Minn. could see antler-point restrictions in 2010

[mrklean]

MN is a very different state then others, Southern MN is open farm country, the woods very along rivers there are tons of woods with cropland along it, very good stand hunting, but when you get away from the river its tons of small chunks of land so all they do is drive and shoot, i lived there for 18 years and thats why i switched to bowhunting, what they do is not hunting, when you go more north its a mix, cropland and woods so its a mix and match of driving and stand hunting, if you go west its much more open, if you go more up north its big woods and nothing but woods it seems so its sit and wait pretty much. Like it was said before there are half a million hunters all hunt different ways in the state. I have bowhunted almost everywhere in the state and no place is the same just like no two people are the same. No matter what someone is gonna be mad by whatever the DNR does or doesnt do.

[Musky Buck]

I agree getanet but there is no doubt in 26 years of rifle hunting you can get an inkling about what's out there when you breathe and live it every day and talk to locker plant people that tell me each year more and more young bucks are brought in and fewer and fewer mature bucks are brought in and overall it's smaller deer than years past which equates to younger deer being brought in. For me it's the old 2 day season, we hunted hard and having only 22 hours in a rifle season weather pending, we did what we did and we shot way more liberally. We changed our ways. Now some of those same style of hunters have 9 days by rifle and a bonus 16 by muzzy if they choose to. Makes sense to me why some are seeing fewer deer and smaller deer and less bucks and predominately smaller bucks. It's party hunting with longer seasons and more tags and more pressure because no hunter with a tag left is ever done until that sunday night at 5:11 even having taken as many deer as there are available tags. The resource is very pressured making for many a nocturnal deer which has led many to baiting. mrklean is right, our state is very diverse so statewide changes are tough to do. I think we could leave much alone if we shortened the season(s).

[vister]

id be for shortened seasons, however, i would like my bowhunting to stay the way it is, or maybe year round?! can we work with that! that'd be awesome

[MOSSY]

I have helped process roughly 150-200 deer a year for the past

25 years nd have not seen a decline in the size of bucks.have

[Musky Buck]

No kidding. Your area must be lots of QDM and go-grow. No decline in the size actually the age of bucks brought for processing, impressive.

[Musky Buck]

Maybe they are just jumping out of fort ripley and running up 371 north, you can see what limited pressure and age there can do for the herd.

[james_walleye]

Originally Posted By: james_walleye

Well pickel if you've read anything about the DNR they don't manage our deer herd for trophies meaning the reason AR are coming up is because they think biologically something needs to be done, not because myself or anyone else on this site wants something done.

Just because a single deer is healthy doesnt mean a herd is healthy. Any wildlife biologist will tell you that when 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings that something is seriously wrong with the age structure of the bucks within the herd.

I don't think that 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings. Who says that??? No Really who says that??? Show us proof!!!! You want to throw out numbers then prove it.. I'm really tired of all the numbers. I hunt deer and shoot what I can. If it makes you unhappy then prove why I should change my hunting style.. My thought is that when you kill anything for Pleasure YOU ARE WRONG.. Maybe you guys that have the "Trophy mentality" should talk to your grandfathers a little. To hunt for fun of Killing the biggest is a joke, and its sad. That in my mind is not sportsmenship and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Sorry pickle i don't need to prove anything to you. I have done my research and i don't throw random numbers out. Why don't i have to prove anything to you? Because the DNR is starting to see something is wrong and change is coming, that should be enough to prove to you that i am not out in left field. I have done my research, from the stuff you have put on this public forum it looks as though you have done none. Some people on this forum have not agreed with me, but its a matter of opinion, not my numbers being wrong. Buddy up to it pal, change is coming.

[Getanet]

Well, he's the statistic from the article this thread is about...

"Kip Adams, a biologist with the Quality Deer Management Association, said about 60 percent of its bucks harvested in Minnesota are yearlings, which is among the highest in the country."

So according the QDM guy we're one of the highest in the country, but about 25-30% lower than the 85-90% figure being tossed around.

