Minn. could see antler-point restrictions in 2010

[Getanet]

I was on a different thread topic a month ago saying there's no way the DNR would implement any of the QDM tactics that have been suggested. Shoot, I hate to be wrong. I'm hopeful this is contained to the Bluffs area, and nothing else. If a very specific part of the state needs AR in order for the deer population to be healthy that's fine I guess. But where I hunt it's definitely not needed.

[mrklean]

Shackbash not to jump on you or the other guys that said it but if you cant fully tell what your shooting at should you shoot at it?

[rbs]

All of you have made your point. How about another tag option? You could have a doe tag, a small buck tag or a trophy tag. Now wouldn't that solve everything? I know it wouldn't but yet I also know that where I live in Morton that some people shoot whatever they want and don't really care. It is my personal opinion that youth should have the option of shooting whatever they want. Us grown-ups should shoot what they apply for whether it a doe or a buck. Not either sex...I think either sex is a bunch of [PoorWordUsage]. You want meat....fine....shoot a doe....leave the little bucks grow!

I also will say that in the area where I live that if they put a point restriction that there would be a lot of people that would not be able to taste some venison unless they had a doe permit. There is not a right or wrong answer in any of this. Just opinions and every opinion is swayed to the way they believe or how they were brought up(genetics?) Take care and don't get too riled up...only opinions right?

edit- not intended to be a reply to anyone individually

[B. Amish]

there's a pretty big difference between seeing and knowing that you're about to shoot at a buck and seeing and knowing wether that buck has 7 points or 8.

[MOSSY]

maybe everyone needs to get back to the basics of hunting

it was for meat not horns.i can about guarantee anyone that their grandfather,probably even father didn't care if the deer they shot had a large rack.

[mrklean]

RBS, i agree with you youth should be anything and adults different but you know whats gonna happen, adults are gonna use that tag, they know thats a problem now adults using youth tags to tag their deer. Personally i think we should toss the youth tag

[rbs]

I agree with you as well...then it is a ethics issue. Not even a ethics issue that is just plain illegal....really too bad!

[vister]

the reason grandpa and greatgrandpa didnt care about horns or not was because back in the day, if you saw a deer, you shot it. simply for the fact that there wasn't near the numbers of deer we have today.

now that we have very good numbers of deer in most areas, why don't we go a step farther with the quality of deer harvested? I'd be all for trying it for a year or two in my zone. maybe then neighbors would start to think it was the greatest thing on earth. or maybe i'd be whistling a different tune, and think it was a horrible idea. I guess before it has been tried out for a few years, we don't really know if it is for the good or the bad.

in state land currently with AR, has there been numbers of illegally killed immature bucks. has any data been collected that we know of AR's results working, good or bad?

how about people that shoot cows, horses, moose, and elk, especially other hunters, thinking that their target was a deer?

AR is simply a method of being more able to identify your target as well as herd management. instead of the"buck, bang!" method, you actually would have to get a good look at your target.

Bottom line, whether or not AR would be a regulation, my neighbors and hunting party will continue our AR practices where we hunt, because since we started within the last 5 years, we have been shooting more bigger bucks, and many nice does. We have passed on many little bucks, and haven't seen a negative result. Deer numbers are great, and the overall herd health is even better.

between myself, grandpa, dad and brothers, we have over 1700 inches of antler hanging up, just within the past 5 years. sounds like something is working in our neck of the woods.

[PEATMOSS]

For me, the whole QDM thing is sort of the straw that broke the cammels back. I see the QDM movement as symptomatic of a larger trend of conflict between what I would consider "the elitists" and the "traditionalists" of the outdoor world. As a traditionalist, I see things slipping further and further away for folks like myself. What was once the sport of the common man is rapidly evolving into an expensive, overly regulated GAME in which scores are kept in inches, be it fish or antlers.

Just like the gungrabbing liberals, one regulation will lead to another. 4pts on a side will evolve to 5pts on a side...then 10 pt bucks will become "scrubs" and it will be 6pts. If you greedy, self righteous folks keep it up, you'll probably win, because we all know the better financed, better organized side usually prevails. While you're at it, keep buying up/leasing and posting as much timberland as you can afford. You can't possibly have a "quality" hunt with commoners marauding about in the same forest.

