Jump to content
  • GUESTS

    If You  want access  to member only forums on FM, You will need to Sign-in or  Sign-Up now .

    This box will disappear once you are signed in as a member.

Why is Punto in the Majors still?


RumRiverRat

Recommended Posts

Doesn't defense still win championships?

It does in basketball and to a lesser extent in football. Defense is important but hasn't got the twins very far in the playoffs the last few years though.

Your kidding, right?

defense is the most important aspect of baseball and it is just important to winning games in baseball than any other sport if not more so. Thats the first thing I tell my little league teams.

If defense isn't all that important then why do good starting pitchers get paid so much money to play every 5th game?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 210
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Big Dave2

    33

  • greebs

    27

  • zamboni

    15

  • PierBridge

    14

I figured out why Punto sucks... He's really George Michael.

PuntoSeperatedatBirth.jpg

OK, that's just funny, I don't care what side of the argument you're on!grin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll take Kubels average (.214) hr's (3) and rbi's (22) over Punto's average (.218) zero hr's with 10 rbi's anyday of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm being as serious as a heart attack. The D truly has not gotten the twins very far in the playoffs the last several years. Defense is very important for little leaguers but I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

The last time I checked I thought pitchers played on defense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm being as serious as a heart attack. The D truly has not gotten the twins very far in the playoffs the last several years. Defense is very important for little leaguers but I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

Good defense is what got the Twins TO the playoffs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm being as serious as a heart attack. The D truly has not gotten the twins very far in the playoffs the last several years. Defense is very important for little leaguers but I'll take strong pitching over defense any day when it comes to the majors.

Greebs,

I see you still don't think defense is important but you have not responded to my post that showed the defensive standings of the last 5 WS champs. They all were good defensive teams. What else would you like? Would you like me to go back further? I can find all kinds of stats to prove my point, in addition to probably getting 31 of 31 managers to agree defense is very important. Lets look at the Twins WS champion years? In 1987 the Twins were the #1 ranked defensive team. In 1990 they were #6. So I guess you can say defense has contributed to bringing the Twins championships.

Still don't believe? What else should I dig up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Greebs,

I see you still don't think defense is important but you have not responded to my post that showed the defensive standings of the last 5 WS champs. They all were good defensive teams. What else would you like? Would you like me to go back further? I can find all kinds of stats to prove my point, in addition to probably getting 31 of 31 managers to agree defense is very important. Lets look at the Twins WS champion years? In 1987 the Twins were the #1 ranked defensive team. In 1990 they were #6. So I guess you can say defense has contributed to bringing the Twins championships.

Still don't believe? What else should I dig up?"

you don't need to dig anything up. it sounds like we are in agreement here. I'm not sure where you are getting that I don't think defense is important? I'll definitely take a cy young pitcher over a golden glove pitcher but I don't think I've ever posted that I think defense is unimportant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Partial apology Greebs. I think I may have mistakenly attributed some previous comments to you that should not have been. I apologize for that. That said, my tone may have been incorrect but the point remains the same about defense and championships. It isn't important only in Little league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not our defense that has cost us in the playoffs. It's our offense turning into garbage come october that allows us to lose every year. frown

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Punto is the perfect utility player. He can pinch run and can play three positions on the infield. If he could hit even a little bit I'd say he's a starter, but you can't depend on him in the clutch (or with bases empty for that matter). I love the guy, but he should not be the starting third baseman on a contending team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

big dave - of course pitchers are on the field with the defense but do you seriously consider a pitcher as simply one of nine defensive players out there who's main role is to field bunts and to cover 1b on occasion? dude, we ain't talking t-ball here. if you think that when someone says that they prefer a strong pitching staff over team defense and you want to argue that pitching and defense are basically one in the same then you've got a bit to learn about the game.

when you have pitching tryouts for the little leaguers that you coach do you simply have them field grounders or do you maybe watch them throw a few pitches to help you pick who will pitch for you? when your pitchers warm up before their turn, do they field grounders or do they actually throw some practice pitches? does your league have restrictions on how often a kid can pitch in a certain number of days? are the restrictions based on how many pitches he's throw or is it based on how may grounders he's fielded? does the league have a restriction on how many times a kid can play 1b, 2b, etc.?

have you ever taken a look at pitcher stats? fielding percentage typically isn't what people look at and those pitchers with the big contracts win ball games and get the big contracts with their pitching not their fielding. you go ahead and take pitchers who have a good glove and I'll take the cy young candidates and we'll see who's team wins most of the games and then maybe you'll better understand what I meant when I said I'll take strong pitching over strong defense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

big dave - of course pitchers are on the field with the defense but do you seriously consider a pitcher as simply one of nine defensive players out there who's main role is to field bunts and to cover 1b on occasion? dude, we ain't talking t-ball here. if you think that when someone says that they prefer a strong pitching staff over team defense and you want to argue that pitching and defense are basically one in the same then you've got a bit to learn about the game.

