vegetation spraying

[Jig Master]

Just curious if anyone knows about or has any opinions on the spraying of herbicides on the Mankato area lakes. Personally it seems to me that it has a negative impact on the fishing and isn't good for the water quality either. Near the end of the year on Washington I had a hard time finding a deep weed edge!

[thore]

It all comes down to the farmers spraying Phosphorus and applying Nitrogen to the surrounding fields, which ends up in the lake, which gives the lake weeds an abundance of nutrients, you know the story.
But its not about water quality it's about yields.
Unless you are one of the unfortunate ones that has a positive nitrate test come back to you on your well that your 2 year old kid has been drinking since birth and your asking yourself why is my baby blue. I'm done now my rants over and I hope I offended some of you.

[Uncle Grump]

Thore

Before you point your finger to much at the folks who feed you, I think you might want to look a little closer to the water for causes regarding the problem w/ high nutrient counts.

I have seen a number of articles which point out that URBAN and SUBURBAN run off from lawns, parks, golf courses etc have a effect on our waters too - not to mention household septic systems as well.

For a farmer to put excess fertilizer on his fields, and then have it run off is just a waste of $$, and they have tight bottom lines as it is. I'm not saying that farmers are blameless - but there is alot less than you might think.

Here is a link to an article on DNR's web site (hope this is ok Rick):

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/shorelandmgmt/guide/waterquality.html

Take a look at the lake homes you see - the imaculately manicured lawns (not to mention green), and the small amounts of natural vegitation that remains. In many, many - if not most instances these days, we're not talking one or two room cabins in the brush any more. Instead we have year around homes. This all impacts water quality, and our wildlife - furred, feathered and finned.

I am a rural property owner, and have my own well and septic system. I have concerns about the quality of my water - so do farmers. Remember - they have wells, and they drink water too.

UG

[thore]

well stated uncle grump, and what you wrote also holds a lot of truth to it. It is more than just the farmers, but I don't see too many lake shore property owners spreading manure on their lots which have drainage ditches running through their property into a creek then into a lake or river. I guess my big gripe is the application rates that MPCA has for applying manure, etc for some entities while farmers can just apply and over apply in many cases to fields not knowing the proper feed rates and % slopes to apply to the land accordingly.
Thanks for the link to the web site uncle please let me know how you feel about this. Write back

[hawkeye43]

And wasn"t the town of St. Peter the one that had a sewer line under the river break one spring that flowed for many days before it was noticed and then run for days before it was fixed. How many millon gallons was that again??? How big of a fine was that? 0 dollars. If a farmer did that they would be made the news big time and what do you think the fine be, BIG BUCKS.
How about the city of Mankato when a contractor hooked a sewer line from some new apartments to a storm sewer line and over 7,000,000 gallons of raw sewage went in to a slough. Do you know what MPCA said That the slough would clean itself up in a few years. The fine was $0.00 dollars Why werent they made to pump the slough out? Give me a brake!!!If a farmer has a spill they have to call the duty officer right now and they would held to that job until it was cleaned up. I am not saying mistakes are not made, lets just treat them alike.
I land apply both manure and biosoilds for a living, I know the rules of the game. I dont like all the rules, but I follow them. If you know of any farmers that doing something wrong than turn them in, thats what has to be done to clean the lakes and rivers up so be it. But remember to all so turn in the guy that blows his lawn clippings into the lake, thats just as bad as manure in the water.
Maybe those 2 room cabins should have their septic systems looked at because the newer homes on the lakes all have new septic sewers that are up to snuff or they could not be build them houses

[thore]

Nice info hawkeye 43 I am in total agreement with what you said. How easily one forgets about the St. Peter and Mankato incidents, thanks for refreshing my memory. I wish I would have remembered that when I first commented on this subject. Hawkeye is that the solution then just call everyone in when you see the smallest violation occur, and may I ask you this are people aware of what they are doing when they mow their grass clippings and such into the water or are they just nieve to the fact that small amounts over a long period can hurt the waters that we cherish. I'm also glad that you brought up the septic systems in these cabins and such is the county, state testing these systems to see if they are failing or not. Please reply it seems like you know a lot about this and I'd like to know what is being done to oversee these points that you brought up to make sure septic systems aren't failing. Or is everybody just on their scouts honor to report incidents that they have seen or caused.

[hogfisher]

You're right about all of the septic systems. Here in southern Minnesota there are a lot of cabins on the lakes. Alot of those cabins have been there for a long time and their septic systems drain into the lake. The problem is back when they built their homes, it was legal and now they are grandfathered in. I can think of many instances where people's septics are still going into the lake but the county won't do anything because these homes have been there for years.

