Poached Buck

[Musky Buck]

I hear ya trigger, the reason would be it's a relative of his and since it doesn't effect where he hunts since they are 45 miles apart he doesn't care. The thing I don't like is he has taken more illegal animals in illegal ways then he has by the book. Now, if I call TIP they will know likely who did as I doubt they have told too many which makes for my family being targets by them. Isn't that funny, he breaks the law but the finger will get pointed elsewhere. I personally know a CO very well and I think I will call him and just see what he thinks and what he can offer me for advice. I'd rather have it that a CO stumbled across 3 buck gutpiles and wondered who all hunts that property because there is only 1 guy with permission.

[BobT]

Quote:

It must make them feel like they are just stretching the law a little bit, but to hunt without a license would be illegal and called poaching.

So is hunting without a tag unless you are party hunting. Using a tag from another person without that person being afield in the party at the time the deer is taken is not party hunting by any definition of the word and therefore is illegal and is poaching just the same.

If you’re going to poach a deer, why bother paying for the license at all?

[deerminator]

Bob, the answer to your question is they can make it look legit and so they feel its legit. And after awhile, they actually start believing it's okay. Kind of like when people lie so much they actually start believing their own lies as the truth.

Several years ago, when the all season license went away and my archery tags went from 3 to 1, I was dismayed. I realized I was going to just have to be more selective and that putting a doe in the freezer early and hunting for the buck I wanted was a thing of the past. My game plan switched to going for that special buck until firearms season was over and if no dice, then working toward the first mature doe or buck that came my way instead. Not because I NEED the venison but because I typically hunt a lot in early season and am hunted out about that time and would LIKE some venison.

Conversely, I see so many guys in our area now skirt the law by saying they're going hunting with their wives and mothers, even telling stories about how their wife was out with them in the buddy stand when you know she's never hunted a day in her life. Not knocking women hunting, its just that in most of these cases, there's no way the wife wants anything to do with it.

I know that everyone will say, turn them in! The problem is, unless you have firsthand evidence or catch them in the act, you can't prove anything. There's just a deer with a seemingly valid tag. And in most cases, you'd make enemies pretty quick without having accomplished anything. Its pretty much impossible for the DNR to do anything unless they could pattern family member groups tagging numerous deer and then staking them out to catch those illegally tagging in the act. I'm sure they have a lot of time to do that. Plus, some guys I know have their buddies who don't hunt buy tags for them as well. How are you going to keep track of that?!?!?

I am looking forward to when my kids are old enough to hunt in a few years. I plan to take them out for the enjoyment of the sport, seeing them get deer, and the side benefit of getting a couple of deer for the freezer again each year.

[Musky Buck]

A wish of mine is on our opening weekend of firearms I wish we could put another 200 CO's in our state just for that weekend,I know financially we can't, most rule benders have little fear of being caught, baiters maybe, but the early/late shots, the illegal tagging, etc. Our CO's are swamped and duck,grouse,pheasant,geese, everything else is open as well. There are a lot of what I'd consider honest groups that bend the rules to save that Muzzy or late bow tag. Several like to rifle hunt somewhere, save their tag for muzzleloading closer to home and etc. Licenses are even cheaper today, 27 bucks one for me one for the wife and you then have 2 buck tags. So 54 dollars to take 2 bucks is less than the all-season tag of a few years ago.

[BobT]

At the risk of taking this thread off topic, although I have quite adamantly voiced opposition, I must admit that outlawing party hunting would make this much more difficult.

One of the disadvantages of outlawing party hunting is that it would also make it difficult to take a 12 - 16 year old hunting because you would be forced to buy two tags but not be able to use yours until your son or daughter filled theirs and then you'd have to leave them home for the rest of the season.

I don't know what the answer is.

[candiru]

I believe the CO could talk to these wives and others that are tagging these deer. See if they know how to load their gun, see if they can shoot, where they hit the deer, what they were wearing........etc, to see if they were really hunting. I lie would unravel pretty quick. If this is going to stop the CO's need our help. The restitution needs to be adjusted if that is only costing this guy $1000. The all- season license got people to used to shooting multiple deer and many areas of the state cannot sustain that.

[deerminator]

The last thing we need is more laws and it would penalize the honest party hunters that were enjoying themselves. As for talking to their wives, does the person actually need to prove they can load the firearm and shoot it? Because technically and legally, couldn't a person just carry the firearm afield and accompany the other hunter to party hunt? That may sound ridiculous but I'm wondering if the DNR would have a legal leg to stand on if that's the case. As long as she was with him with a firearm, they were party hunting. Doesn't mattter if she doesn't know how to or want to use the firarm. As long as she's present? If that's the case, then most women willing to buy a tag for their husband or boyfriend would probably defend them and lie. Doesn't a person have to buy their own license? If they're willing to be that dishonest, they'll lie to the CO too.

