Why change party hunting laws?

[Rippinlip]

For those that want us to manage for trophies, who is going to determine what a "trophy" is?

Is it a "150" or bigger? How long would it take for anyone to shoot a buck in a heavily populated area with traffic kills, lack of good food sources? How about the bucks that would never reach the potential of "trophy" status?

This just gets back to personal judgement. I think there is enough laws out there already, to me lesser laws make a hunting trip better.

Until I can own lots of acreage where I can decide what is harvested and when I am plenty happy taking what I can when I can.

[BobT]

I don’t mind that someone chooses to be more or less selective than me. That’s their choice but when we expect the powers that be to manage the deer herd specifically to satisfy the desires of a select few, that’s when I begin to think we’re getting a little self-serving.

That isn’t to say that we shouldn’t express our views and campaign for change in attitude. In fact, I say go for it and I hope you're successful but when we begin to push to pass laws strictly for the purpose of satisfying one entity’s preference then we are going too far. In fact, when we do that have we not become one of those dreaded “special interest groups” we hear so much about?

From my perspective, I’d rather our deer herd be managed for quantity before quality as I actually prefer a younger, more succulent specimen. But that's me and like I said, I’m after the meat first. That isn’t to say that I wouldn’t enjoy the attention I’d get by bringing home a trophy deer and that happens for us too. They are out there. I just don’t think it would be any more fair for me to lobby for laws that satisfy my preference any more than I think it is fair for others to do the same.

Let the DNR, whom we hired to do the job, manage the herd to the best of their ability without forcing their hand through legislative law. We complain on one hand about the legislature managing our game animals and on the other hand we’re jumping on a bandwagon asking them to do exactly that.

It seems like we need to get our own priorities in order.

Even if laws were passed outlawing party hunting for bucks or any deer for that matter, how could that possibly be enforced? Where I hunt the CO would have to be right there when the deer was taken in order to know who shot it vs. who tagged it. It's a law that would be a waste of effort.

Bob

[reddog]

Let me be the first to dispell the myth that Iowa is overun with deer.

They have decimated our herd in the NW corner of the state. or at least in my home area, which is the Iowa Great Lakes. Acres upon acres of state land, with very little to hunt, whether its birds or deer. Bitter, you bet.

The legislature has taken the management out of the DNRs control. Deer populations are controlled by the insurance companies and the Farm Bureau.

Sorry for the rant.

Back to the topic at hand. Party hunting, Which I dont have to worry about anymore, unless youre talking about the party we have instead of deer hunting.

[DaveT]

I want less legislation too. Remove the current law that allows party hunting.

[B K'S DAD]

The party hunting laws isn't the problem all the years of Buck only was and is the problem. If you are a meat hunter a you have a buck tag you wait for a you shoot a buck.

[Bear55]

Even if laws were passed outlawing party hunting for bucks or any deer for that matter, how could that possibly be enforced? Where I hunt the CO would have to be right there when the deer was taken in order to know who shot it vs. who tagged it. It's a law that would be a waste of effort.

So should we take all the poaching laws off the books? Most of the time the CO's need to be there or need someone to turn them in or slip up to catch them. Its a lame excuse not to have a law because they are difficult to enforce.

[lakevet]

Years ago when Minnesota was #1 things were different. Just look at the pictures. Typically smiling groups of party hunting people with a mix of deer including THE BIG ONE and smaller bucks does and fawns. Weapons were rifles and shotguns usually without scopes, just open sights. Bows were long bows or recurves. No camo, no scent blocker suits, no heaters, no box stands, no portable stands, no deer grunts bleats etc, no scents, no 4 wheelers, no GPS, no food plots in the background, no shooting lanes stretching back 100 yds in the woods. Todays pictures typically show the solitary hunter some smiling some with their "poker face" and THE BIG ONE. No other people or deer. Alot more technology, equipment, and the prepped hunting area. Ultimately we decide as individuals how we will hunt. I love the group pictures. My family has been doing the party hunting thing in the same county in Minnesota since the 1890's. We now use open sighted muzzleloaders. I hope my descendants will have the opportunity to catch a glimpse of their past. However if hunters/dnr/legislature chose technology over tradition, we will respect that. IMHO Minnesota is still the best whitetail hunting state.

lakevet

[BobT]

The only way to outlaw party hunting and make it enforceable I guess is to require all participants to not only have their license in possession but also their unused tag.

