Wolves vs. hunter in Star Trib

[delcecchi]

Whilst searching for scholarly data about how wolves kill deer, I came across this article. Unfortunately the site only let me see first page. But here is abstract

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Wolf Predation on Wintering Deer in East-Central Ontario, by George B. Kolenosky © 1972 Allen Press.

Abstract

Quantitative data on predation of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) by wolves (Canis lupus) in east-central Ontario were obtained by following a pack of eight wolves from January 11 to March 20, 1969. Data on sex and age of deer killed during the winters of 1964 to 1969 and success of hunts by wolves in 1968 and 1969 have been included. During the main winter of study, the pack travelled a total of 327 km over a period of 46 days for an average daily travel rate of 7.1 km. The maximum range of the group during the period of surveillance encompassed 224 km². The pack killed 29 deer during 63 days, or one deer per 2.2 days. Distances travelled between kills ranged from 0.3 to 43.4 km and averaged 14.7. The amount of food available per wolf per day was 3.67 kg. The calculated daily food consumption was 0.10 kg per kg of wolf per day. The average age (2.43) of deer killed by wolves was greater than the average age (2.02) of deer killed by hunters. The sex ratio of 42 adult deer killed by wolves was 250 males:100 females; in a sample of 290 hunter-killed deer the ratio was 92:100. In 1968, the hunting success of wolves was 25 percent compared with 63 percent in 1969. It was calculated that during the 5-month winter period, the wolves removed 9 to 11 percent of the 730 deer present when winter began.

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I hope folks are finding my research nuggets of interest....

[Steve Foss]

I hope folks are finding my research nuggets of interest....

I'd be more interested in research nuggets that didn't talk about 1968 like it was today, but all research, personal observation and perspective has value, IMO, and some research/perspectives can stand the test of decades. The more, the better!

[thedeadsea]

I don't doubt your view on that one bit Steve. I have been interviewed a few times and have seen some good slant on what I said. They can and will twist it any way they want.

But it is pretty hard to make the camera lie. Things can be cut out and dubbed in but footage of wild animals cannot be reinacted.

[thedeadsea]

... but all research, personal observation and perspective has value, IMO,

That I can agree with 100%!

[delcecchi]

That research nugget was copyright 1972. But I figured wolves and deer haven't changed all that much in 40 years, unlike computers and me.

[Steve Foss]

That research nugget was copyright 1972. But I figured wolves and deer haven't changed all that much in 40 years

Research methods have. And so have wolf populations.

[Steve Foss]

it is pretty hard to make the camera lie.

You are kidding me. I make the camera lie every day when it comes to weddings, portraits and product/commercial photography. Some clients pay for "reality" and some pay for "altered reality." I use my tools to satisfy my clients, as do you. You think TV is any different these days?

You look at a television screen and see moving pictures and make an assumption of reality, but those frames can be altered quite easily. Your assumption doesn't make an A$$ out of you and me. It only makes an A$$ out of the one making the assumption.

[thedeadsea]

Things can be moved around, altered, manipulated. Pretty hard to manipulate a video clip of a wolf bringing down a deer....

Besides, why would the nature lovers who produce these shows be out to make wolves look worse than they actually are??

[thedeadsea]

Originally Posted By: delcecchi

That research nugget was copyright 1972. But I figured wolves and deer haven't changed all that much in 40 years

Research methods have. And so have wolf populations.

Big time. Wolves had been brought down to nice, manageable numbers by the bounty in the early 70's. Deer have been on a rollercoaster ride since then due to many factors, one of them being the increase in wolves through every survey since then.

[wh1stler]

...I hate any carnivore that eats it's warm blooded prey alive.

You hate lions, tigers, bears, hyenas, wild African dogs, hawks, eagles, snakes, alligators, pelicans, muskies, northerns, various monkey species, coyotes? All of these have been documented eating warm-blooded animals while they were stil alive.

I would go so far as to say almost all carnivores of warm-blooded animals would begin eating still living prey if feasable.