[96trigger]

I buy my wifes fishing license every year. I bet if I had her license, I could get a deer license for her pretty easily.

One of the old CO's in our area used to say the women of a particular town were the best hunters in the state because they almost all had their tags filled on opening morning. Go Figure.

[BobT]

The last thing we need is more laws and it would penalize the honest party hunters that were enjoying themselves. As for talking to their wives, does the person actually need to prove they can load the firearm and shoot it? Because technically and legally, couldn't a person just carry the firearm afield and accompany the other hunter to party hunt? That may sound ridiculous but I'm wondering if the DNR would have a legal leg to stand on if that's the case. As long as she was with him with a firearm, they were party hunting. Doesn't mattter if she doesn't know how to or want to use the firarm. As long as she's present? If that's the case, then most women willing to buy a tag for their husband or boyfriend would probably defend them and lie. Doesn't a person have to buy their own license? If they're willing to be that dishonest, they'll lie to the CO too.

I don’t even think the regulations define a party member as someone that is armed. In other words, if they are licensed members of the hunting party their tag may be filled by any member of the hunting party. They don’t actually have to be carrying a firearm. They just have to be a member of the hunting party.

[candiru]

From The DNR Regs:

PARTY HUNTING

• A “party” is defined as any group of two or more licensed deer hunters

who are all afield; hunting together at the same time; and all

using firearms (including muzzleloaders) or all using archery.

• A mixed group of firearms and archery hunters is considered two

separate parties.

• Crossbow hunters may not party hunt with firearms hunters.

• Crossbow hunters may party hunt with archery hunters if they

possess an archery license with a crossbow disability permit.

• Any member of a party meeting this definition may kill a deer for any

other member of the party who has an unused tag valid for that deer.

• Party members may not kill an antlerless deer in a lottery deer area

for: 1) a member of the party who is a resident under age 18; or 2) a

disabled person authorized to take antlerless deer under a permit to

shoot from a motor vehicle.

• Party members may not kill an antlerless deer for a youth in limited

youth-only areas.

[picksbigwagon]

in the field with the hunting party right Bob?

[Gordie]

WOW poached buck to party hunting

[deerminator]

elwood, we're talking about poaching when someone illegally uses a tag on behalf of a "hunter" that never planned to hunt. So it relates to the alleged poacher in the 8 pt case who allegedly didn't tag three deer legally.

In any case, I hadn't thought of that 96trigger. I bought my wife and I's co-fishing license once too using her drivers license. They've never asked me for it again, just asked me if I was still married to the same woman because sometimes guys aren't. Ha! I'm not for more laws but I wouldn't mind tweaking one and making it required for you to buy your own deer tag, in person, with your ID. You have to be there to register it, so why not when you buy the tag? A lot of guys wives and mothers would at least ask the question then, is this legal? And it might even start a discussion. Even it if just prevents some guys from poaching, that would be a start.

Also, it would appear from the regs that you have to be in the field carrying a weapon. But I still wonder what the legality is of making someone prove they can use the weapon and then charging them based on the outcome of the test. I'm not trying to create problems for the DNR or challenge them on this, I'm just wondering for the sake of it not deterring guys from abusing the system. I think I've mentioned this before, but even if I wanted to try that, my wife would turn me in. When I told her what some of these guys were doing with tags for their wives, she said if you ever tried that I'd turn you in immediately. I'd call that Cornicelli guy that's always quoted in your Outdoor News myself! LOL. God bless her for having ethics like that.

[Gordie]

I know that deerminator and That happens everywhere in the state. its not an isolated event.

and yes you have to in the field with the other hunters with the same weapon as they do. so when someone buys there wife a tag and she is at home in bed they can not tag a deer or when a guy in the party is at work the monday after opener cant use his tag. the list can go on and on poaching is wrong no matter how its done.

and yes you got a good woman with ethics as we need more hunter with that trait also.

[96trigger]

Realisticly, we are not going to change a poachers behavior. Do we still drive over the speed limit? Yes, most of us do. Do we risk getting caught? Yes.

My personal opinion on this is that a poacher is someone that takes a deer out of season, out of the regulated times (at night), or without a license. This type of behavior to me is the worst kind and should have a greater consequence than others.