when you have pitching tryouts for the little leaguers that you coach do you simply have them field grounders or do you maybe watch them throw a few pitches to help you pick who will pitch for you? when your pitchers warm up before their turn, do they field grounders or do they actually throw some practice pitches? does your league have restrictions on how often a kid can pitch in a certain number of days? are the restrictions based on how many pitches he's throw or is it based on how may grounders he's fielded? does the league have a restriction on how many times a kid can play 1b, 2b, etc.?

have you ever taken a look at pitcher stats? fielding percentage typically isn't what people look at and those pitchers with the big contracts win ball games and get the big contracts with their pitching not their fielding. you go ahead and take pitchers who have a good glove and I'll take the cy young candidates and we'll see who's team wins most of the games and then maybe you'll better understand what I meant when I said I'll take strong pitching over strong defense.

Dude! Once again you don't get it.

When I say that a pitcher is a defensive player I am not talking about fielding. I am stating that good pitching is a huge part of good defense. How good is your defense going to be if your pitcher is getting peppered all over the field?

You stated you would take good pitching over good defense any day. What I am saying is that they are one in the same. They all work in unison to make a defensive unit. Pitchers are not offensive players they are defensive. You can't have a good defense without a good pitcher.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

Correct, but good defense makes for better pitching and good pitching makes for better defense. They are directly related.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

there are three aspects to baseball.... hitting, pitching, and defense.

pitching and defense are not the same.

How can you say that? Is it not the job of the pitcher to keep the other team from scoring runs? Isn't that the same job the other defensive players have?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you say that? Is it not the job of the pitcher to keep the other team from scoring runs? Isn't that the same job the other defensive players have?

I can say that because when anyone else on the planet talks about what it takes to be a good baseball team, they always mention pitching AND defense.

they are not the same. related - of course. but not the same at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can say that because when anyone else on the planet talks about what it takes to be a good baseball team, they always mention pitching AND defense.

they are not the same. related - of course. but not the same at all.

In my opinion, they are all defensive players with a different skill set. A pitcher has a different skill set than a 1st baseman and a 1st baseman has a different skill set than a shortstop or a center fielder. All are important to make up a good defensive team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hey let's argue semantics like a bunch of lawyers. that sounds like fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Minnesota

IP H R ER BB K HR WHIP Season ERA

F. Liriano 7.0 8 2 2 2 7 0 1.29 3.17

M. Guerrier 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0.95 1.71

J. Rauch (L, 1-1) 1.0 2 1 1 0 0 1 1.22 3.00

Pitches-strikes - F Liriano 112-73; M Guerrier 16-9; J Rauch 14-9.

Ground balls-fly balls - F Liriano 12-5; M Guerrier 2-1; J Rauch 0-3.

Batters faced - F Liriano 31; M Guerrier 4; J Rauch 4.

Here's the line from last night's game. hmmm I see an awful lot of PITCHING stats here and no mention of how may DEFENSIVE plays were made by Liriano, Guerrier and Rauch. I don't see anything like this for Cuddyer, Young, Hardy, etc., etc. If pitching is the same as defense, why do they have these separate stats for pitchers only? Wouldn't Rauch's pitch that Swisher knocked out of the park be listed as an error if pitchers are just another defensive player out there on the field like the other 8 defensive positions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you Greebs.

The game consists of pitching, offense and defense. A pitcher becomes a defensive player once he throws the ball. Even with that said, if there's a pop up to the infield, how many times is a pitcher called off? 99.9% of the time. Do you see pitchers going out of their way to get a grounder or do they typically let their infield take care of the play? That’s what I thought…

Pitchers have fielding stats just like any other position, however, unless they won the gold glove numerous times you don’t hear a lot about their defensive skills.

So Big Dave, to answer your absurd question, why are pitchers paid so much, it isn’t to be defensive fielding experts. They are paid to pitch every fifth day. Their defensive abilities do not win games. Kind of like Punto’s offensive skills. Period. End of story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you I'm right, you're wrong, period, end of story guys do realize you are arguing what you have personally defined the meaning "defense" to be, right?

Let me math it out for you guys:

1. pitching + fielding = stopping the offense

2. stopping the offense = defense

3. defense = pitching + fielding

4. pitching does not equal fielding

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you I'm right, you're wrong, period, end of story guys do realize you are arguing what you have personally defined the meaning "defense" to be, right?