My apologies in advance for the nasty tone, but the outdoors is not a game or a hobby to me. It is a way of life. If trends continue, I'm very afraid we'll go the way of Europe. Remember, every "weekend warrior" that you folks drive from the outdoors is one less hunter, one less license sold, one less voice defending hunting and probably eventually one less gun owner.

Enjoy your hunting everyone, for whatever it means to you. But PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE AND FUTURE OF THE SPORT, GET OFF OF YOUR HIGH HORSES AND STOP TRYING TO FORCE EVERYONE TO BE LIKE YOU.

[Phill Aldahl]

So who is on the high horse?

[CSTPETER]

[

Enjoy your hunting everyone, for whatever it means to you. But PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE AND FUTURE OF THE SPORT, GET OFF OF YOUR HIGH HORSES AND STOP TRYING TO FORCE EVERYONE TO BE LIKE YOU.

[MOSSY]

DITTO

[winterwalleye]

This will hurt hunting if done . We are already seeing a decline in hunters especially youth and if this passes it will only get worse. I think we should let the hunters decide this by letting them vote on this when they purchase a deer licence.The silent majorty would then be heard and I believe this would not pass. This law would only benefit the rich who have more time to hunt and own land. Let the hunters decide what they want to shoot.

[PEATMOSS]

CSTPETER,

My friend, I'm forcing nothing on you. You and others are free to pursue your beloved antlers. You are under no obligation to shoot anything that does not meet your standards.I am not trying to force or even persuede you to shoot anything you don't want to. Further, you are free to advocate your position and persuede others to follow your course.

Truly, if even half of the hunters in this state CHOSE to abstain from shooting "immature" bucks and refused to allow others to use their tag, you'd have your improvement. We have great bass fishing in this state, not because of restrictive regulations, but because of an ethic especially among good bass fisherman. Yeah, there are still folks that string up some toads from time to time, but the number of folks doing this are dwindling and they have a negligable effect on the population.

Likewise, if the majority of deer hunters CHOSE to follow your course, you'll have your buck utopia in due time. However, the fact that some of you folks are so insistant upon FORCING your agenda into law leads me to believe that deep down you're afraid that not that many really agree with you.

[MUSKY18]

I, for one, hope it does pass and they implement it state wide. You can label me as a "Trophy Hunter" if you want, but the fact of the matter is that in the area we hunt, if you get a shot at a small basket 8, you are lucky. Every single little buck seems to get blasted, and never make it to the age to become an eight. Let em go, let em grow.....I hunt meat first and foremost, and that usually means I will be looking to shoot a big mature doe before a small immature buck. Piled up two of them this past season and they taste very good.

I know up where we hunt, the same people that sit and complain about never getting to shout at a big buck are the same ones with spikes and forks riding around in the backs of their trucks. If you are hunting for meat, help the population and shoot a doe if you are able to, within the laws and regs.

We hunt up north and know about the "slim" times. There are 18 of us in our hunting party and we went 5 years without anyone getting a deer, but we all let the little ones walk and two years ago one of the guys shot a 10 point that dressed out at 228. Big deer with big meat on it!

[tednugefan]

what if we just got rid of all the bonus tags and let people shoot what ever they want still.

[buckhunter21]

Bonus tags are not at all the problem. A bonus tag only allows you to take an antlerless deer. Without the bonus tags the population would get to be too high and create a bigger problem so they actually help alot. You only get to shoot one buck a year unless you take someone elses buck tag. Thats the problem is people tagging someones elses buck. I wouldnt mind seeing ARs but i think it is going to be the most complained about management idea. I still think that moving hunting after the rut and getting rid of buck party hunting would work just fine and wouldnt get "as much" opposition as ARs but something needs to be done soon.

[DTro]

IMO, AR is a bad idea with good intentions.

Several great points.

The biggest being for those of us that hunt the dense forests up North. I used to do a lot of ground blind hunting and you have one or two narrow shooting lanes. You usually have time to indentify that it has antlers, and maybe how high they are (estimate) then it’s a quick decision to shoot or not. You simply don’t have the time, even at a slow walk to count points. Now if you are glassing a field and stalk hunting, like they do out West, that is a whole different ballgame.