Didn't somebody already reiterate that the goal was not to outlaw party hunting but to outlaw buck party hunting? This means that as long as I have a license to hunt I am able to hunt and help other members of my party take a doe. How would the law prevent me from filling a member's buck tag?

So, we outlaw party hunting altogether. So much for hunting as a group activity...well...maybe for the first day it is but after that first deer is down, the party suddenly gets smaller.

Imagine going fishing with your buddy and he happens to be catching fish and you're not. He gets a limit and sets his rod down because you can't party fish. Now, you're fishing while he's along for the ride. But wait! He's got the keys to the boat and he's not interested in riding along, watching you fail so he pulls up anchor and your day is done. Since you can't legally party fish, you can't legally take any of the fish home for your dinner plate either. You're completely out of luck buddy. Too bad, too sad. Have a nice day.

Bob

[Bowfin]

Unfortunately for me last year I didn't get a deer. Despite hunting both Minnesota and Wisconsin seasons, it just wasn't my year. We all have them - those years - be it bad luck or circumstance we end the year with an empty tag. Fortunately, I hunt with two different parties in both states. Some I hunted with had the kind of year where they couldn't do nothing wrong and shot deer. I was given 2 deer by members of my party this past year - a doe and a spike. With only two deer in the freezer, my family of 4 will have to ration the venison meals so it will last until fall. We had a meal tonight and it tasted great - who knows if it was the buck or doe we ate. I'm glad my uncle pulled the trigger on the spike - means I was able to take home some meat this year.

There have been several years I've shot multiple deer and gave one or two to other members of my party. This year the deer was given to me. I guess with those I hunt with, we have a great time if we pull the trigger or not. We are happy for whomever gets the deer that year. But it is sure nice to always take home some venison if you shoot one or not.

Always go after the big one - once in a while you will connect. In the meantime have fun and shoot the deer you want - the big ones will always be out there.

[CodyDawg]

Most, if not all of the western states do not allow party hunting and they have few problems enforcing it. So it can be done. I would like the party hunting rule revised for a couple of reasons. One, I think it would help little bucks survive; that is my opinion and preference. Two, I just dont think anyone else needs to shoot somebody else's deer. I think it would help the mentality that you have to shoot as many deer as possible or you are less of a man type of thinking that I see out there. People should be happy to shoot 1 buck, you simply dont need to shoot more. If you want meat and you hunt in an area with bonus tags, shoot the does. I also believe that there are many cases where people are shooting deer for someone else who doesnt want them too but is unwilling to speak up.

As for more hunting time in the field with party hunting...that can work against you as well. You are in a party with 3 guys. Guy #3 shoots 3 deer and you are done. Your season is done with that little spike whether you like it or not. You do not control your own destiny.

[Neighbor_guy]

...

As for more hunting time in the field with party hunting...that can work against you as well. You are in a party with 3 guys. Guy #3 shoots 3 deer and you are done. Your season is done with that little spike whether you like it or not. You do not control your own destiny.

True, but if you are on limited time, and are there for the meat, you are done with food in the freezer. If you dont have time limitations, pull your tags from the "party", or fill yours last.

If you dont like "party hunting" don't party hunt. There is a time and place for it.

Bowhunting is generaly considered a solitary event, do that, I do. I am a meat hunter, as most are, when november comes freezers are getting awfully empty at my house. Meat is the priority. If I have to grab a rifle or handgun and shoot someone's freezer filler for them, so be it. Hopefully they will do the same for me if the chance comes up.

ps. Just because "party hunting" is not legal in mountain states does not mean it doesn't occur. "Did I shoot that deer, or did you?"

[lakevet]

I hunted elk last fall. First time I have hunted out west. Met and talked at length to 2 game wardens as I had questions about evidence of sex on a boned out elk and where to place the tag. They said yes, party hunting is illegal, but can be hard to enforce. Not my opinion, just repeating what 2 game wardens said. And NO I only shot one cow. I let go the other 4 of the group. When I shot the lead cow in the neck, the rest stopped and stood looking at the dead cow. It would have been an easy 30 ft neck shot on any of the four. Interesting comment by one warden was that they were hoping to have a good kill as the elk population has been too high in that area. Wished I could have helped them with that as our group ended with unfilled cow tags and elk meat is delicious!

lakevet

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: BobT

Even if laws were passed outlawing party hunting for bucks or any deer for that matter, how could that possibly be enforced? Where I hunt the CO would have to be right there when the deer was taken in order to know who shot it vs. who tagged it. It's a law that would be a waste of effort.