Let me math it out for you guys:

1. pitching + fielding = stopping the offense

2. stopping the offense = defense

3. defense = pitching + fielding

4. pitching does not equal fielding

Sounds like a pretty good explanation but I don't see that language in the MLB rule book. Thus, like everyone else’s opinion, your explanation is also a personal opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like a pretty good explanation but I don't see that language in the MLB rule book. Thus, like everyone else’s opinion, your explanation is also a personal opinion.

i think you are close to getting it, but you're not quite there.

and BTW since you want so desperately to argue the semantics of "defense" look to page 15 of the MLB rule book, which I think is the entirety of Big Dave's point:

"The DEFENSE (or DEFENSIVE) is the team, or any player of the team, in the field."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Read my comments.... I stated a pitcher becomes a defensive player after he releases the ball...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Big Dave, to answer your absurd question, why are pitchers paid so much, it isn’t to be defensive fielding experts. They are paid to pitch every fifth day. Their defensive abilities do not win games. Kind of like Punto’s offensive skills. Period. End of story.

I never said anything about pitchers being fielding experts. Thier defensive abilities DO win ball games. Thier defensive ability is PITCHING. Pitching is a part of defense. I don't know why you don't get that. Every sport has 2 parts, offense and defense, pitchers always have and always will play on defense. They are defensive players no matter if they ever field a single ball in thier career. Any baseball team would field a pretty poor defense without a pitcher.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Read my comments.... I stated a pitcher becomes a defensive player after he releases the ball...

So...........he's an offensive player before he releases the ball?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Minnesota

IP H R ER BB K HR WHIP Season ERA

F. Liriano 7.0 8 2 2 2 7 0 1.29 3.17

M. Guerrier 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0.95 1.71

J. Rauch (L, 1-1) 1.0 2 1 1 0 0 1 1.22 3.00

Pitches-strikes - F Liriano 112-73; M Guerrier 16-9; J Rauch 14-9.

Ground balls-fly balls - F Liriano 12-5; M Guerrier 2-1; J Rauch 0-3.

Batters faced - F Liriano 31; M Guerrier 4; J Rauch 4.

Here's the line from last night's game. hmmm I see an awful lot of PITCHING stats here and no mention of how may DEFENSIVE plays were made by Liriano, Guerrier and Rauch. I don't see anything like this for Cuddyer, Young, Hardy, etc., etc. If pitching is the same as defense, why do they have these separate stats for pitchers only? Wouldn't Rauch's pitch that Swisher knocked out of the park be listed as an error if pitchers are just another defensive player out there on the field like the other 8 defensive positions?

Goaltenders in Hockey have thier own stats, are they not a part of the defensive part of the game? Quarterbacks have different stats than Runningbacks and they both have different stats than wide recievers, are they not all part of the offense?

They are all just different positions thats all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Your Responses - Share & Have Fun :)