Venison was a big staple in our diets growing up and it also subsidized our family grocery bill substantially. People should have a choice to harvest a deer. The number of points on its head shouldn’t matter.

IMO, showing off the big ones is more rewarding when they are less plentiful. It’s a vicious cycle this game. So now you have 10pters running around everywhere, now people aren’t happy unless they shoot a 14pter.

[Bear55]

My friend, I'm forcing nothing on you. You and others are free to pursue your beloved antlers. You are under no obligation to shoot anything that does not meet your standards.I am not trying to force or even persuede you to shoot anything you don't want to. Further, you are free to advocate your position and persuede others to follow your course.

Truly, if even half of the hunters in this state CHOSE to abstain from shooting "immature" bucks and refused to allow others to use their tag, you'd have your improvement. We have great bass fishing in this state, not because of restrictive regulations, but because of an ethic especially among good bass fisherman. Yeah, there are still folks that string up some toads from time to time, but the number of folks doing this are dwindling and they have a negligable effect on the population.

Likewise, if the majority of deer hunters CHOSE to follow your course, you'll have your buck utopia in due time. However, the fact that some of you folks are so insistant upon FORCING your agenda into law leads me to believe that deep down you're afraid that not that many really agree with you.

The thing is PEATMOSS when 1 large large group of hunters decides to shoot anything and everything they see they are affecting another large group of hunters that let those deer go. Where I hunt a small group of us have decided to pass up all the young bucks, in turn the success rates of the other hunters in our party and neighbors shooting young bucks have gone up. With every action there is a reaction, after decades of shooting small bucks there is now a strong movement towards QDM. Many people who might not have been for AR are now for new regulations to protect these young bucks. Why is all this happening? People are tired of the traditional management, they see the opportunity to have better hunting and they are going for it.

[Getanet]

"they see the opportunity to have better hunting and they are going for it."

Does anyone know how the DNR will define "better hunting" with the antler point restrictions? It seems to me that will be the hardest thing to clarify. Rack size, average age of harvested bucks, higher harvest rates for does?

I hope the have what defines success chiseled in granite before they implement these regs.

[slimngrizzly]

Im more of a shedhunter than a deer hunter. Theres no denying the sport of shedhunting and peoples fascination with antlers has skyrocketed. Its time the regs change with it. Its a fact, more people are into antlers than ever before.

Meat hunting..... seriously. Everyone here is in it for the love of the sport. Fortunatly they taste great and are great for us. I just dont believe anyone here typing on their computer, texting on their cell phone, listening to their ipod, is out because their family is counting on the meat to survive.

Their are just too many hunters, too much rural development, too many vehicles, just too much bad everything to allow everyone to group up and kill anything and everything they want.

Imagine if we could fish the walleye spawn.... and we could "party fish"..... and there was no restriction to the size.... I know this is apples to oranges but the point is, in this day and age we have to be restricted. Its our human nature to take and take and take until theres nothing left!

I DO NOT think Antler restrictions are the answer... but to me its a step in the right direction so I WILL support it. IMO shut the buck hunting down! Make it a lottery. DO what you want! Just do something because its as bad as ive ever seen it. There are ways to control QUALITY and QUANTITY.... and MN has not figured it out!

[PEATMOSS]

I hear you Bear, and I can see that there are a number of folks jumping on your bandwagon, which leads to the question I have asked continuously here and elsewhere.

IF the number of folks supporting the antler movement is so large, then why are regulations nescessary???

The math is really quite simple, if even half of the hunters CHOSE to abstain from shooting "small" bucks and refused to allow others to tag their deer, then you'd see the changes you are looking for. You could build on that success to persuede others to follow and in due time, achieve the results you are looking for.

Why do you folks find it nescessary to force your values on others by force of law?

[CSTPETER]

PEATMOSS, The point is that the management policies are almost 100% geared toward your "traditional" outlook. Because of this the way I measure my hunt is negatively impacted. You traditionalists see the current management model as an absolute, like Gods work on the eighth day or something. It's not, it doesn't need to be this way and I bet a lot of biologists would say it shouldn't be this way.