That's a lot of hate, man.

Whistler

[caseymcq]

Big time. Wolves had been brought down to nice, manageable numbers by the bounty in the early 70's...

[delcecchi]

Did Ontario have a bounty in 68 or before? I thought this specific study was interesting since they followed one pack in country that resembles northern Minnesota and documented their travels and deer kills.

Now it was only one pack and one winter so it doesn't have tremendous significance but it is a data point that gives us a ballpark of what happens. I hadn't seen this kind of study in other papers. Some posters didn't seem to like the recent studies from Minnesota either.

I would have liked full text but it cost 24 dollars. And I am too far from the U of Minnesota to go read it in their stacks. It goes on for 13 pages.

[caseynicole]

Great thread guys but I have to agree with the hating on animals that eat warm-bloods alive. They're all just that "animals" they don't have cognitive minds that would allow them to think of their preys pain and fear. You can't think of animals on a human level their brains just don't function that way. Plus all of us hunters know the feeling they get when they're hunting "buck fever", although we have the brain power to not want our harvested deer to die horribly. (Hopefully!)

[Xplorer]

del,

Not sure if we'd have it somewhere in our stacks, but i work at UMD and could check in our library if you can give me the reference info to see if i could find the article. I could probably copy it and try to send it to you via pdf (I promise not to alter/delete/add/omit )

Ah, I see you listed it in the beginning. I'll take a walk later and see if one of those library types over there can find it .

[Duffman]

I understand the hate, I sort of feel the same way about deer. I don't hunt the things, and if they didn't provide substance for wolves, you could rid the whole state of them for all I care. I had to build Thunderdome around my garden because of deer, but that hasn't stopped them from providing prime dog rolling fodder in my yard. Not to mention the actual physical threat to me on the roads.

It's not like the wolves have the option of hitting the grocery store like we have, they need to eat deer to survive. So put me in the camp of celebrating a deer kill by wolves. Or a deer kill by man for that matter.

Also, if we are starting a list of hated animals, that dang noisey spotted cormorant of the north can join the list. That no good for nothing, bait stealin, sleep depriving creature. Yea, like I liked being awokwen in my tent from the sound of some woodland fairy playing the piccolo.

[53orbigger]

Del, I have a pdf copy of that paper if you would like it I can email it to you.

53orbigger

That's all I ask!

[leech~~]

I understand the hate, I sort of feel the same way about deer. I don't hunt the things, and if they didn't provide substance for wolves, you could rid the whole state of them for all I care. I had to build Thunderdome around my garden because of deer, but that hasn't stopped them from providing prime dog rolling fodder in my yard. Not to mention the actual physical threat to me on the roads.

It's not like the wolves have the option of hitting the grocery store like we have, they need to eat deer to survive. So put me in the camp of celebrating a deer kill by wolves. Or a deer kill by man for that matter.

Also, if we are starting a list of hated animals, that dang noisey spotted cormorant of the north can join the list. That no good for nothing, bait stealin, sleep depriving creature. Yea, like I liked being awokwen in my tent from the sound of some woodland fairy playing the piccolo.

Duff, how about those little worthless Red squirrels, they wake you up too don't they! Put them on the list!

[delcecchi]

Thanks. it would be interesting.

[delcecchi]

Thanks. send to delcecchi at gmail.com

I appreciate it.

[53orbigger]

Email sent.

[upnorth]

Great thread guys but I have to agree with the hating on animals that eat warm-bloods alive. They're all just that "animals" they don't have cognitive minds that would allow them to think of their preys pain and fear. You can't think of animals on a human level their brains just don't function that way. Plus all of us hunters know the feeling they get when they're hunting "buck fever", although we have the brain power to not want our harvested deer to die horribly. (Hopefully!)

Now that makes waaaay too much sense

[Duffman]

Quote:

Duff, how about those little worthless Red squirrels, they wake you up too don't they! Put them on the list!

leech~... They have ALWAYS been on the list. Once word gets around that there's a wrist rocket in camp, they tend to leave me alone.

