Why change party hunting laws?

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

If it comes down to money then people should take a look at what venison truly costs per pound. It's much cheaper to run to your local grocery store.

I'm about as tired of this quote as you guys are of the outdoor news quote

It does not have to be expensive to hunt deer!!!!!!!

The first year I ever hunted I bought a license, an orange vest, 2 boxes of rifled slugs to shoot out of a borrowed gun and thats about it. I don't think I could go into the SuperValu and pick up very much meat for what was spent there.

Just because some choose to outfit themselves with the latest hunting gear because someone on a hunting show told them to, does not mean that you have to have this stuff to shoot a deer in Minnesota.

[chub]

I always get a kick out of that statement too.

Aside from a license, where does all the expense come from?

Bueller??????......Bueller??????.......Bueller??????

Firearm can be a $5000.00 custom Weatherby, or Grandpa's old hand me down 30/30.

Clothing can be as simple as a blaze orange zip up to go over existing clothes.

Ammo, unless your into the "recon by fire" method, is minimal.

Processing, one can do that for free if you have a knife and basic motor skills.

Point is, you can spend as much as you want, or as little as you have to.

[Bear55]

What is interesting is the non QDM guys have thing 100% in their favor now and they aren't willing to sacrifice anything. The QDM crowd has been making sacrifices for years while getting nothing back. Like someone else said, if you look at Pickelfarmers poll, you have to think that there is a real possiblity that half the state is ready for change. We are not the "vocal minority" that so many think we are and I would be willing to bet change will be coming some time in our near future.

[96trigger]

Wow, I go to one wrestling tourney and this place lights up like wild fire. Good discussions, I have enjoyed reading them. I have agreed and disagreed with both sides at times. I am amazed that after 13 pages it has managed to stay civil, that is a great credit to both sides.

[Getanet]

Just a couple of points. First, you can draw absolutely zero conclusions from Pickelfarmers poll. This is a popular website, but it is a very small, very select group of "vocal" outdoor enthusiasts compared to the overall hunting population. I won't even get into the faulty assumptions people are making based on his question.

Secondly, "non QDM guys have thing 100% in their favor now..." It's not like we unfavorably won a tug of war and wrote the rule book yesterday. These are the rules and regulations the DNR has set for our state. Presumably they have a little better idea of how to manage the deer population then any of us do. I realize that is a big assumption to make.

[Getanet]

And one last thing, I would be very interested to know what percentage of QDM guys hunt private land. I'm guessing the percentage is pretty high.

[CSTPETER]

Dave 2, I highly doubt that the meat hunters are the only ones that really appreciate the game. This is a crock. If you're in it for the meat and think it's just fine to shoot 3 or 4 dumb little bucks a season, so be it, but don't try to tell me that you really consider it a rewarding experience year after year. Besides you can still be all for QDM and a meat hunter...just shoot does.

[chub]

Dave 2, I highly doubt that the meat hunters are the only ones that really appreciate the game. This is a crock. If you're in it for the meat and think it's just fine to shoot 3 or 4 dumb little bucks a season, so be it, but don't try to tell me that you really consider it a rewarding experience year after year. Besides you can still be all for QDM and a meat hunter...just shoot does.

That's all fine and dandy if your in an area that you can shoot does.

[Big Dave2]

Dave 2, I highly doubt that the meat hunters are the only ones that really appreciate the game. This is a crock. If you're in it for the meat and think it's just fine to shoot 3 or 4 dumb little bucks a season, so be it, but don't try to tell me that you really consider it a rewarding experience year after year. Besides you can still be all for QDM and a meat hunter...just shoot does.

The highlighted portion of your quote proves my point. How can you tell me that you appreciate any deer in the woods when you consider small racked animals as "dumb"?

[Big Dave2]

Dave 2, I highly doubt that the meat hunters are the only ones that really appreciate the game. This is a crock. If you're in it for the meat and think it's just fine to shoot 3 or 4 dumb little bucks a season, so be it, but don't try to tell me that you really consider it a rewarding experience year after year. Besides you can still be all for QDM and a meat hunter...just shoot does.

Actually, I find harvesting my families food with my own 2 hands and processing this food with my own 2 hands to be one of the most rewarding experiences I can think of.

What I don't find rewarding is going grocery shopping

[Bear55]

Just a couple of points. First, you can draw absolutely zero conclusions from Pickelfarmers poll. This is a popular website, but it is a very small, very select group of "vocal" outdoor enthusiasts compared to the overall hunting population. I won't even get into the faulty assumptions people are making based on his question.

No doubt the poll numbers can be taken with a grain of salt but I bring it up as a point of interest. Many like to call us QDM guys the vocal minority but our numbers are growing every year and there might be more of us than anyone cares to admit.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: CSTPETER

dumb little bucks

The highlighted portion of your quote proves my point. How can you tell me that you appreciate any deer in the woods when you consider small racked animals as "dumb"?

