Why change party hunting laws?

[RuttenBuck]

Quote:

To those that say people who like to hunt mature whitetails should just go hunt on a game farm to shoot their trophy....... I say if you NEED venison bad enough that you NEED to party hunt bucks, why don't YOU go hunt on those game farms? Then you are guaranteed to fill your freezer every single season.

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to do this. My point is that a statement like that is absolutely ridiculous (and slightly offensive to someone like myself who enjoys the challenge of hunting big bucks and would like to see a more balanced herd.) Us “Trophy Hunters”, despite what some think, do not hunt for the sole purpose of putting a set of antlers on the wall. We hunt because we relish the challenge of pursuing a mature buck, on his home turf, and on his terms.

There are MORE than enough opportunities in this state to fill your freezer with venison (without party hunting bucks) between bow season, early anterless, rifle, and muzzleloader season. Not to mention all of the bonus doe tags that are available to party hunt with, in many zones. I don’t quite understand how so many people would be so upset about a rule that would still allow them to shoot whatever they want, yet increase the chance that they, or their kids, will harvest a nice, mature buck someday. Obviously this rule should not apply in lottery areas……

My prediction…….we will see this regulation change in the next 5 years, so get used to the idea.

BTW I have not shot a buck in 12 years (and I am 25 years old). Very rarely have I failed to put a doe in the freezer, though. I hunt all public land in the northern part of the state.

Excellent post NoWiser. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[buckhunter21]

Im not sure i agree with you Getanet why would you say your area doesnt have resources to produce big bucks. I think the most important thing you can do to produce big bucks is give them time to grow. Most deer will grow trophy racks by 3.5 to 4.5 years old. Yea your still going to see spikes and forks because those will be those larger bucks offspring your not just going to start seeing only large bucks. I see your location is by the citys I will agree with you that it would be alot more difficult to produce more large bucks but i think it is very possible if people give them a chance to get that big.

[Neighbor_guy]

.... I might be off the subject a little on this but just my opinion. I think The people that argue this and say they are meat hunters should just go and buy A 1/2 or Full beef cow, In the end if you are just hunting for the meat I would be willing to guess the price would be just as cheap once you figure out what it cost to hunt. Liscense,Clothes,Gas,days off et......

I am lucky enough to say that I have not purchased a single pound of ground beef, beef roast, or beef steak since 1997. If I want red meat for home cooking, it is Venison. If I want beef, I will go to a steak house.

My family runs on Venison. It is better tasting, and better for you than beef or pork everyday of the week and twice on sunday (love that big family dinner ). If hunting were outlawed tomarow, there would be a lot of "roadkill" with no backstraps, especialy in the winter. And I am fairly certain that night hunting would become very popular again if you know what I am saying.

[lakevet]

There are many of us out here who are either trying or have given up trying to grow bigger bucks on our own. Maybe we control 80 acres that we plant food plots on, maybe we just pass up every little buck we see waiting for a big one. Nobody would argue that it is our right to not shoot that little buck, am I right? All we want is to see a few of those little bucks survive to next year. Right now 9 out of 10 yearling bucks get killed every fall. By eliminating the party hunting, we would see that number go to 6 or 7 out of 10. We get our pleasure from seeing our hard work and sacrifice pay off for us, when 1 neighbor sets you back 3 years by killing 3 or 4 yearling bucks by himself, that puts a huge dent in our effort and attitude. Why should a guy who puts in all the time, work, sweat and money to try to grow and protect some deer bother? Right now all of his effort goes down the drain when his neighbor shoots everything in sight.

There is a sense of entitlement amongst some that amazes me.