[Musky Buck]

Pickel it's hard to have a trophy mentality with many areas being void of any decent buck. A lot of us I think are trying to say some would like a better chance at harvesting at least a decent buck or deer, we can't even get to that point the way the abuse of cross tagging is done today because the young bucks are overharvested. Maybe I should appreciate even more the mature bucks I've taken in the last 10 years because it's almost a miracle I got any of them and more of a miracle they got to the age they got to. I did ask my grandfathers who were fairly poor farmers and laborers all there life, they said don't shoot young bucks and with a different tone of voice, how in the .... do you expect them to get older if they don't get the chance ? I think i understand the moving the season out of the rut now as much as I like seeing a large swelled up neck guy. When I let several young bucks walk chances are they will go to other landowners looking for does etc. and a place to rut. Out of the rut these deer might stay on my land more because the chasing the doe phase will be done and they'll be more into refueling lost rut body weight etc. It would help more reach the desired age I'd like to see. Oops AR, is many of us trying to figure out how we can get some selective harvest going while creating fair conditions for each hunter. Basically it's those who pass on deer vs those who don't want to have to pass on deer. Basically our deer season is almost a huge cash cow. With almost 550,000 deer hunters in MN, is there an answer.

[B. Amish]

Sorry pickle i don't need to prove anything to you. I have done my research and i don't throw random numbers out. Why don't i have to prove anything to you? Because the DNR is starting to see something is wrong and change is coming, that should be enough to prove to you that i am not out in left field. I have done my research, from the stuff you have put on this public forum it looks as though you have done none. Some people on this forum have not agreed with me, but its a matter of opinion, not my numbers being wrong. Buddy up to it pal, change is coming.

I'd also like to see a source that says 90% of the buck harvest is yearlings. I've never seen estimates that high. I've seen estimates in the 60-70% range but not 90%.

[buckhunter21]

Ok im not sure who threw out the 90% number and dont really care but now we have a source and a number to work with, 60% of our buck harvest is yearlings. Thats not as bad as 90% but you have to be nuts not to agree that even 60% is ridiculous. That means that bucks with there first set of antlers have less than a 50/50 shot of seeing their 2nd birthday. How many of that 40% that isnt shot the first year is shot the next year? Im guessing a pretty good number there too because 2.5 year olds arent exactly the smartest deer yet especially during the rut. So we have maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 bucks at the most that are making it to where they have a chance of having any respectable antlers. I dont know how you can sit there and say that something doesnt need to be done because that is completely unacceptable.

[CSTPETER]

I'd have to look again for specifics but there was an article in the outdoor news a few weeks ago that gave a general idea of what the DNR wants to accomplish in this state. Basically they broke it down into a couple phases with the first being population control and second being overall herd quality. Once population goals are met it sounds like they will focus on Herd quality. Lou C discussed a lot of different management tools that may be implemented and APR was one of them.

I think all opposed to this need to ask the question why would the DNR do this? and why do most other states surrounding Mn generally have some sort of quality measure in place?

Like I've said before, The way this state manages it's deer herd can't be the same year after year. Most in opposition view current regulations as as if they were carved on a stone tablet. The DNR needs to be fluid and dynamic when they create regulations. They need to respond to real time issues, they can't afford to make decisions based on how Joe hunter remembers a hunt in 1985. There is obviously a goal that they are trying to get to and I'd like to believe that they should protecting and maximizing the resource rather than managing by public opinion.

[picksbigwagon]

can I ask what states you are referring to? and then what specific quality measures they use?

[Bear55]

I'd have to look again for specifics but there was an article in the outdoor news a few weeks ago that gave a general idea of what the DNR wants to accomplish in this state. Basically they broke it down into a couple phases with the first being population control and second being overall herd quality. Once population goals are met it sounds like they will focus on Herd quality. Lou C discussed a lot of different management tools that may be implemented and APR was one of them.

I think all opposed to this need to ask the question why would the DNR do this? and why do most other states surrounding Mn generally have some sort of quality measure in place?

