Tarvaris Jackson

[zepman]

Brad Johnson and Gus F. had probably 30+ years(combined) NFL quarterback experience under their belts and that didn't seem to have an effect on him. It doesn't get any more "veteran" than that.

[AWH]

At the point they were at in their careers, that's clearly not what Jackson needed. They were nothing more than backups. If either of those guys would have been here 5+ years earlier for Jackson, I would agree. It could have potentially been a better situation. What he needed is exactly what he's getting this year. A veteran that can come in and effectively lead an NFL team. Watching and learning is a big thing. When the coaching staff has so little confidence in both Brad and Gus that they feel they have to put Jackson in there, I don't think they were getting the veteran leadership they needed or were hoping for.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

The guy has shown zero ability to read a defense or manipulate defenders. He has what it takes below the neck but it doesnt matter if ya don't have it above the neck. He has shown nothing that says he ever will either. He has shown nothing to prove that he will be what the vikings need anytime in the near future. They will not gamble anymore years away with him. Seeing what the offense is with Favre is making it very clear how far away Jackson is. I know you like to play devils advocate here, but there is no way you can say that you have seen anything that shows he will be a QB anytime soon that is ready to take the reigns of a team that is this loaded with talent.

[Iron Cowboy]

The guy has shown zero ability to read a defense or manipulate defenders.

He has what it takes below the neck but it doesnt matter if ya don't have it above the neck.

He has shown nothing that says he ever will either. Seeing what the offense is with Favre is making it very clear how far away Jackson is.

Man I couldnt have said it better myself,,,oh wait I have said the EXACT same thing....have been saying this all along and it's like talking to deaf people around here. I bet big T wont even be in the NFL in two years, he will be let go when his contract expires and then a couple of teams will pick him up thinking it was bad "teaching" then when that doesnt work everybody realizes he will never get it and he's done... anybody thats followed the game has seen it before. Lets face it if guys like Favre came along that often or were able to be made or molded they wouldnt get 12 million a year at 40 years old...thats a fact...e'nuff said.

[AWH]

there is no way you can say that you have seen anything that shows he will be a QB anytime soon that is ready to take the reigns of a team that is this loaded with talent.

I agree completely. That's why I have said that I hope the Vikings go out and get a top tier QB (somehow) when Favre calls it quits...again. However, if faced with Jackson or any QB the equivalent of anything else they've had on the roster the past 3 years I would take Jackson every time.

The biggest reason I take as hard a stance on the guy as I do is because of the comments that say the guy will never amount to anything in the league, as if there's absolutely no chance and this is claimed as a fact. The actual facts (yes, in my opinion) are that the guy has all the tools to be a very good NFL QB. Part of that is up to him, and part of that is being put in the right situation. For the first time in his career, he's in a good situation for himself, 3 years too late. Unfortunately for fans, they saw him in his rawest stages and many can't put those moments out of their mind even when he performs well.

The comment that he has shown zero ability to read a defense or manipulate defenders is obviously an exaggeration. If that was the case, he would have been flat out cut a long time ago. Has he been great in that aspect? Absolutely not. But he's a lot better than most people give him credit for.

Most fans want instant gratification. And if a player isn't able to provide that in a couple years, they have a hard time seeing a person in any other light. Sad, but true.

Aaron

[james_walleye]

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

there is no way you can say that you have seen anything that shows he will be a QB anytime soon that is ready to take the reigns of a team that is this loaded with talent.

I agree completely. That's why I have said that I hope the Vikings go out and get a top tier QB (somehow) when Favre calls it quits...again. However, if faced with Jackson or any QB the equivalent of anything else they've had on the roster the past 3 years I would take Jackson every time.

The biggest reason I take as hard a stance on the guy as I do is because of the comments that say the guy will never amount to anything in the league, as if there's absolutely no chance and this is claimed as a fact. The actual facts (yes, in my opinion) are that the guy has all the tools to be a very good NFL QB. Part of that is up to him, and part of that is being put in the right situation. For the first time in his career, he's in a good situation for himself, 3 years too late. Unfortunately for fans, they saw him in his rawest stages and many can't put those moments out of their mind even when he performs well.