DaveT

First I want to say I'm glad you have a passion for the hunt. Deer need people like you. But when reading your post I see the words "GROW bigger bucks", "CONTROL 80 acres" "put in all the TIME, WORK, SWEAT and MONEY to try to GROW and PROTECT some deer". Are you hunting wild deer or using time, work, sweat and money to grow, control (at least partially), and protect (and eventually shoot) your deer. If you feel cheated out of your investment/property by your neighbor doing what is legal at present on his own property is that being a fair chase hunter or a farmer upset about the neighbor shooting his livestock when it gets out onto the neighbors property? I agree that all of us feel a sense of entitlement towards whitetail deer. We should as they belong to all of us (public property thank god, not just the king's or the wealthy). It gives me hope that people care that much about deer hunting. I hope your neighbor will connect the dots and let more little bucks walk, and harvests does more for meat. And eventually shoot a book buck. Nothing would convince him more than his own success. I hope the season comes when you are in agreement and can be happy when the guy on the other side of the fence shoots the big buck, cuz you know he would be happy if you had shot it.. Party hunting isn't the issue. One could, by themselves, shoot 5 button bucks in much of the state last year. Many still are trained to think shooting does is going to hurt the herd. They are stuck in the 70's and 80's. When Minnesota was the #1 big buck factory the vast majority of hunters shot the first deer they saw. Mainly for meat. Preferably one that tastes good. Party hunting legal (what is post originally is about). No mega rack growing systems. None of the multimillion dollar effort to grow, control, protect big bucks. No QDM. It came naturally cause we have the best genetics in the US in Minnesota. All they need is a chance to get mature. Talk to biologists and all Minnesota bucks need to get into the "book" is to get old enough. When the emphasis was on meat, we were #1 in book buck and deer numbers dropped. Now the emphasis is on getting big bucks, we got record numbers of "meat" deer. We need to stay in the middle of the road. Hope I didn't offend.

lakevet

[archerystud]

NO CHANGES

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DAD KILLS HIS DEER,BUT KIDS HAVEN'T YET?IF THEY ARE UNDER 14 THEN THEY CAN'T LEGALLY HUNT WITHOUT AN ADULT

Page 36 of this years regs states that a 12 or 13 year old must be accompanied by a parent or legal guardian. It does NOT state that the parent or legal guardian must have a valid tag. Kid can still hunt, they just must be accompanied with someone.

[alwaysonthemove]

when 1 neighbor sets you back 3 years by killing 3 or 4 yearling bucks by himself, that puts a huge dent in our effort and attitude. Why should a guy who puts in all the time, work, sweat and money to try to grow and protect some deer bother? Right now all of his effort goes down the drain when his neighbor shoots everything in sight.

There is a sense of entitlement amongst some that amazes me.

Maybe you should spend your money on a box of beer and your time with your neigbor might be a wise choice!

[archerystud]

Get rid of party hunting or do something to improve the age of the bucks in this state.

For those that say there are big bucks out there and you just need to get out and find them. I will say you can get all the venison you want, if you pick up a bow and head to the metro area.

I was in the minority 10 years ago but the times are changing. As somone said in an earlier post, get used to it.

[lakevet]

DaveT,

Iowa only reads half your tag line "How can you grow trophies in a state with party hunting and a firearms season during the peak of the rut? YOU CAN'T", they have the tag line "How can you grow trophies in a state with a firearms season during the peak of the rut?" Followed by "You CAN grow trophy bucks with firearms party hunting." I strongly agree with you on the rut part. Let the big boy breed and pass his genetics on one last year. Then whack him if you can. Would also like less pressure from firearms seasons by going back to the pick one firearms season. No camping out on one buck from early november to the middle of december (northern mn with 16 day rifle then 5 days off then 16 days muzzleloader) using weapons that shoot 125yds or more. Iowa doesn't allow it. We are wasting energy on banning party hunting. It won't have the desired effect. Focus on getting the season off the rut if you want to save bucks. Who is dumber than a mature buck in rut? Its a young buck filled with testosterone getting his first time whiff of a doe in season! Then he gets whacked when it turns out its from a "doe in a bottle".

lakevet

[buckhunter21]

lakevet, I agree with you 100%. The first and probably easiest step would be to take pressure off these deer during the rut. People would still get their days to go out and get meat and at the same time we help make some nicer bucks. I know this will get some people fired up but what about a points restriction too? I know there in the talking process on the subject now its just whether or not they agree to go through with it. I think either one or both of these combined would help over getting rid of party hunting.