Like I've said before, The way this state manages it's deer herd can't be the same year after year. Most in opposition view current regulations as as if they were carved on a stone tablet. The DNR needs to be fluid and dynamic when they create regulations. They need to respond to real time issues, they can't afford to make decisions based on how Joe hunter remembers a hunt in 1985. There is obviously a goal that they are trying to get to and I'd like to believe that they should protecting and maximizing the resource rather than managing by public opinion.

Well said CSTPETER. Too many people are afraid of change, our buck population clearly has some age structure issues and its good to hear the DNR is noticing the problems and hopefully taking steps down the road towards a more natural balanced herd. Anyone who thinks our herd is biologically sound is kidding themselves.

[Pickelfarmer]

Sorry pickle i don't need to prove anything to you. I have done my research and i don't throw random numbers out. Why don't i have to prove anything to you? Because the DNR is starting to see something is wrong and change is coming, that should be enough to prove to you that i am not out in left field. I have done my research, from the stuff you have put on this public forum it looks as though you have done none. Some people on this forum have not agreed with me, but its a matter of opinion, not my numbers being wrong. Buddy up to it pal, change is coming.

Well I guess you put me in my place!! I guess I'll just shut up then... I won't like it, but I'll shut up.

[MOSSY]

My point Musky is that 25 years ago we were not seeing big bucks then either. We have had more mature bucks brought in the last few years than ever before.Even a few 200 pound six pointers (no brow tines) would be kind of hard to let him walk ,(and die of old age)Unless you are only hunting antlers

[Getanet]

"That means that bucks with there first set of antlers have less than a 50/50 shot of seeing their 2nd birthday."

That's what the 60% figure is saying. That means 60% of the bucks SHOT are yearlings - but not every buck in MN is killed each year. It's impossible to know how many bucks, much less yearlings, make it through unscathed (2006 success rate was 42.8% among all hunters).

But 60% of yearling bucks are not killed each year. 60% of the bucks that are killed are yearlings.

[archerystud]

From the MN DNR website:

Search for BigBucks.pdf:

"Unfortunately, few live that long. Squeezed into thin woodlots and the occasional wetland,

many deer don’t survive opening weekend. Hunters scour deer habitat so thoroughly that in

some farmland areas, less than 10 percent of the bucks live to be 2 years old."

Search for farmland.pdf:

"While the harvest rate of bucks varies in Minnesota, the majority of the bucks killed during the firearm season are 1½ years old. Typically, 50 to 75% of the 1½ year-old buck population is harvested during the firearm season."

The bottom statement says firearm season ONLY. What about bow, car and natural death???

[52luge]

I still want to know how then, can some people go out and shoot 130 class deer every other year in areas that are slug hunted like crazy. I'll tell you how. They scout 12 months of the year, learn the land they hunt, use scent control, and take every precaution they can. I've said it before, there are plenty of monsters out that never get seen let alone shot at. I will probably never shoot something like that unless one stumbles in front of me. I put in time but I'm not obsessed about it and I'm perfectly happy with my deer hunts. We have alot of fun and get some venison to boot. My friends who shoot the big ones are happy too, because they know that with hard work and dedeication, it will pay off. I know that they are not begging the DNR for more regs. Why should they? They don't need them.To shoot a big deer isn't easy. It never will be and it shouldn't be.

[james_walleye]

Ok i researched some numbers, got a few mixed up. 60% of the harvest is yearlings. Over 80% is yearlings and 2 year olds. The DNR will tell you that 85% of our antlered bucks are shot every year.

[buckhunter21]

Not very good odds if your a young buck. What do we do to fix that?

[heat checker]

Not very good odds if your a young buck. What do we do to fix that?

Train them to shave their horns and travel with the fawns?

Looks like it might be easier to do that then change the minds of people one way or another!