The comment that he has shown zero ability to read a defense or manipulate defenders is obviously an exaggeration. If that was the case, he would have been flat out cut a long time ago. Has he been great in that aspect? Absolutely not. But he's a lot better than most people give him credit for.

Most fans want instant gratification. And if a player isn't able to provide that in a couple years, they have a hard time seeing a person in any other light. Sad, but true.

Aaron

If he had any ability to read a defense and manipulate a defender they wouldnt have traded for Sage, they would have just grabbed a backup in free agency. And they wouldnt have had a need to chase down Favre. Why do i say that? If he could do this he would be the starter and there would be no need to do anything else. Why is he with the team? He has the physical tools, thats why they havent cut him. Why did they go in a different direction? He hasnt shown any ability to read anything on the field. There is a reason that Chilly wouldnt let him read any more than 1/3 of the field last year. The game is to fast for him and he can't see whats going on, hence the constant hesitations and pumpfakes resulting in plays breaking down all the time. He can't read a defense, its pretty obvious and surely not an exaggeration. With the tools he had, if he could read a defense better than some people give him credit for he would have done more than lead a comeback over an 0-16 team or beat the giants 2nd or 3rd stringers in the time hes been given.

After 3 years in the league he hasnt given anyone a reason to see him in a different light. Its not as if the guy hasnt been given ample opportunity. Hes been given one heck of alot more opportunity here than he would have been given anywhere else considering the vikings havent been in rebuilding mode. No other team with the talent the vikings have had assembled would have given him near the amount of time to prove he can play.

[AWH]

Most of what you said is stuff we've already gone back and forth on here a hundred times. So not sure why we continue beating a dead horse over things we clearly see differently. But to say that anyone (forget T-Jack) in the NFL has ZERO ability to read a defense...or that someone hasn't shown ANY ability to read ANYTHING on the field would be an exaggeration. No one would be able to make roster cuts out of training camp, let alone have a job for three years if that wasn't an exaggeration. To say otherwise is complete ignorance. None? Zero ability? How did he even make his high school team? None? Really?

Now IF that were the truth, I find the fact that he has only thrown 3 interceptions in his last 250+ NFL passes nothing short of a miracle. There could be no more amazing stat in all of professional sports, if someone had ZERO ability to read a defense or manipulate defenders. What a sad statement for all these defenses he has faced over the last year plus that can't seem to pick off a guy that has ZERO ability to do anything. I think they should all lose their jobs.

As far as what Chilly has allowed him/or not allowed him to do...again, he has been like that with EVERY QB under his reign until Favre. It's not just a T-Jack thing. Just having physical tools isn't why they haven't cut him. Believe it or not, he actually has FOOTBALL skills. This is what keeps players on rosters. Otherwise they may as well bring in athletes that have never played football because they have physical tools. I heard Rashad McCants is looking for work.

Pump fakes and hesitations. Boy, we haven't seen any of that out of Favre, have we? That's part of what gets defenses to bite and keep plays alive longer. That's what allowed Favre to throw the TD pass to Lewis to win the SF game. Without them, he would have been a dead duck and sacked. If guys aren't open you aren't just going to stand back there like a statue. You either need to run or do something to maniuplate the defense such as a pump fake, which T-Jack has ZERO ability to do, I've heard.

They wouldn't have traded for Sage, they would have just grabbed a backup in free agency? Ummmmm, in case you haven't noticed, Sage IS backing up T-Jack. What they SHOULD have done in the off season is go out and get a guy that can be a top tier QB since Jackson isn't ready to take that load yet. Maybe a guy like Favre.

Aaron

[AWH]

Hes been given one heck of alot more opportunity here than he would have been given anywhere else considering the vikings havent been in rebuilding mode. No other team with the talent the vikings have had assembled would have given him near the amount of time to prove he can play.

I agree 100%! Other teams wouldn't have been forced to throw a guy out there that wasn't ready. They would have brought someone in with experience that was clearly better and could let Jackson do what he's doing this year to aid in his development, rather than hamper it. The only other franchise that would do something like the Vikings did is on the west coast and they wear black and silver.