    • gimruis
      The guys in that tourney aren't permitted to use live bait though.  That makes a substantial difference.  Clear water and pressure with nothing but artificial lures makes for a difficult bite.   I don't have a theory as to why the average size of smallmouth on Vermilion is declining.  The common explanation would be too many smaller fish are gobbling up resources and there isn't enough for bigger ones, but that doesn't seem like a plausible answer in a big lake like Vermilion.  Certainly people aren't keeping plus sized smallmouth either.  That far north, it takes a bass about 10 years to reach 5 pounds/20 inches in size.
    • Rick G
      St Cloud has a good access at Wilson park,  Sartell has a nice access off NE River Rd,  another access above Blanchard dam on East side off Hilton Rd  and at Lindbergh state park...Little Falls  has a access right above the dam.   Water is pretty high and dirty.  Crayfish colors have been good again this week.  Smallies have been using anything available that breaks the current so finding them most days has been pretty easy
    • Brianf.
      Interesting...   You're doing better than most.  The biggest bass weighed-in during the recent MN Bass Federation tourney was only 4.33lbs.   The winning bag was less then 20lbs.  To have several over 5lbs during your trip is pretty special.   Congrats!  
    • Jetsky
      Question.  I have guests coming who may want to fish for muskies.  I've cast for them in August along shorelines and at rock piles.   Do I fish for them that way in June?   Should I troll shorelines or drop offs for them?  Thanks.
    • partyonpine
      Yeah was up for a week.   As other alluded to the weather was brutal.  Did catch some larger walleyes on slip bobbers on windy points in under 5 feet of water.  As for minnows they were at Lucky seven in Virginia and Grubens has some nice minnows as well.  Smallmouth fishing was terrific given the circumstances.  
    • partyonpine
      Brian   That is funny and shows how things are anecdotal.  Just got back from a week we caught as many fish as we wanted, however our average size was 16.5-17 inches.  While no 6 pounders we did score several 5 pounders.  We did not catch any or very few fish under 14  inches all week.  I was just commenting that the average size has increased substantially.  We were throwing larger artificial and live bait but again did not really catch any small smallmouth.  Fished smallies for 5-6 hours each day and walleyes at night.  Overall was slow but the weather was horrendous.  Did go home with enough walleye to satisfy me.  
    • Brianf.
      I haven't been up to fish smallmouth  in a couple weeks.  My partner and I caught about 300 over the  course of those two days.  That sounds great - and it is if you like numbers. However, few of those fish were over 3 pounds and even fewer were over 4 pounds.  Most of our catch comprised fish between one and a half to 2 1/2 pounds.   I've been fishing the lake for 20+ years and feel that the size structure of the smallmouth in the lake has changed quite a bit during that time.  When I first started targeting smallmouth 20 years ago, half our bag seemed to be comprised of four pounders - and five pounders were in the mix with an occasional six pounder here and there. I haven't caught a 5 pound smallmouth bass in five years on Lake Vermilion!   They are a daily occurrence on places like Mille Lacs and in Door Co.   What has changed on Lake Vermilion?     I have some theories about why the size structure has changed, though curious what others are seeing.  Anyone have thoughts about the state of the smallmouth fishery on Lake V? 
    • SkunkedAgain
      Don't forget about the times that they unwittingly fly into your fishing line.   Normally I would say that ebbs and flows in food source would be a good sign. However, even with this bountiful mosquito population available there just really aren't enough bats around for the natural cycle to capitalize on it to any noticeable degree. The DNR says that roughly 90% of the bat population in the Soudan mine has died off. If that 90% is representative of the entire area, even a mosquito all-you-can-eat-buffet will not bring the bats back for many years.   Hopefully the little guys can make a comeback.
    • Dash 1
      Made it back to the chain today. Sunfish are spawning but finding them in the thick weeds is nearly impossible. My main reason to get out was to test my minnkota after rewiring it. It definitely made the difference. Never shut down once and I ran it for several hours.  Now I just need to relearn how to catch fish.😂
    • LakeofthewoodsMN
      On the south end...   A good week of walleye fishing with some big fish caught along with good eaters.  All of that despite some fronts that came through and lots of wind.  Being in a charter boat a few days this week was an advantage for sure.     Wherever you fish, there are days the wind will blow.  Here are some good options for anglers when the wind blows on LOW.   -Fish on a big charter boat -Fish the 42 miles of navigable Rainy River -Bays such as Four Mile, Bostic and Zippel Bay -Slide behind one of the thousands of islands that being up at the NW Angle -Trailer your boat to a leeward boat ramp and fish that shoreline A jig and frozen emerald shiner was the go to presentation for walleyes.  Most boats are anchored up and vertically jigging.  Some are starting to use spinners and minnows or crawlers with success.  This pattern will pick up steam as the walleyes are starting to transition with warming waters. Walleyes have been caught this week in various depths.  As a rule, 21 - 32 feet of water was still the range.  Again, various areas across the lake are holding fish.   Various rock reefs have been good.  Fish are transitioning to mud as the season progresses. On the Rainy River...  The river is flowing strong right now as water is being released from the dam which controls its flow.  With the heavier current, fish are being found in areas with a current break.  Even a slight break that still has current is a fish attractor when the water is moving.   Jigging with a minnow, pulling spinners and trolling crankbaits along shoreline breaks against the current in 6 - 12' of water is producing a mixed bag of walleyes, saugers, pike, smallmouth bass and an occasional crappie.   Casting to shoreline structure and even docks is also an effective method.   For those who like fishing for dinosaurs, the sturgeon season opens July 1st. Up at the NW Angle...  A great week of fishing amongst the island area of Lake of the Woods.  Guides fishing the Canada side of LOW reported big numbers of walleyes along with a mixed bag.   Minnesota waters also produced good fish.  Many of the walleyes are being found in deeper than normal water for this time of year, in that 22 - 28 feet.  As hatches begin and shiners begin to spawn, there will be some shallow water opportunities as well. The goto presentation continues to be a jig and minnow.  Pulling spinners with shiners or crawlers and trolling crankbaits also putting walleyes in the fry pan.     As is common in these parts, a mixed bag of walleyes, saugers, pike, jumbo perch, crappies, pike and smallmouth bass being caught.   Muskie anglers, the season opens on both sides of the lake Saturday, June 15th.  A glorious day for those who target the almighty predators!  
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.