PEAT it's like having to fish in a lake where all you can catch is 11" walleyes because the DNR manages the lake specifically for that. Sure, a rogue 18" might survive but to specifically target that fish is a waste of time because the odds are being stacked against you by the keeper of the lake, whether it makes sense or not.

I'm not asking for a Booner behind every tree. I've worked dang hard for the two trophy's on my wall and I appreciate them more because of it. I do beleive we're doing this animal a disservice by trying to manage for such a small percentage of mature deer.

[buckhunter21]

I think that over half of the hunters would like to see bigger bucks. I just think that we need something to open their eyes that it is very possible. I know I have always wanted to shoot a big buck every year but I used to shoot the first buck I saw. Why? Because I was stuck in the "if I dont shoot it the neighbor will" mentality and I think alot of hunters out there think the same thing. It wasnt until a group of neighbors next to me started passing up smaller bucks that I realized that if I do pass up that small buck there is a chance it will make it. I think these people just need to be reassured that if they do pass up that little guy that he will make it until next year and ARs do exactly that. Maybe after a few years peoples mindsets would change and we wouldnt need ARs anymore.

[candiru]

I DO NOT think Antler restrictions are the answer... but to me its a step in the right direction so I WILL support it. IMO shut the buck hunting down! Make it a lottery. DO what you want! Just do something because its as bad as ive ever seen it. There are ways to control QUALITY and QUANTITY.... and MN has not figured it out!

[PEATMOSS]

CSTPETER,

An airline pilot has built a house smack dab in the middle of the woods I hunted as a teen and young man. The surrounding sloughs, potholes and crp grounds that I freely hunted and trapped in my youth have long since been developed or leased out and posted.

At the turn of the century, I packed up the family, took a 40% pay cut and moved north. Since I have been up here, I've seen the Potlatch and Diamond International land get chopped up, sold and posted. Other timberland has been leased and posted. I lost my best bear stand on leased land. The land directly next to my in-laws has been posted.My kids can't even go out for a dang walk in the woods at Grandma's because someone decided that they needed exclusive rights to a forest that had been shared forever. The wealthier folks up here are planting turnips and rapeseed in the middle of their property to attract more deer....

I could go on, but I hope you are getting an appreciation for why I take such great umbrage at folks like you trying to FORCE folks like me to give up our traditions so that someone can hang a head on their wall.

[Shack]

Shackbash not to jump on you or the other guys that said it but if you cant fully tell what your shooting at should you shoot at it?

If you have full knowledge of what is behind your shooting lane(s) before hand, have determined this is a "buck" at 75-100-120 or what ever yards, I do not see how this could be construed as not knowing what you are shooting at?? It is a buck, not a horse, not a hunter, not a moose, not a dog or even samsquatch! It is a buck! What is next, I have take the buck out to dinner or something, greet it first before I make a decision if I should take it down or if AR goes statewide I could honesty see having to formulate the weight of the a buck, before the trigger is pulled in the future. You know that would come down the pike next !

They may have changed firearms safety since I went threw it back in 89 or so, but they never went over anything about counting antlers, guessing weight or even determining if it was a doe or buck. Pretty much it was you had to determine “with out a shadow of a doubt” it is a deer before the trigger is pulled. Like I said, things may have changed, but if this does go statewide in the future, antler counting will have to be added the curriculum of Fire Arms Safety. I would think.

I am not against QDM at all. I just say leave it up to the land owners and the privet sector if they want to peruse it, but leave the general public hunting out of it. What is best for you and I, might not be what everyone wants.