[thore]

wow that's awful you would think if they can afford lake shore property they could afford to upgrade their septic system - equity in the house it's not like they would be loosing any money

[smallies24]

A couple things, first I am a bit curious if anyone has any futher comment or information on the original question of herbicides in the lakes.

Also, I can appreciate people's frustrations but I think people need to lighten up on the farmers a bit. One, I can think of no instance where any farmer has done anything to intentionally hurt wildlife or the environment. Two, a lot of them are just trying to get by and provide for their families and others the best they can.

And three, I think the average sportsman is just as guilty for spilling contaminents into our lakes. Take a look at what your motor is coughing up next time you're out. What you're doing is legal, but it too pollutes. Not any different than what a farmer is doing.

I do agree with the arguements with regards to the lake home owners. I just don't understand why having a perfectly green and manicured lawn should come before the quality of a lake.

Now I'm not claiming to be innocent of anything, just think there are a lot of factors people aren't considering. And I don't appreciate people attacking farmers for trying to make a living and provide the rest of us with food.

[hawkeye43]

after rereading this post and cooling off about farmer being the blame or problem for the way the lakes and rivers are, it was asked about spraying the weeds in the lake. I dont know what to say about that.Some places have very thick weeds. I live on tetonka and in front of my place, there are very few weeds growing up, I wish there were more to hold fish. Yes I dont like the green water we get in the summer, but live with it. I try to do things not to add to the problems, but I think as a whole there are alot of people that are just slobs & just dont care. I travel on alot of roads moving tractors , traveling slow you would not believe all the stuff in the road ditches, someone is putting it there. The closer you get to towns the more there is. Thank god for people that take the time to try to make it better. Just thinking about all the junk that I have picked up this winter on the lake when i am out fishing makes me ask why would you not take it with you in the first place when you leave, poeple just dont care. they think once the ice melts it gone. My kids dont like it when I stop to pick stuff up,why us but if I dont it might be something you might step on in the summer. I think you need to teach people to care. This spring the ice pushed up a small tractor tire, where did that come from?? Dont throw stones if you cant take getting hit, it hurts

[This message has been edited by hawkeye43 (edited 04-25-2004).]

[Clay.P]

I would rather see the vegetation cut rather than sprayed. I would say that most of the vegetation around the Mankato and Faribault areas will drop and die after June. Cutting a few paths for the public accesses and property owners to use to get to the main lake is best. The early spring vegetation will help with the spawning. In the lakes that have sprayed in the area it seems that the fishing has suffered for it along with the water quality. The ecosystems should be able to function as close natural as possible.

[Uncle Grump]

Thore

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. Also, please accept my wishes for you and your families health - especially you little one(s?) - having a sick child is no fun - been there.

I can appreciate the frustration you had when you made your original post. I also suspect you don't have a "farm" background. I don't farm myself, but my wifes family does, and the ag industry is something of a "hobby" for me.

Most farmers are really trying to coperate w/ application limits for manure. Its a resource for them - a $$ resource, as that brown smelly stuff saves them $$ .vs. purchasing chemical fertilizer, such as anhydrous ammonia. Just like there are slob fisherman and hunters - and we know they exist in our ranks, there are farmers who don't care, and will over apply manure.

But those that do care will apply only at the recommended rates. To put any more on is a waste of money - same as if the farmer overapplied the anhydrous. Most farmers who have livestock generally have more land than they do manure, hence they need to supplement the manure with chemical varieties. I will tell you this - manure is much more "land friendly" than anhydrous.

You should also be aware that current land use practices promote and encourage buffer strips of land (green space) along creeks, etc, so as to intercept and halt nutirents which might wash off fields.

I saw an article recently, might have been in the Star-Tribune, about the issue of phosphorus in lawn fetilizer - that the legislature is trying to get it outlawed for residential use. That's a start, but also think "detergents" - plain old laundry soap has gobs of it - and the PH is what sets off alge blooms. Remember those comments I and others made about septic systems? Its the PH that makes those whites white, and colors bright.

I'm sorry to say, we all have a hand in this. As another poster mentioned - we need to look at our own use of our waters - as well as what others do. The trash on the ice, in the road ditches, our two stroke engines, the 4 strokes that drip oil, our use of lawn fertilizers and detergents, it all adds up etc.

UG

PS: Curiosity question: Why do folks put fertilizer on the lawn, to encourage it to grow, so that it has to be mowed, thus preventing a perfectly good trip to the lake to go fishing because you're home mowing the grass?