[fivebucks]

Ever think that them young bucks are the dumbest and that is why they are getting shot? The bigger ones are a little too smart to get shot so I think that is one statistic that a person can skew to show their point of view if they want. I don't know what the biology or reasoning is behind the DNR looking into this but I bet if some vocal people weren't complaining they would not be looking into it. I saw 5 bucks last rifle season. 3 of them were 1 1/2 year olds, 1 was a 2 1/2 and the 5th was a mature buck. It was my choice not to shoot the smaller ones and I missed the big one. The big ones are out there if you put the time in.

It is a fact of nature that you are going to have more young animals of the species and fewer older ones so doesn't it make sense that more of the younger ones are getting shot? I have been very happy with the age structure of the deer I've been seeing the past several years. We hunt in the north woods so maybe it is more balanced up there since you can't drive every woodlot up there. As long as the DNR looks into this as a localized solution I would be OK with it cause what works for SE Minn will not work for northern MN. I do know that if we get a couple of hard winters up north the time will come again where you might only see 1 deer all season and if it is a buck (assuming bucks only again) I better be able to shoot whatever size deer it is. I certainly respect other people's view on the matter - this is my view.

[MOSSY]

Exactly right fivebucks

[Musky Buck]

Mossy your area is way different then and I believe you, maybe that high dollar land around brainerd is why, if you can afford it you'll probably be pretty patient and there are great deer there. 25 years ago we had way larger bucks around and great classic deer stories, now we can hunt longer and the stories are gone, we don't get to talk about the monster that slipped away or the one that double backed on a drive or the non-typical(s) we were having some frequency seeing, for us those days are gone, we're not seeing those big boys hardly ever. The bachelor herds of bucks in our area tell the tale, they've become fewer and smaller especially in the past 5 years, big decline.

[CSTPETER]

can I ask what states you are referring to? and then what specific quality measures they use?

A quick search of game and fish websites showed these tools were used.

Illinois- Lottery Buck and APR

Wisconsin- EAB

North Dakota- Lottery Buck

South Dakota- Lottery Buck

Iowa- No rut firearms, Lottery buck

Missouri- APR, Lottery buck

Minnesota-

[PEATMOSS]

What is Lottery Buck and how does it work?

Is Wisconsins EAB statewide or just in highly populated areas?

Thanks.

[DaveT]

My opinion is none of this stuff would be necessary if we went back to what we had 10 or 15 years ago. That is, less seasons, shorter seasons and less tags. We are too efficient with our 200 yard scoped shotguns and 300 yard muzzleloaders, put together with longer seasons and more liberal tags puts us where we are today. The areas I hunt do not have the numbers of bucks including but not limited to, mature bucks, that they used to have. I have only become better at hunting in the last 10 years, I spend twice as much time, effort, and money than I used to. I should be seeing more bucks than I am, at least compared to what I used to see. The only thing that has changed in the last 10 years is the amount of opportunity provided by the DNR. If they are going to continue down that road without instituting some rules to make sure more young bucks live through the season like they used to before we had 2 straight months of gun hunting in the metro, then guys like me are going to quit hunting here altogether. I have already quit duck hunting in MN because I feel my dollars are spent to protect ducks from me so they can be killed in Arkansas. If I don't feel represented, I'm not going to pay, and my dollars will go to Iowa or Kansas or where ever I can get value for my dollar.

[PEATMOSS]

Perhaps an area in which we could find some common ground would be to strongly discourage the harvest of fawns.

Many of you folks are in a twist about me shooting a forkhorn, but a good number of bucks get cracked before they get their first set of antlers. With the liberal use of management permits, I gotta believe that this is having an effect.

Now I'm not a liberal, so I'm not looking to force this on anyone, but wouldn't it be nice if the DNR put a statement in the regs urging discretion in the use of antlerless permits and encouraging hunters to use these permits to harvest adult does?

[DaveT]

That would be awesome, or institute a 10 dollar fine for shooting a button buck, like a parking ticket, not really an offense but you still have to pay. You're right Peat, every 3rd doe tag is getting slapped on a buck right now, that would go a long way, too.