I am not defending anybody that uses a wifes tag, it is still wrong and I would be more than happy to show anybody if I could that my wife has NEVER bought a game license. What these guys are doing is illegal, yet I don't believe its on the same scale as the above.

Our legal system is set up with different penalties based on the severity of the crime, misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor, felony, etc... I would like to see our DNR do the same thing. This is just MHO. I also think that the CO needs to be able to use discretion. With the gain in popularity of this type of behavior and the changing of the times. Maybe some of the penalties and regulations also need to change with the times.

Hunting is now a big money maker in the state. It is a cash cow for some, where before it was almost always about family and enjoying the outdoors. Land is getting leased, people pay thousands of dollars for guns, licenses, stands, cameras, etc... Deer hunting has changed in Minnesota rapidly, yet the changes at the DNR has been pretty steady. They do a great job, but need to keep changing with times in more ways than just regulation.

[deerminator]

Great post 96trigger. I personally believe illegally tagging a deer with a phantom tag for [insert friend or relative's name here] is no different than what the alleged poacher allegedly did in this giant 8 pt case. In every case, a deer is being taken illegally by misuing or not using a tag. It's all poaching. This guy has just been thrust into the limelight because of the size of the buck.

[96trigger]

yeah, I know, tagging a deer on someone else's tag isn't right, I just don't know if its as severe. At least a tag was purchased and the deer might have a chance at getting registered.

Where as a buck that was taken without a tag and/or out of season won't be.

Hypothetically speaking of course, If I had a person I hunt with say that he would leave his tags back for anyone that wants to use them. I would firmly say no, and then give them the its illegal and also "you just don't know, maybe you'll feel like coming back next weekend" line. "You should just keep it with you".

Sometimes, these guys just want to see their tags used, so they don't feel like they wasted their money. Doesn't make it right, and I still don't condone it. Tags in our area are pretty plentiful, there really isn't any reason for this kind of tagging.

[BobT]

From The DNR Regs:

PARTY HUNTING

• A “party” is defined as any group of two or more licensed deer hunters who are all afield; hunting together at the same time; and all using firearms (including muzzleloaders) or all using archery.

I admit that I was going on memory. This brings up a curious question but rather than steal this thread I'm going to start another.

[Bear55]

I kind of see poaching and buying a tag for your wife in the same light, there are certainly different levels of poaching and they should be punished accordingly.

Just imagine for a second if the guy who shot the big 8 had bought tags for a family member and registered the deer, he probably never gets busted. These other hunters who alwasy fill their wifes tag and then keep hunting are just as bad as this poacher, they just never get caught. I'm sure some of these guys are shooting big deer and making it look legal when they shouldn't even be out in the woods.

[96trigger]

Yeah, I don't want to stick up for people that buy tags for wives that don't hunt at all. thats not where I was going, but I think that there is a difference in severity. People can disagree, and I am OK with that.

[jkcmj]

I personally see it as no different than speeding...

I accept that when I am caught I will pay a fine for it.

I certainly don't look down on someone for speeding or not registering deer to eat, liscense or not, as long as they are eating them, just expect them to pay the fine if caught. Consequences.

I don't like the DNR taking and wasting the meat. That is stupid. The guy had it in the freezer to eat, that makes sense and shows he is not out there to waste the resource. Take the horns/trophy, but don't be wasteful.

I have never had my wife buy a tag, but I live in an area where I can shoot 5 deer, and have kids who hunt, so always plenty in the freezer here without need to break the law.

I guess we all have our own set of morals we were raised with.

My loyalty is with friends, family, etc. Not with the DNR. If someone does something I don't like I don't associate with them. It would be different if they were trespassing or doing something that violates anothers property or personel liberty.

Remember, when the gov finally outlaws guns, or hunting, the same guy turning you in to the DNR will be calling the feds to turn you in for keeping a gun to protect your family...

[mabr]

I've got to weigh in on this. Trigger im with you on your thoughts.

Reading all these posts has made me remember Jesus's saying " Thou who is without sin be the first to cast the stone" Or something to that effect.

I do not nor will I ever condone what this guys did in any way. But I have known many over the years who were in the same class as him. I originally from the south, and you havent seen anything until you get around a bunch of redneck country boys from North and South Carolina,GA, Alabama. I think ive seen it all. Some may remember seeing TV reports on the bear poaching in the Smokey Mountains for their gall bladers, I knew these guys personally. I can introduce you to one of the most prominent men in one Southern community that "Killed" a Georgia DNR motorized decoy. I witnessed 2 federal game wardens that lost all ethical values when it came to Turkey hunting in GA, they each took 1 more bird than legally allowed. 1 guy I knew would catch deer all season long with a piano wire noose, another would kill every trout in a stream by putting lye soap in it and collect every last fish. Was it right? HECK NO, Have we all done something illegal to some degree? I say Yes. Maybe not to the degrees as the above listed items but what is the difference. There all Illegal, who makes the call on which is worse?