BD2

Would you call a teenager dump when comparing them to a Harvard professor? Probably, the same goes for deer. Its pretty well knows that 1.5 year old bucks are more curious than cautious. They are basically young dumb teenagers who make a lot of mistakes. Just because we call them what they are doesn't mean we don't appreciate the animal itself.

[B. Amish]

I agree with that. I don't care to shoot young bucks, but some of my foundest memories while hunting are of young bucks.

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

Originally Posted By: CSTPETER

dumb little bucks

The highlighted portion of your quote proves my point. How can you tell me that you appreciate any deer in the woods when you consider small racked animals as "dumb"?

BD2

Would you call a teenager dump when comparing them to a Harvard professor? Probably, the same goes for deer. Its pretty well knows that 1.5 year old bucks are more curious than cautious. They are basically young dumb teenagers who make a lot of mistakes. Just because we call them what they are doesn't mean we don't appreciate the animal itself.

I would use the term "inexperienced"

I have an 8 year old son. He does not know as much about life as you or i but would I call him "dumb"? NO!!!

I appreciate him too much to call him dumb.

[archerystud]

BD2,

Did you read my entire post? In 15 years I've taken 12 does. I must only hunt for antlers...

Would you even hunt if deer did not grow antlers? I would.

[CSTPETER]

Call them whatever you want...They are easy to kill most any time of year.

BD2- I also get a lot of satisfaction from processing my own meat for my family. That in my mind is a different part of the hunting experience. The reward I'm talking about here is the thrill of the hunt and being satisfied with that Man vs. Nature encounter. I tend to believe that regardless of how much we want to feel the heart pounding excitement of our first deer, over the years and as you progress as a hunter you need a more challenging experience. In my mind there is no smarter animal in the world than a mature Whitetail buck. I hope this is a puzzle I will never solve completely.

[CodyDawg]

so i got to thinking about numbers. there was a point made about what if you are in an area that doesnt allow does to be shot and you are of the brown-is-down crowd. Well, what part of the state is like that? 25%? I dont have time to look it up, but lets use that number. Assuming that half of the hunters want bigger bucks (DNR data) then 12.5% of the hunters are left. Of those 12.5%, how many are casual hunters or just dont care much one way or the other? Dunno, but certainly some, lets reduce by 2.5%. Of the 10% or so left, how many of them are going to not have opportunities under proposed changes? I would say well less than half, but lets just use half. We are now at 5% or less of the hunters in the state that would POTENTIALLY be not be able to shoot a second buck whose sole purpose for being out there is to stockpile meat. Talk about minorities.

Now look at it another way. 50% of hunters right off the bat would love to see some type of changes. Of the remaining 50%, I would assume that some would change their minds (my cousin did, much to my surprise as he was as adament as the rest of you until he shot a couple nice bucks). Many people fear change until they try it and realize they like the new change. I dont know the number, lets say a third of the remaining 50% or another 17% to the "QDM" side. So by my assumptions, we have 67% that will like this rule change and 5% that will be affected. Now I realize that these numbers are my opinion, everyone is certainly free to tweak them to their opinions, but it is pretty dramatic, isnt it? Just another way of looking at it.

[Big Dave2]

BD2,

Did you read my entire post? In 15 years I've taken 12 does. I must only hunt for antlers...

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

Would you even hunt if deer did not grow antlers? I would.

Originally Posted By: archerystud

I myself also like venison and have also found a way to supplement by finding doe areas in the TC and helping to control the population. So even in that 15 years I've always had at least one in the freezer. So yes I like the meat as well and it does not go to waste in my house either

All I am trying to say is that there are 2 different types of hunters. I personally don't feel the need to thump my chest and try to outdo last years deer or my buddies deer. That's not what I am in it for. I enjoy the hunt no matter what I shoot or even if I don't shoot anything.

I would still feel the same way about deer hunting even if deer stopped growing antlers. It's the same way that I feel about pheasant or grouse hunting. I don't feel the need to shoot BIGGER pheasants. Nor do I pass on a squirrel because there may be a larger more prestigious squirrel lurking somewhere in the trees. I just don't feel the need to measure my success in antler inches.

I will tell you right now that I am not the person you need to preach your values to. If these laws come to pass I will probably not have the time, energy, or inclination to stand outside the state capital and shake my fist in the air or carry a sign. I just won't care that much. I will either adapt or become extinct like everything else.

But if you are successful and these laws do come to pass, and lets say it even helps you to shoot larger antlered deer, who have you outwitted? The deer or legislators?

[Bear55]

But if you are successful and these laws do come to pass, and lets say it even helps you to shoot larger antlered deer, who have you outwitted? The deer or legislators?

As opposed to the meat hunters who want the DNR/legislature to keep the laws as is so the deer population is very large and very young. Now they can easily shoot many deer, then repeat the process year after year.

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

But if you are successful and these laws do come to pass, and lets say it even helps you to shoot larger antlered deer, who have you outwitted? The deer or legislators?

As opposed to the meat hunters who want the DNR/legislature to keep the laws as is so the deer population is very large and very young. Now they can easily shoot many deer, then repeat the process year after year.

You are correct.