Thinking out loud here, but you are a green hunter (which deer hunting in MN needs more of to support anything) on public land and you have a buck come into your hunting area, but on the far side of your “safe” shooting distance. It is a fork with an irregular tine on the back or even the front side of your broadside profile shot. This situation makes it look like a 6 pointer in the scope or open sites. You have decided this is the deer you want (based on what you have seen) and squeeze the trigger. The bullet flies and right in the sweet spot. Down he goes and the harsh reality of what you just did become apparent as you stand over your first buck. What do you do? Leave the buck lay? Contact the DNR and risk being fined or say the he11 with this sport and take up bowling? Same could be said for a first, second or third year hunter who has time and money invested sitting in the stand for 3-4 years, passing up deer they could have shot, only to give up because they have not shot a deer and wasted time and energy. To miss seeing a first time hunter or a youth hunter (on FM or in real life), even with a spike or fork, the excitement in their face from the game they bagged, the stories that would be told even as they do get bigger deer down the road would be lost for a period of time, hoping they continue hunting until the trophies herds start showing up. The last I heard MN is in need of more deer hunters to keep the sport going strong. How is going any amount of time of dropping your chances at even a small buck (or any) going to help gain hunters on any level back or introduced to this sport?

Why do we have the bag limits we have now? Remember how deer hunting was not to long ago, when bag limits where 1 buck and a lottery for doe permits. People stopped hunting because they did not get deer. Now we have so many deer and fewer hunters, they increased the bag limits more than I ever thought I would see them in my life time for a reason.

With the advertisements, publications and statistics reports from the DNR saying how deer hunting is on a major decline in this state, (IMO) this is not what the sport needs at this time. Maybe it does? Since deer hunting is at a very low point (maybe the lowest it has been for decades), the DNR would consider this a good time to increase the trophy buck population with not as many hunters hunting, in hopes it will recoup and deer hunting participation will rise again in 2015+, while increasing of out-of-state whitetail hunter revenue in 5 plus years. Or this could spell a devastating blow that MN whitetail deer hunting will never recover from.

You want to bring fishing "slots" into this discussion, look at Mille Lacs. How long have the slots been in place? 10-12 years now (I think). Ask any resort owner if they have seen a decline or increase in business since the slot was put in place (example of deer hunters hunting if after AR is introduced). Ask the anglers if "trophy" fish are back in full swing now, anymore than they where before the slot started (example of hunters bagging trophy bucks after a period of time since AR was introduced). Are the slots working on Mille Lacs? I do not know? I catch the same amount of fish now, as I did before the slot was introduced. My last "trophy" sized fish was caught the year before the slot too effect (this is just me though). I know a trophy walleye takes longer to grow to trophy size than maybe a buck, but to think if AR goes state wide and in 3-4 years the bagged "trophy" bucks will increase seems a little short sighted IMO. Maybe on private land in MN this works faster and in other states, but is MN like others states? Just like gaining the lost hunters who given up because of the bucks they pass up on just the first or second year (not to mention the following years) if AR went state wide, would be just as hard to bring back like the anglers who pass Mille Lacs on their way up north every year now, this far into the slot era.

[james_walleye]

40% of people in Missouri backed AR when they were introduced. Its not at a 90% approval rating. The same scenario will play out in MN like it or not. If the DNR didnt see a need for change they wouldnt be kicking AR around. Remember PEAT, the DNR doesnt manage for "trophies". The DNR sees there is an issue and they are going to put regs in to help the situation. I know you could care less about anything reguarding biology because it gets in the way of your traditions, but regs are coming. You shooting or not shooting a basket rack at this point is an individual decision. The DNR putting regs in to help the age structure of the MN deer herd is biological.

[james_walleye]

What you are missing PEAT is that half the hunters polled would like to see more mature bucks, but that doesnt mean they are letting young bucks walk. I know people that would love to see more mature bucks while in the woods, but they still shoot the first antler that comes by.

And no one here is forcing anything on you. The subject of AR has come up a couple of times and people have offered up opinions. The DNR is following the lead of a couple other states who have successfully implemented AR and might just do the same. You might as well buddy up to the fact that change is coming, not because i want it, or anyone on here wants it, but because the DNR sees need for change.

[PEATMOSS]

IMHO, the DNR is reacting to a vocal group, based mostly down in the SE part of the state. As this movement gets closer to reality, I think you're going to see alot of folks that have been sitting on their hands stand up and be heard. This may well be the direction we are going, but I for one am going down kicking and screaming. I'm doing more than pee and moan on the internet, and I think others will too.

Da fat lady hasn't sung yet.

BTW, I'm still waiting for any of you folks to answer the question, if so many folks REALLY want this, then why would we need to change the laws?