hour or 2 in the evening a couple of times after opening weekend.

We don't intentionally try to crop off yearling bucks. We simply shoot the first adult deer which present themselves. Sometimes it's a doe, sometimes a buck.We do not always fill our tags. We simply do not have the luxury of passing on deer. There are many,many folks like us in this state. The fact that your side wants to crimanalize us for that is deeply upsetting and seems very selfish to me.

[PurpleFloyd]

For better or for worse in the end the law will more than likely result in fewer local blue collar family type parties and more fly in with extra money to burn parties.

Then again in a few generations that may be the way things head anyway.

[MOSSY]

Peat

you reflect my feeling exactly.sometimes that forkie or six is the only deer we may see

Purple you are right on the money it won't be long and you won't be able to hunt unless you own your own land or pay big bucks to shoot your monster that apr guys want

It is a shame want my kids and grandkids some day will have to do just to hunt.

[james_walleye]

[

I will have to give your side great credit for perpetuating this myth. However, the simple truth of the matter is that IF there was any kind of a committed majority that believed in apr's, then you antler hunters would simply have achieved your goals by now thru voluntary compliance.

A myth?? Hahaha. I will not argue this one, the numbers are out there, its not top secret, and in zone 3 the majority of hunters want to see protection for young bucks. Thats straight from a DNR survey. Its obvious PEAT you've either never attempted to look at the poll numbers or maybe you havent a clue what im talking about. Whatever the case may be it doesnt change the FACT that these polls were taken and it doesnt change the results.

[james_walleye]

The difference between you and I Trigger is in our respect for personal liberty.

I think that folks should eat right and get at least an hour of good physical activity every day. If everyone did this all of our health care costs would be lower and we would benifit as a society. I do this myself and encourage others to do so. I'm pretty sure that those that disagree with me would see the light if they gave it 6 months. Does this mean that I would outlaw junk food and force people under threat of the law to get up and go exercise each day? Of course not. I believe people should be free to conduct themselves as they see fit, even when I disagree with them.

You obviously have a work and family situation that allows you to spend copious amounts of time deer hunting. I do not. My party of 4 hunt the opening weekend of firearms season. My boys have school and football practice and our family operates a small part time business in the fall. I may get out for an hour or 2 in the evening a couple of times after opening weekend.

We don't intentionally try to crop off yearling bucks. We simply shoot the first adult deer which present themselves. Sometimes it's a doe, sometimes a buck.We do not always fill our tags. We simply do not have the luxury of passing on deer. There are many,many folks like us in this state. The fact that your side wants to crimanalize us for that is deeply upsetting and seems very selfish to me.

PEAT no one is trying to force APR's into areas like yours where the deer situation is obviously different than what we have in zone 3. When i say the majority of people in zone 3 want change, its not a bogus statement. That is the mindset down here. I wish i had the exact numbers for the first 29 counties in MO that had APR's. I believe when installed that around 35% of hunters were for them. After 3 years the number was around 60-65%. In zone 3 we already have, in some polls, close to 60% of people wanting change. With that much support....why shouldnt the DNR install change?? Maybe its hard to comprehend in other parts of the state that so many people have this mindset, but that is what is happening in zone 3.

[james_walleye]

Peat

you reflect my feeling exactly.sometimes that forkie or six is the only deer we may see

Purple you are right on the money it won't be long and you won't be able to hunt unless you own your own land or pay big bucks to shoot your monster that apr guys want

It is a shame want my kids and grandkids some day will have to do just to hunt.

You want to know whats going on in zone 3 right now Mossy? That exact scenario. And you know why? The land owners restrict access because they know its the only way to make sure the yearlings don't get cropped off. The only way these guys can start to see the potential of the land is to cut off access and make some sanctuary. It doesnt matter which way this road turns, access isnt easy.

[11-87]

Yep, so with bigger racks, we'll get alot more pressure in a few years from all the other people who don't normally hunt our zone. we'll have less private land to hunt, get shot on public land, and all live happily ever after.. especially the landowners who will begin to lease out their land for hunting..

[james_walleye]

Sorry 11, the DNR has done their research and the research has shown this will not happen. You should have attended a DNR "townhall meeting", this as well as many other things was addressed. APR's are not a new concept and the DNR has studied what went down in other places these were installed and this scenario doesnt play out. The DNR isnt going about this blind.

[psepuncher]

this I grabbed from an outfit down there.

Now accepting bookings for 2010-2011

$4000 - 5 days, 6 nights (see Details for more info)

James it's been 30 minutes since you posted. Where are you at?

Did you go and call the DNR to confirm this isn't happening?

[james_walleye]

Not sure what the point of it is PSE. You can find that in any state in which whitetails are found.

[11-87]

James,

We all know anyone can manipulate any research to show exactly what they want it to show.

Maybe DNR shouldn't just pick on ZONE 3 and protect all bucks.. why should a guy up north get a shot at some game unrestricted, and down here with plenty of deer we are restricted? Maybe we should increase all antler sizes STATEWIDE, and NOT JUST HERE...

[psepuncher]

Not sure what the point of it is PSE. You can find that in any state in which whitetails are found.

I would like to see you back your statement up that "this won't happen."

From what I've seen this "is" exactly what you said "isn't". Land Locks will rise and leasing will be more dominant. allthewhile population of deer will stagnate. This "is" what happens in the real world of TDM.

And where's all the big bucks at? This was implemeted in 2005 in those state parks. Those bucks should be in the 7 yo range. wasn't the apr placed in 2005? If those arpr's were so great with huge success rates I wonder why those that hunt there aren't really bragging about already seeing more mature bucks, big small old or on the wall.