I ask this of all of us on here, Have you ever?

Threw a spinner bait prior to Walleye Opener?

Walleye arent bitting on opener but the Bass are on the bed, Hey why not throw something to catch them instead, were not gonna keep them anyways, lets just have some fun. Ever done that?

Pulled the boat out after dark on a millfoil infested lake , its to dark to check for plant life on the trailer, no ones gonna find out so you leave without checking.

Brought home a limit of fish in the livewell?

How many walleye are in your freezer? How many are you allowed in possesion # ?

Shot after legal shooting hours ? We have tables but how many know what the time is besides 1/2 hour after sunset or sunrise

Tracked a deer with a dog ? I personally asked a local warden what he thought. Im not going to say who it was, but he told me if he seen it or was reported to him, the individual situation would weigh on his decision. I did it I admit it, I shot what was a 3 year quest for 1 buck. I finally got my chance with my bow, he quit bleeding after 300 yards. I was tore up over it and went and got my good ole golden retriever to try and help after I spent the entire next day afield looking. I fully knew it was not legal, but i made the decission that in this case I would take the risk. ( I still do not agree with this law). I never did find that deer and it still causes turning in my stomach today when i think about it.

Checked your firearm to make sure its still on the day they arrive in deer camp before opener? Im guilty as well as the hundreds of others I hear shooting every year where I hunt. The way i read it NOT 5 DAYS BEFORE OPENING DATE UNLESS AT A RANGE.

Removed there blaze orange while bow hunting during open gunseason, or for that matter Ive seen it while guys were gun hunting. Please dont go into the safety ramifications i know,but on private land It happens guys!

Perminant stands, How many have built stands over 16 ft ? That big oak tree with a wooden seat placed in a crotch over 16 high would be considered illegal

Registered your deer ? How many have been tagged but never registered ? Lets say you kill it at night find it late in the evening, throw it in the truck, hang it in the garage or outside for that matter and it never gets to the check in station. Its tagged, harvested in a legal manner, You didnt harvest anymore than you were legally allowed but failed to register it. I realize if you have someone else process it this cant happen but there are tons who process their own. "Besides the Buck that this guys shot, this very well could be the case for 1 of the charges he's facing"

Not "truly attempted" to find a wounded animal. This is a huge pet peave of mine. I've seen it way to many times.

I'm sure there are alot more circumstances I could ask if giving the time to think about it. But I hope you see what im getting at, we've all done something that would be considered ILLEGAL in the eye of the law. If you say you havent, I'd probubly be praying "to" you at night. And the last time I looked I dont remember seeing his name on any of the post ive seen so far.

Im sure im gonna take flack over my comments, some may say they havent broken any game laws. I admit it, I have. Thankfully I've become alot wiser over the years and wouldnt consider doing most of them now. Did I intentionally do it then? No !(with the exception of my dog) Will it happen again? I really hope not, but If it does I will take responsibility for it!!!!!

I wouldnt know this guy who shot this great deer from adam. I only read what others write on here, based on that, he does sound like an outlaw. But lets hear the whole story,, then ask yourself what would you have done.

I'll get off my soap box now.

[96trigger]

Good post.

[BobT]

So then, mabr, since we all probably broke some law somewhere, somehow, and sometime (and that's probably true) then does that mean we have no right to say a thing? In that case since every government is made of up those same unlawful citizens, every law, every statute, every rule, and every precedent ever made is invalid and we do not have to live according to the laws of our land because none of us, no not one, is righteous enough to pass the judgement.

I think you have misinterpreted the quotation you referenced.

[Red Miller]

Ditto, Good post. We could arm-chair philosophize all day long about severity of viloations but the bottom line is I will guess that we have all violated at some point. I would hesitate to contrast illegally taking deer with speeding. You could say that speeding (altough socially accepted to some degree) is actually directly endangering lives whereas illegally taking a deer....not so much (except the life of the deer of course:)

[Musky Buck]