[reddog]

My deer hunting now consists of a two man party,( hunting partner in Iowa, and my father in law in Minnesota) but,Ive been involved in alot of different situations involving party hunting over the last 35 years or so. Ive always made it clear up front to the other participants that at no time during that hunt is my tag available to be used whether that is the first 10 minutes or the last ten minutes. If I dont shoot my deer, thats fine with me, but I dont want anyone filling my license for me. It has to do with several things, but for the most part, I want to shoot my deer the way that I want to hunt. Spot and stalk. Because I take care of my own meat, I'm also very particular about shot placement, which I can be in my situation. I'm not interested in a deer drive and I'm not patient enough to sit and wait.

Its a choice, just because you can party hunt, doesnt mean that you have to.

[Jim916]

I agre with reddog, we party hunt but my tag does not get used unless I shoot it. Other people do not care and want the meat.

People are also forgetting that each part of the state is different. We hunt 3A and we can only shoot bucks. I do let the small ones walk but sometimes when it gets down to it if I want some venison I need to shoot a small buck.

Forget about the part hunting change and try to get the season changed to start after the rut if you want to see bigger bucks.

I know some people do not like hearing this but there are big bucks out there, you just need to work for them. I do not get out as much as I like, but I have 2 friends who hunt all the time. They both shoot big bucks almost every year.

[ChrisT]

Just because you stop party hunting doesn't mean you will get bigger bucks. What you should be pushing for is something like a 4pt side reg.

[NoWiser]

buckhunter21 - I agree with you in that a later season and point restrictions would be more effective than the party hunting change. I don't think either of those two changes (especially point restrictions) would fly in this state. While I wouldn't complain about those changes, it just doesn't seem right to limit hunters to only shooting a buck over so many points. We all buy licenses, and nobody owns the deer. If someone wants to shoot a spike the first day and fill their freezer, there is nothing wrong with it, that should be their choice.

I like to think most people really want the opportunity to shoot a big buck. If party hunting for them was eliminated, (and they are law abiding)they would know that the first buck they shoot would also be their last. The result of this might be the guy who shoots 3 or 4 spikes for his party will all of a sudden let all small bucks go, so come the last day, he still has a chance at Mr. Big. Obviously the hunter who just wants meat will still plug a spike on day 1 (and there is nothing wrong with that), but that is where it will end. If he (or she) wants more meat, it will have to be does from there on out.

I could be wrong, but I think it would save more little bucks than you think..........

[Bear55]

I also would need more evidence to change my mind. In the area I hunt there just isn't the resources needed to consistently grow big bucks. You could ban hunting for 5 years there and all you'd have is a bunch of spikes, forks and such running around with scraggly racks.

Getanet I would bet just about anything if you area was not hunted for 5 years you would have a few nice bucks around. The key is you need a large area to be successfull. When guys see and shoot nothing but spikes and forks for 30 years they think that is all the area can produce. I would bet if you trapped one of those spikes or forks from your area and put them in a 80 acre pen and watch them grow for a few years you would be amazed.

If you need any proof here it is.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/11828456.html

http://www.hillviewmanagement.com/

[Whisker Trout Slayer]

Is it true that in Iowa, you can take 2 bucks per person?

In Iowa yes. Your bow tag is an either sex tag. During shotgun season your tag is an either sex tag. Actually if you party hunt and say you have 10 people in your group and have no bonus tags or landowner tags, a person in your group can shoot and fill all of the tags with bucks. As long as their are the appropriate tags are left in the group you can still shoot deer. Not saying that it will or does happen, the prevous was just an example. Our group last year had 24 tags available and filled 22. Out of the 22 9 were bucks, with 2 that are going on the wall. The other deer were does or button bucks, which fullfilled the tagging requirements of the bonus doe tags.

Is that only for residents? I do not know much info on Non resident tags, but if you hunt in our group you can shoot as many deer as you want as long as there are tags left to be put on the animal.

If this fact is true are the antlered animals taking a beating? No I don't think the number of antlered deer are taking a beating. I think in my area for sure that the numbers are down, but in Northeast Iowa I couldn't tell you where the numbers are at. During all of the combined deer seasons there was just over 6,000 deer shot in Clayton county alone, where my county only 300 some deer were taken. That is due to the terrain and habitat available. The biggest problem I see with controling the deer heard population is all the presure Farm Bureau and insrance agencies put on the legislators, they rather see all of the deer dead.

I did not know anything about season dates of deer hunting in Minnesota until I read a post on here. Gun season is during the rut? I think that is the problem right there. The deer especially the bucks are more vulnerable as their guard is down and only have one thing on their mind.