[barney]

Do you hate people? Look what they do. Do you hate chickens? They'll cross the road just to get to the other side. Deer are deer. They'll swipe a carrot wherever they can or take a dump wherever they want.

You hate lions, tigers, bears (OH MY!), hyenas, wild African dogs. hawks, alligators, pelicans, muskies, northerns, various monkey species, coyotes? All of these have been documented either eating fresh garden vegetables or crossing roads (muskies and northerns when water levels permit).

I would go so far as to say almost all ungulates would eat a fresh green salad or cross a road if one were available.

That's a lot of hate, man.

[caseymcq]

Duff, how about those little worthless Red squirrels, they wake you up too don't they! Put them on the list!

They are good pine marten and goshawk forage

[leech~~]

Do you hate people? Look what they do. Do you hate chickens? They'll cross the road just to get to the other side. Deer are deer. They'll swipe a carrot wherever they can or take a dump wherever they want.

You hate lions, tigers, bears (OH MY!), hyenas, wild African dogs. hawks, alligators, pelicans, muskies, northerns, various monkey species, coyotes? All of these have been documented either eating fresh garden vegetables or crossing roads (muskies and northerns when water levels permit).

I would go so far as to say almost all ungulates would eat a fresh green salad or cross a road if one were available.

That's a lot of hate, man.

barney, I think Duffman was just adding a little humor in and he really doesn't hate wildlife.

[Duffman]

The pine marten who stole the Baileys/Hot Cocoa encrusted top to my thermos is on the list!! But I will not judge the whole species from the actions of one chocolate deprived individual.

[Duffman]

Do you hate chickens? They'll cross the road just to get to the other side.

Thanks for the chuckle.

[barney]

How refreshing to read a couple of guys who don't drink kool aid....

[DaveSorensen]

After spending hours reading the various points of view, it would seem that I should carry wolf traps in the store along with wolf food. But I do think it makes for an interesting read, out of curiosity how much information really is anecdotal as it relates to any of the studies that are done. In other words I can say that there must be more wolves since I've seen a lot more in the past 10 years than I did in the previous 10 years. Of course from a scientific point of view we would have to know how many contact hours I had outside, perhaps I'm just outdoors more rather than there being more wolves. The same holds true for the deer population. The 2008 deer season I saw a lot more twin fawns in the spring and certainly the week prior to the season I saw the most deer I've ever seen along the roads as I drove up Hwy 4 almost every day. 2009 saw a lot of single fawns and half the number of deer I saw the week prior to the season. Although from a hunting perspective I saw more deer 2009, than I did 2008. I guess what I'm saying is that based upon our observations in a very small survey area it's pretty hard to say that there are too many wolves, too few deer, too many deer, too few wolves. Perhaps a greater study of insurance claims on road deer kill is maybe a more accurate indicator of the deer population than any of the models that are used or hunting tallies. I think that the DNR, which by the way as it has been pointed out, wanted to manage the population. I also think that the DNR has a horribly difficult job to do when it comes to managing any of our resources. Realistically if they want a healthy moose population, stop cutting trees and eliminate all the deer. If you want a healthy deer population hope that the weather cooperates. If you hunted in 95 and 96 you know there were a lot fewer deer around, yet through the management many of those same areas rebounded to where they were not lottery areas but rather intensive or even managed areas. All in all I just want to say that I think the DNR does the best job that they can in supporting outdoor activities for everyone. Many times there are conflicting interests and the DNR has to try and address all of them.

My two cents worth on whether there are more wolves or not, is I think that there are more wolves, but I don't believe it has led to a decline (at least where I hunt) in the deer population, the weather has been a bigger factor and also where they have clear cut and where it has grown back. One last comment is if you see a wolf on the road or nearby do you all stop and look at it or do you drive by without stopping like everyone seems to do with the multitude of deer on the road. I think we are all lucky to be able to see a variety of wild animals in this area where we are fortunate to live.

[Casey Sunsdahl]

I for 1 like to see some wolves during the year