I must be a rare dude then as I don't need a pat on the back, but I didn't break any of those mabr. My grandpa's were to thorough, they would never stand for anything illegal and if you even thought it, it could mean a whipping. But, the one I did break was the sight tagging law. Where I hunt, way off the road in wet tamarac swamps, we tried to sight tag only to have those paper tags get shredded while dragging, we can't use an ATV, it's a by hand deal and it's not easy as we only shoot mature bucks which often times are fairly large. So we had to decide, is it better to lose or have the tag destroyed or get the animal to the road so it has a tag. We called the CO and he brought us replacement tags, after a few years of that he said look at that rat hole you guys have to use, how about tagging them when you are 50 yards from the road. It's water all the way and the draggers have to wear hipboots and those with shaky hearts can't help at all, not worth a heart attack. There are tons of guys like me and you out in the woods and on the lakes that we can't have a successful outing if the rules aren't followed. I was lucky to have 2 strict grandpa's that knew each other and had the same code of conduct, which trickled down to us all, they provided the leadership that was fair and just for all of us and with them there were"no exceptions", bless there hearts.

[Musky Buck]

I think I see the picture clearer now, we weren't governed by the DNR as much as our own family saw to it that we all played the same game. The DNR puts out the rules, but it's up to parties and the individual to follow them, growing up with you never break the rules from an early age on is what molded me as I sit here today. Strong family support from the start is crucial, no wonder as family has taken a back seat in many households that we have quite a few who didn't receive the message about treating out resources and regulations with the respect they deserve. Better yet, after receiving the message putting it into practice proving to your elders that you are applying the message. My grandpa once said, I asked him about a neighbor of his who got caught with an overlimit of fish, he said you are supposed to get more satisfaction from obeying the law then you do from breaking it and that I can remember that from 1979 like he spoke it today, man that was 30 years ago.

[mabr]

So then, mabr, since we all probably broke some law somewhere, somehow, and sometime (and that's probably true) then does that mean we have no right to say a thing? In that case since every government is made of up those same unlawful citizens, every law, every statute, every rule, and every precedent ever made is invalid and we do not have to live according to the laws of our land because none of us, no not one, is righteous enough to pass the judgement.

I think you have misinterpreted the quotation you referenced.

Bob, I very well may have misinterperated that quote. I do not want to get in a battle over bible and interpretations. That was not the intent at all! But quite a few on here have put the noose around the guys neck already. I'm glad im not in his shoes. BUT giving my question and what I know i have done I very well could be considered to be (in some peoples eyes) just as bad.

I'm so conservitive and have such a strong belief in the things you questioned me on that it would make most on here sick. Yes we all have that right!!!!! And I encourage all to express that right.

Please guys, Im in no way condoning his actions or your rights to jump on the band wagon or voice your opinion. I guess in a way I was asking (to all) are you any better than him if you have broke any of the laws I mentioned. How much is that 1/2 inch short/over walleye worth off of Mileacs, or that 1 over the limit. A deer to my neighbor isnt worth much, but pull a few extra walleyes out of his favorite lake and he's gonna make the to call to the CO.

[Musky Buck]

Thing is we are talking about a few deer and an exceptional trophy, what number was this dude on, sure it's speculating, but who knows how many he has taken illegally. Most drunk drivers I doubt it's there first time driving drunk just like I'd have to guess most illegal deer hunters it's likely it's not the first time they violated. This guy could be what some need to rethink there illegal ways. But, it certainly is time to drop it and he'll get what he deserves.

[mabr]

I think I see the picture clearer now, we weren't governed by the DNR as much as our own family saw to it that we all played the same game. The DNR puts out the rules, but it's up to parties and the individual to follow them, growing up with you never break the rules from an early age on is what molded me as I sit here today. Strong family support from the start is crucial, no wonder as family has taken a back seat in many households that we have quite a few who didn't receive the message about treating out resources and regulations with the respect they deserve. Better yet, after receiving the message putting it into practice proving to your elders that you are applying the message. My grandpa once said, I asked him about a neighbor of his who got caught with an overlimit of fish, he said you are supposed to get more satisfaction from obeying the law then you do from breaking it and that I can remember that from 1979 like he spoke it today, man that was 30 years ago.

Musky Buck , you can ride in my boat anytime. I trully wish i had that type of up bringing. My family were hunters, Dad not to big into it and he passed before i really got into it big time. But you are so right, the little things are where it starts. I remember this to this day. My uncles deer hunting,( i was like 6 or 7) back before anywhere had doe days or tags. younger uncle (first time hunting) shot a huge doe. Older uncle scolded him up and down, BUT they took the deer. snuck it out after dark. That how alot of people justify it. Your fortunate my friend! Most never had that. My hats off to you and your family.

Oh by the way, You no longer have to tag that buck until you get it to the truck for the exact reason you mentioned. Ill find the page in the book and post it.