Speaking of guys that aren't showing ability to develop. Would you rather have T-Jack or Jamarcus Russell?

Aaron

[AWH]

My nomination for funniest quote of the year on Fishing MN.

We arent bashing the guy.

Priceless!!!

Aaron

[Swimbait2009]

Do you actually watch the games? You actually compare a Brett Favre pump fake to a TJunk double-clutch run for your life spazathon?! Favre does it to make a DBack bite on an under route in order to open a deeper behind route, while TJ does it because he's too late with his decision and his intended receiver is now covered. The defensive backfield is so fast in the NFL and they read a QB that telegraphs his passes so badly, that TJ has to do those double clutches.

Two moves that I guess are physically similar movements, because of two completely different circumstances.

[AWH]

So he never pump fakes to make the defense bite? Never? Right! The way people analyze his play on here (if it were accurate) it's amazing he's ever been allowed to throw a pass at any level.

Aaron

[AWH]

And a pump fake is for more than just the secondary. They're also used to hold off the pass rush. But apparently T-Jack only pump fakes because he realizes he was too late to hit his receiver? Again, I'm amazed this guy has ever been allowed in a game. He must be a smooth talker to convince his coaches to play him. Yeah, that must be it. T-Jack the smooth talkin' salesman!

Aaron

[gr8icefishinmind]

Aaron you are holdin it down buddy!!! Your posts are great to read because they actually have some sense to them compared to the haters with all the, "he will never" or "he has never" comments that are basically rediculous!!

[AWH]

Speaking of which, check out this You Tube video of things that T-Jack has never done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjnk9da-hA

I don't know how they put that video together. Because he doesn't have the ability to do ANY of what it shows there. Never has, never will. I read it here, so I know it's true!

Aaron

[LMITOUT]

ROFL! That's some fantastic video of three preseason games, two of which the Vikings lost with your boy at the helm!

Just stop digging or you'll never going to get out of that hole you've put yourself in.

[gr8icefishinmind]

That video proves that jackson cannot and never will be able to make reads in a game!! haha...get real haters!!

[AWH]

I knew we could count on LMITOUT to chime in with his infinite wisdom! Sorry bud, I didn't make the video, so I didn't have control over which games were shown there. Just showing a video of many things that he can't do. Whether it's pre-season, regular season, or post-season, I've read it here many times that he can't do it. So I was just showing the optical illusion of video tape! Amazing what they can do with video these days! So who's digging a hole other than the T-Jack haters? I love how the haters side of things "never" contradict themselves just like T-Jack will "never" be able to do so many things!

T-Jack is labeled by many on Fishing MN as the kind of guy that can NOT do certain things. No way, no how, can't do 'em, period. But when evidence is supplied that he can, then it's not in the right situations. He doesn't do it in the ONE playoff game he has played, he doesn't do it against tough enough competition, tough enough situations. Last I checked, even the bad NFL teams are capable of beating the good teams. If you don't play well, you're going to lose. NFL talent is NFL talent. So what is it, either he can or he absolutely can not? I see the same people say it both ways. Can you contradict yourself a little more? How are we to know which way it is if we don't learn from the great Tavaris Jackson minds that know he will never amount to anything? Teach us. But let's have a little consistency in your theories so we can absorb the wisdom!

Aaron

[Swimbait2009]

Our point is he can't do them against real defenses in pressure situations. It's been shown in previous posts that his good games at the end of last year were against successful teams, but not against their top roster. And what a game he played in the playoffs! You say he can play under pressure? Amazing how well he did in that game! TJ has physical talent. That's never been debated. What he doesn't have are football smarts, and even though Gus and Brad were at the tail end of their respective careers, they were still full of knowledge and experience that TJ has never shown that he absorbed. Both QBs were very good QBs in their day (BRAD WON A SUPER BOWL!), and even with their diminished skill set there was plenty they could teach.

[AWH]

Good games? By what I've read here, I didn't think he's ever had a good game.