I have never stated that I personally am a great hunter, slipping through the woods to outwit a worthy adversary. I will just harvest if I am able.

[ChrisT]

I don't doubt anyone's passion that is on this site because we are obvously interested in our sport, but the way I look at it is I bow hunt for the big boy and when gun season comes around it is time to fill my freezer. There is ten people that I hunt with in my family for gun season, and most would not be able to hunt if it were not for party hunting. There are not enough spots to go set up. I am sure there are many more people in the same boat. I think you would see a huge decline in liscense sales if you got rid of party hunting and the DNR can't afford that.

[Bear55]

ChrisT we are only suggesting eliminating party hunting for bucks. You could still party hunt for does and fill your freezer. I also can't imagine sitting around and waiting my turn to hunt, you guys might have to branch out and expand your territory.

[DaveT]

Or reduce the size of your party. If your property can't support 10 hunters, how can it support 10 bucks?

[Rippinlip]

Where is the DNR standing in all of this conversation?

I understand both sides to this subject, but you may have to ask yourself about the DNR. We all have our points and views, but lets get this baby into the DNR and voice some thoughts there and move on.

I have been pursuaded from one side to the other in this subject. I am for no party hunting or cross tagging for bucks only. This I think is going to be the least impacted rule that still may give everyone what they want, or atleast a start.

[Bowfin]

I'm just curious if your view in this debate is influenced by where in the State you hunt - i.e. northern Minnesota "Big Woods" or Southern/western Minnesota Agriculture/smaller woodlots.

I have done probably 80% of my deer hunting north of State Hwy #2 on large tracts of public land. I have relatively less pressure from other hunters than those hunting public land farther south in the State. The deer have thousands of acres of cover. Some years its hard to get a deer because of the cover. However, with decades of indescriminate buck hunting there are always nice bucks in the area to hunt. I see their sign and find their sheds. Are they behind every tree - no - but they are out there. There is just too much area and cover to keep ALL the big bucks from reaching maturity.

It is tough hunting some years and I want to have the choice of what deer I shoot.

I wonder if I'd feel differently if I was limited to 40 acres in central or southern Minnesota Ag land where deer might not have as much cover and where you could be pretty efficient in harvesting bucks and possibly keep the buck herd young.

Also my my view of what constitutes a big buck may not match others. I have never shot a P&Y class although I have found their sheds. I am perfectly happy shooting that doe or small buck as long as I know I will get a crack at that nice 8 or 10 every couple years or so and as long as I know there is a big bruiser out there.

[archerystud]

But if you are successful and these laws do come to pass, and lets say it even helps you to shoot larger antlered deer, who have you outwitted? The deer or legislators?

Neither really. I'd like to get a little better value for my money. At my current rate of shooting and amount of taxes I pay it would be nice to shoot at something more than once every 15 years. At my current tax rate on my land that comes out to $18000/shot. Is it too much for me to ask to lower my cost/shot ratio?

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

But if you are successful and these laws do come to pass, and lets say it even helps you to shoot larger antlered deer, who have you outwitted? The deer or legislators?

Neither really. I'd like to get a little better value for my money. At my current rate of shooting and amount of taxes I pay it would be nice to shoot at something more than once every 15 years. At my current tax rate on my land that comes out to $18000/shot. Is it too much for me to ask to lower my cost/shot ratio?

Yes, I don't believe there is a role in government reducing your cost/shot ratio.

Everything you do is your choice.

You chose to purchase the land.

You choose to shoot or not shoot the deer on your property. That is your choice.

The state of Minnesota does not OWE you large deer just because you bought recreational land.

[Rippinlip]

I do hunt in southern Minn.

I hunt probably about 70% private / 30% public.

Most of the areas I hunt are less than 40 acres, probably average less than 10.

I do pass on several deer a year to see them get harvested in the next piece of woods. That is the way it is now, I have no problem with that, would I like to see some of the littlier guys grow, sure..

Not at the expense of tradition or others.

I just think no Party hunting for bucks ONLY would maybe save a youngen or two.....

Mark

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I'm just curious if your view in this debate is influenced by where in the State you hunt - i.e. northern Minnesota "Big Woods" or Southern/western Minnesota Agriculture/smaller woodlots.

I believe this is the biggest influence in opinions! I'm with you Bowfin.... up in the big woods, you're fortunate to see a deer long enough to get off an ethical shot.... when it comes to that, it don't matter how big it's antlers are!

And to quote Mr. Gump..... That's all I have to say about that!

[Deep]

Where is it going to stop, it would be nice for a year or 2 to get to use the same regulations.

So if every one is shooting 150" class deer what the heck is the next step?

I do most of my deer hunting up by Grand Rapids in the "big woods" but the reason I go up there is because of tradition, it's been going on in my family for 55 years, Yes we are meat hunters, but is't that what hunting is about eating what you have harvested? I don't know of any one of my uncles or grandpa that had the antlers score, and some VERY nice bucks have came from that area.

Enough trying to tell people what you want, If you don't want to shoot a small buck,doe or fawn, so be it. If I'm going to feed my family with it let me eat in peace.