[DaveT]

Personally I would love to see the gun season moved out of the rut, no party hunting, no muzzy season unless they go back to the flintlocks, and a half a dozen other things. However, I was told that 30 % of the buck harvest in this state is cross tagged bucks. If we harvest 100,000 bucks in a normal year, that's 30,000 yearlings that make it to their 2nd birthday. I do believe that would make a huge difference, and not necessitate any further changes. I believe that those of us who want change deserve to have our opinions heard and considered by the powers that be. I must admit that I would like a few more days to hunt the rut with my bow before the woods turn blaze orange, that is probably selfish, but it is the main reason I leave this state when I do. I can go to 1 of 4 different states and hunt the rut in relative peace, where the deer are not completely nocturnal or running from somebody else. Now we have this early doe hunt in the metro, and the deer are put on full alert before the rut even starts. In the metro area, there was a gun season of some kind open for over 50 days. The DNR has ruined my hunting by trying to be everything to everybody, and increase revenue through extra seasons and tags. The end result is a lot of dissapointed hunters who didn't enjoy their hunts as much as they used to. If the harvest is top ten, but we hunted twice as long to achieve that harvest, is that really a success? We have more and longer seasons than ever, with more accurate and powerful weapons to use. Of course we can keep our harvest rates up, but I would like to know how many hunter hours per deer we had 5 years ago vs. last year. By increasing opportunity, they have decreased the value of the hunt and the deer.

[MOSSY]

a trophy in my eyes is any deer that is taken leagally and ethically I can see many of you have a lot more time than I do.

If my kids (all 4 of them) have the opportunity to take a deer I think that is great. My wife and myself don't mind putting our tags on the deer they shoot. I would rather they shot all of our deer.Some people don't have the luxury of multiple tags and have to shoot bucks if they don't get drawn for an antlerless tag.

[reddog]

Is it just me, or is there something about party hunting the archery season or the muzzleloader seasons, that just dont seem right. Again, its my opinion only, and as a non resident, I'm sure it doesnt hold any value, but those types of hunts traditionally have been more solitary.

Again, I reiterate, that Iowa has party hunting for the shotgun seasons only, not the archery or muzzleloader, and it seems to work out well here.

[archerystud]

If you are going to get rid of party hunting abolish it for every season/weapon.

Two years ago I shot my buck (a 3.5 year old)on the first night out with the bow. I did party hunt with my dad but didn't shoot anymore deer.

However if there was no party hunting, I would have still went out, although I would have been armed with some sort of camera instead of a lethal weapon.

[Bowfin]

The DNR has ruined my hunting by trying to be everything to everybody, and increase revenue through extra seasons and tags. The end result is a lot of dissapointed hunters who didn't enjoy their hunts as much as they used to. If the harvest is top ten, but we hunted twice as long to achieve that harvest, is that really a success? We have more and longer seasons than ever, with more accurate and powerful weapons to use. Of course we can keep our harvest rates up, but I would like to know how many hunter hours per deer we had 5 years ago vs. last year. By increasing opportunity, they have decreased the value of the hunt and the deer.

What? I had a great time last year even though I went deerless in both the Wisconsin and Minnesota seasons. I would say those who like the hunting experience and not just the shooting experience don't mind spending a lot of time in the woods to try to figure out and shoot a buck. I think we've been watching too many hunting videos and want the whole State of Minnesota be full of food plots with a half dozen protected bucks in them during broad daylight so we can decide which one is a "shooter".

As far as hours hunted per deer, I think back to the early 80's sitting in northern Minnesota - if you hunted hard all week you may have see 3-4 deer and might have gotten a shot at one. We would then go home having had a great time waiting for next year to come.

We have more deer now than we ever have historically - let's enjoy that.

[Getanet]

"We have more deer now than we ever have historically - let's enjoy that."

Great point Bowfin. I was listening to Fan Outdoors on KFAN last night and the DNR rep mentioned that in MN we harvest more geese than any state in the country. Yet the approval rating in MN among goose hunters is 60%.

I know that's off topic for this thread, but the point is we're never satisfied and rarely stop to think how good we have it.

Human nature I guess...