What exactly is a "real" defense? I'm sure every team that T-Jack has performed well against believes they had a real defense on the field. And while the point of many might be that he can't do things against "real" defenses or in pressure situations, the point of many has also been that he can't do them, period, against anyone, anywhere, anytime. I'm not saying that you have said that. But it has certainly been said by many people on this forum.

My take on him performing under pressure is that we need to see him in a few more pressure situations before we can draw any conclusions. I always hear about the one playoff game, ONE. I sure hope Brett Favre doesn't perform in the playoffs this year like he did in the ONE playoff game that was his most recent playoff game. It's ONE game, and his ONLY playoff game he has ever performed in. Do you think he maybe had more than a few nerves for his first playoff game? If he didn't, I wouldn't want him as my QB. Very few QBs (yes, there are a few) come up big in their first playoff game, especially if it's early in their career. And we always fail to mention that he was and still is RAW when it comes to his development in the NFL. But yet we still expect him to look like an All Pro when the pressure is on or we label him as worthless. At least we aren't unrealistic in what we expect from the guy!

Whether you guys admit it or not (and I'm sure you won't, because you haven't yet), he has continued to improve from day 1. Has it been a fast improvement? Absolutely not. And this is obviously one of the frustrations for fans as well as coaches. But the facts are that he's still improving. His play isn't falling off like happens to many young players that can't handle the NFL game. JaMarcus Russell looks like one of those that can't handle it. He has shown some promise early one. But his play has quickly leveled off and even gotten worse. At least Jackson is still going the right way, even if it's not as fast as any of us would like.

Brad and Gus might have both had some knowledge of the game to share, but they clearly weren't the right kind of guys to have in here. They needed someone that was still good enough where there would be no temptation to have Jackson take over their starting position. On field experience was not his biggest need at that stage of his career. Although I haven't seen T-Jack head butt a goal post like Gus, I have no doubt he did learn from both of those guys. But how much is a young guy really going to take from a guy who's playing ability on the field is well past its prime? Hopefully he didn't take much from what he SAW but rather what he heard from them.

Just a thought. But if the first 3 years of T-Jack's career saw his only action as pre-season and mop up performances, I firmly believe that the people that are the loudest about wanting him gone would be the loudest about wanting him to be the starter this year if Favre wasn't here. That's how fans typically are. They want what they haven't seen and they want to hold a grudge against players that have had more than a couple of bad performances.

That being said, you guys crack me up. Nothing more entertaining than the T-Jack posts on Fishing MN. I'm glad it's just football and nothing that matters!

Aaron

[Swimbait2009]

"But yet we still expect him to look like an All Pro when the pressure is on or we label him as worthless."

The rest of our team is All Pro caliber, so in our package he does not hold much value. We need an All Pro behind center at this time.

"JaMarcus Russell looks like one of those that can't handle it"

Here's one I think we're on the same page on! I'd rather have TJ than JRuss!!!

"But how much is a young guy really going to take from a guy who's playing ability on the field is well past its prime?"

Hopefully a lot since not many coaches are going to be making any appearances on the field (Mike Tomlin might still be able to suit up...Singletary would scare the [PoorWordUsage] out of me too! )

"if Favre wasn't here"

If Favre wasn't here I would have liked to see the Sage/Jackson competition finish out. The way the two QBs are ranked now doesn't necessarily reflect the winner of the that competition. And I feel objective about this, even though I'm not a TJ fan. TJ gives us a versatile player that is available to us if Favre is taken out of the game (big lead) or (let's hope not) gets hurt. I think it makes sense to have him as our QB2 due to the emergency QB substitution rules. I would rather have versatility and athleticism out of my #2 with a game manager behind than the other way around. Always a good decision to keep the game manager as your last resort. I'm also somewhat confused/disappointed that we might be happy with a lesser (than Favre) QB if Favre wasn't here. If Favre wasn't here we would still want an All Pro caliber signal caller to lead our All Pro defense backed by our All Pro defense.

"They want what they haven't seen"

This is human nature and doesn't stop with football. Would it be fair to say that you are of this opinion right now? You would like to see what TJ could do with another prolific receiver out there, because you like the guy and haven't seen him do it. I think that's fair enough, if I liked a guy that wasn't playing, I'd want to see him too.