[james_walleye]

Go investigate the info from the states where APR's were already implemented and then get back to me. And when i talk about info im talking take a special notice of where hunter satisfaction with APR's were before they were implemented and then 3 years after. If all of a sudden all this land was being land locked and leased out im pretty sure that hunter satisfaction rates reguarding APR's wouldnt double like they did in Missouri.

I'll repeat myself. Access is already a problem in SE MN because landowners know the only way to let bucks see 2 1/2 years old is to not let people on their land to kill them. If you have APR's and there are more big bucks you will have access problems. If you don't have APR's, as we already see right now, access is a problem. Its going to be a problem either way.

Im out on this subject. I don't have to persuade anyone about anything. My thoughts on this subject are of the majority in zone 3. The DNR is going to try it out and its a no brainer that in zone 3 after the 3 years that hunter satisfaction with APR's will go up.

[james_walleye]

James,

We all know anyone can manipulate any research to show exactly what they want it to show.

Maybe DNR shouldn't just pick on ZONE 3 and protect all bucks.. why should a guy up north get a shot at some game unrestricted, and down here with plenty of deer we are restricted? Maybe we should increase all antler sizes STATEWIDE, and NOT JUST HERE...

So the DNR is manipulating info? When you see that APRs were introduced in 29 counties in Missouri and after 3 years (3 years where hunter satisfaction went way up) you didnt see a mass movement of hunters into those 29 counties im pretty sure there is no manipulation there. Pretty sure that is straight forward information. When hunter satisfaction after 3 years in these 29 counties doubled im pretty sure there is no manipulation there. Thats pretty much straight forward numbers.

[PEATMOSS]

I've always believed that actions speak louder than words. Or poll numbers.

IF there is a majority of folks that are truly committed to apr's then why would crimanalizing the shooting of yearlings be nescessary? I've never seen anyone forced to shoot a forkie.

If you don't think that there are folks that are trying to force this statewide, then you haven't been paying attention.

[james_walleye]

If it comes to an area near you PEAT it only means that it worked in SE MN. And by worked i mean hunter satisfaction after the next 3 years went up. Probably not a bad thing is it if hunter satisfaction goes up.....

[PEATMOSS]

Actually, I think it's the guys on your side that are never gonna be happy or satisfied.

The deer herd is at near record levels, seasons for archery and muzzies have been expanded and the equipment for these sports has come along way from recurves and smokepoles.You can kill a doe with one of these methods and still go tag a buck during firearms season. There are 19 times as many Booners taken in this state in an average year now than prior to 1979..........and yet, somehow things are just so tough that we we gotta keep the peasants from shooting deer that they are perfectly satisfied with 'cuz you guys wanna shoot more "quality" bucks.

Your side will never be satisfied and most certainly will never stop pushing for more and more.

[psepuncher]

Go investigate the info from the states where APR's were already implemented and then get back to me. And when i talk about info im talking take a special notice of where hunter satisfaction with APR's were before they were implemented and then 3 years after. If all of a sudden all this land was being land locked and leased out im pretty sure that hunter satisfaction rates reguarding APR's wouldnt double like they did in Missouri.

I'll repeat myself. Access is already a problem in SE MN because landowners know the only way to let bucks see 2 1/2 years old is to not let people on their land to kill them. If you have APR's and there are more big bucks you will have access problems. If you don't have APR's, as we already see right now, access is a problem. Its going to be a problem either way.

Im out on this subject. I don't have to persuade anyone about anything. My thoughts on this subject are of the majority in zone 3. The DNR is going to try it out and its a no brainer that in zone 3 after the 3 years that hunter satisfaction with APR's will go up.

The PGC is being sued for bad nmanagment, resulting in dangerously low population of deer.

Stephen Demarais, professor of Wildlife Management at Mississippi State University, concurs with Castle's opinion. After intensive monitoring of buck kill on the state's Sunflower WMA, his statistics show a decrease of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone and Crockett scores of 3 1/2-year-old bucks taken on the WMA since the 4-point rule was adopted. This is exactly the effect that some biologists predicted: Over time, the restrictive rule protects smaller-antlered yearlings and allows the harvest of larger-antlered yearlings.

Arkansas repoted the same thing, a decrease in antler size

And where's those bucks at? It's been awhile so those 7 yo mature deer should be piling up by now.

[96trigger]

Quote:

The difference between you and I Trigger is in our respect for personal liberty.

This is why we won't agree on this, ever. You don't hunt down here, we didn't push for this to go statewide. I don't have a clue what its like hunting up north, nor do I pretend to.

As for the leasing, that has been happening for years, might as well have the bucks too. Look on the other side of the fence. If I only have 10 acres to hunt, what good does it do me to manage it? None, if all the neighbors don't cooperate. Now we all will cooperate, I will have a better chance at seeing a mature buck in my little 10 acre corner because of these new regulations. I won't need to look for 600 acres to lock up in a lease.

[psepuncher]

This is why we won't agree on this, ever. You don't hunt down here, we didn't push for this to go statewide. I don't have a clue what its like hunting up north, nor do I pretend to.

As for the leasing, that has been happening for years, might as well have the bucks too. Look on the other side of the fence. If I only have 10 acres to hunt, what good does it do me to manage it? None, if all the neighbors don't cooperate. Now we all will cooperate, I will have a better chance at seeing a mature buck in my little 10 acre corner because of these new regulations. I won't need to look for 600 acres to lock up in a lease.

I think we can all agree you'll see a very short term improvement from APR's, and when that happens the rise in leases and locks will abound.

visa or master card?