[CodyDawg]

There are a lot of things that could be done to help bucks mature. Among the folks that dont want change....lets assume you HAVE to pick one of these, which one would you pick (ie find LEAST objectionable)?

Eliminate party hunting

Move the firearm hunt out of the rut

antler point restrictions

Buck license restrictions (ie draw a buck tag)

any other ideas?

I think it would be good to know which idea is the least objectionable to the folks who DONT want change. And conversely, which is the most objectionable.

[Big Dave2]

There are a lot of things that could be done to help bucks mature. Among the folks that dont want change....lets assume you HAVE to pick one of these, which one would you pick (ie find LEAST objectionable)?

Eliminate party hunting

Move the firearm hunt out of the rut

antler point restrictions

Buck license restrictions (ie draw a buck tag)

any other ideas?

I think it would be good to know which idea is the least objectionable to the folks who DONT want change. And conversely, which is the most objectionable.

If I HAD to choose between the above restrictions, I would say that moving the season out of the rut would be the least objectionable to me. This does not take away opportunities, it just delays them.

Most objectionable would probably be antler restrictions.

[lakevet]

There are a lot of things that could be done to help bucks mature. Among the folks that dont want change....lets assume you HAVE to pick one of these, which one would you pick (ie find LEAST objectionable)?

Eliminate party hunting

Move the firearm hunt out of the rut

antler point restrictions

Buck license restrictions (ie draw a buck tag)

any other ideas?

I think it would be good to know which idea is the least objectionable to the folks who DONT want change. And conversely, which is the most objectionable.

Least objectionable move firearm hunt out of the rut

Most objectionable eliminate party hunting

Moving the firearms back would be returning it to where it originally was back in the 1940's 50's 60's.

Good approach to the discussion CodyDawg!

lakevet

[Getanet]

I chose "any other ideas?" Just kidding. Moving the hunt out of the rut is least objectionable. Most objectionable is eliminating party hunting.

I think you'd have a revolt on your hands if you tried to make it a "draw a buck tag" situation.

I also disagree with those who feel the regulations regarding shooting bucks will change in the short term. I think there are two big issues working against it 1) The Insurance lobby 2) License fees (I don't think the DNR would do anything to discourage people from hunting - and putting restrictions on what people can hunt would discourage some).

[Bear55]

Not to sound too much like an a$$ but why do we have to baby the people that might quit hunting if there is any little change to the regs. If you love to deer hunt you will do it no matter what. Now I understand that the DNR would never want to promote a mass exidous of deer hunters but if a few regulation changes keep you on the couch you probably won't be out hunting 5-10 years down the road anyway.

[Neighbor_guy]

Because the entire focus of our deer season is to Eliminate as many deer as possible. The only worry the dnr seems to have is how many deer are shot. What size deer doesn't seem to matter,

a 140" deer counts the same as an 8" deer (1).

If they move regular firearms out of the rut, less deer will be killed, numbers will go down, hunters will bail, and revinue will reflect it. It all boils down to the almighty $$$$$. Less deer hunters mean less cash to play with.

We live and hunt here. Play the hand you are delt, if you dont like it, toss in your cards, pick up your chips, and step away from the table. WI, IA, ND, SD, WY, KS, or any of the provinces will be happy to take your money......

Starting to sound like a bunch of whinners and cry baby's around here......

[Getanet]

I agree Bear, but some of the changes people would like to see to promote bigger bucks aren't "little" changes. As this thread has shown, party hunting is a tradition for many. Going "draw a buck" or implementing antler point restrictions are pretty large changes.

[MOSSY]

why should the majority of hunters have to comply with the minority.I believe most hunters in this state like the seasons as they are. moving the season back would eliminate a lot of kids,elderly and females from the ranks because of the cold.

maybe that is what you would like. not me

[Big Dave2]

Not to sound too much like an a$$ but why do we have to baby the people that might quit hunting if there is any little change to the regs. If you love to deer hunt you will do it no matter what. Now I understand that the DNR would never want to promote a mass exidous of deer hunters but if a few regulation changes keep you on the couch you probably won't be out hunting 5-10 years down the road anyway.

Why do we have to baby the people that want changes? Will you quit hunting if we leave it the way it is?