"I'm glad it's just football and nothing that matters!"

Ain't that the truth!

[zepman]

AWH...Are you on Fishin58's payroll??

[AWH]

I'm on my own payroll, zepman! And swimbait, no I would not like to see what T-Jack could do out there. I still don't think he's ready to take the reigns of a playoff caliber tea). I simply believe he deserves the opportunity to develop/grow (as a backup) and given the chance to start again someday when he's ready, whether that's with the Vikings or someone else. Unlike many people, I'm not ready to write the guy off given everything that's already been discussed here. But now on to more imortant things...I'm going fishing!

Aaron

[Swimbait2009]

I think it would be very difficult for him to succeed here in Minnesota. He has to know that a large contingent of Vikings fans are not on his side. I don't know if he has the cojones to deal with that. Not many people do. I really think he would do better in a new environment, with a clean slate.

[james_walleye]

Pump fakes and hesitations. Boy, we haven't seen any of that out of Favre, have we? That's part of what gets defenses to bite and keep plays alive longer. That's what allowed Favre to throw the TD pass to Lewis to win the SF game. Without them, he would have been a dead duck and sacked. If guys aren't open you aren't just going to stand back there like a statue. You either need to run or do something to maniuplate the defense such as a pump fake, which T-Jack has ZERO ability to do, I've heard.

They wouldn't have traded for Sage, they would have just grabbed a backup in free agency? Ummmmm, in case you haven't noticed, Sage IS backing up T-Jack. What they SHOULD have done in the off season is go out and get a guy that can be a top tier QB since Jackson isn't ready to take that load yet. Maybe a guy like Favre.

Aaron

Are you kidding me? Are you really comparing Favres pumpfakes with Jacksons hesitations??? You know exactly what im talking about with hesitations. Im not talking pumpfakes with Jackson, im talking about a guy that in NFL terms is "open" and Jackson hesitates and pumps and pulls it back because he isnt sure about it. Because he doesnt see it clearly!

They traded a 4th rounder away for Sage in an attempt to go in a different direction. If they had any faith in Jackson they don't trade a 4th rounder away, they go pick up a free agent QB to replace Gus. Remember that plan? Pick up Gus to backup Jackson? Yeah that plan went really well. The team won 10 games inspite of the QB position. Even with a mediocre starting caliber QB this team last year would have been in a great position to make a playoff run. Thats why they traded a 4th rounder away, an attempt to go in a different direction.

[james_walleye]

My nomination for funniest quote of the year on Fishing MN.

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

We arent bashing the guy.

Priceless!!!

Aaron

Now go ahead and put that quote in the context in which it was intended. You know full well that was in relation to the drive Jackson played against the Rams in which people were hyping a 118 QB rating in garbage time. You know full well the context was no one is bashing the guy, we just arent going to jump up and down and sell balloons over a drive in that situation.

[james_walleye]

So he never pump fakes to make the defense bite? Never? Right! The way people analyze his play on here (if it were accurate) it's amazing he's ever been allowed to throw a pass at any level.

Aaron

Here i'll spell it out to you, the guy has not shown the ability to to read a defense or manipulate defenders at an NFL level. With his physical abilities if he had he would be a decent starting NFL QB. You know darn well we are speaking in NFL terms, not college or high school for gods sake.

[LMITOUT]

Come on James, you saw the video.......AWH posted the proof that he can do all those things!

[Swimbait2009]

Originally Posted By: AWH

So he never pump fakes to make the defense bite? Never? Right! The way people analyze his play on here (if it were accurate) it's amazing he's ever been allowed to throw a pass at any level.

Aaron

Here i'll spell it out to you, the guy has not shown the ability to to read a defense or manipulate defenders at an NFL level. With his physical abilities if he had he would be a decent starting NFL QB. You know darn well we are speaking in NFL terms, not college or high school for gods sake.

LMITOUT:

He says "at an NFL level". That video was not a true reflection of playoff caliber NFL play. Come on man.

[LMITOUT]

[Swimbait2009]

LOL! Missed the sarcasm in your "voice"!