So should we take all the poaching laws off the books? Most of the time the CO's need to be there or need someone to turn them in or slip up to catch them. Its a lame excuse not to have a law because they are difficult to enforce.

It's also a lame excuse to have a law that has no benefit.

[Big Dave2]

Most, if not all of the western states do not allow party hunting and they have few problems enforcing it. So it can be done.

How do you know this? It may go on all the time because there is almost NO way to enforce this.

I would like the party hunting rule revised for a couple of reasons. One, I think it would help little bucks survive; that is my opinion and preference. Two, I just dont think anyone else needs to shoot somebody else's deer.

If I don't mind my buddy shooting MY deer why do you care?

I think it would help the mentality that you have to shoot as many deer as possible or you are less of a man type of thinking that I see out there. People should be happy to shoot 1 buck, you simply dont need to shoot more.

What about the mentality of I am less of a man if I shoot a basket rack instead of one that I think is worthy of the Outdoor news so everyone can see what a great hunter I am.

If you want meat and you hunt in an area with bonus tags, shoot the does. I also believe that there are many cases where people are shooting deer for someone else who doesnt want them too but is unwilling to speak up.

That's their problem.

As for more hunting time in the field with party hunting...that can work against you as well. You are in a party with 3 guys. Guy #3 shoots 3 deer and you are done. Your season is done with that little spike whether you like it or not. You do not control your own destiny.

We have filled our objective, we can go home happily and start butchering!

[Getanet]

Any argument about what they do in another state just doesn't hold water with me. Particularly when we are talking about a different animal.

Each state has their own laws. The only point that can be made by that is they are different, not better.

Party hunting has been legal in MN for generations and the state deer population has never been higher. What's the problem? If you don't like party hunting, don't participate.

Finally, to the point about not controlling your own destiny when party hunting - I disagree with that too. You have complete control over whether or not you open your tag for others to fill - and if you do you have to accept you might be taking home a spike buck. But most importantly the choice is yours...wish so many people weren't pushing to take that choice away from you.

[Rippinlip]

Is it true that in Iowa, you can take 2 bucks per person?

Is that only for residents?

If this fact is true are the antlered animals taking a beating?

As far as all these trophies in other states that everyone is comparing us too, ask yourself is everyone shooting them? Or is it a small percentage of hunters shooting alot of them.

I would say it is a small percentage shooting alot of them, which tells me they are probably doing something on land you have total control of. Geee sound familar.

How many of all hunters have this ability, to have lots of land and control total harvest. Not me, I hunt small tracks of land mostly under 10 acres and alot of public land. I want the choice to harvest what I want, yes I do let some walk, but I want the choice, I think the more laws we have in place the more we turn away our new generation of hunters....

By the way, my family and I really like venison, but I only took 1 deer this year, we will be running out before deer season, but once again it was my choice not to harvest another even though I had another tag, it went unfilled.

[Bear55]

It basically comes down to what you want. This states game laws are favored 100% towards the meat hunters. Some of us are willing to change any of those laws to see a few more young bucks live to an older age. Those who are against it call us the vocal minority but if you look at the thread "Ok, I'll ask the Question" ( http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1713002/11 )you will see those numbers are closer to 50/50 on this site. It's impossible to say if those number reflect the rest of the state or not but something tells me we are more than just a vocal minority.

[Getanet]

"This states game laws are favored 100% towards the meat hunters."

If we all want to keep hunting than that's the way it should be. We currently have a dwindling hunting population and plenty of anti-hunters that view us as essentially blood-thirsty savages.

Providing food for your family and population control are the two best arguments for the survival of our sport.

The question in the thread you point out was "should MN hunting laws be changed?" The responses were heavily skewing towards "No" until someone mentioned party hunting. Hunters can't ask for less hunting legislation at the same time call for more.

[Rippinlip]

To those who want bigger bucks and thats it.

How do you propose to do it?

Only thing that has really been mentioned here is eliminate party hunting.

Party hunting is a good thing in certain situations, I use to party hunt with a big party and everyone liked venison. We hunted hard for either 2 or 4 days(all that was available to us). Did we pass on some deer, sure. Did we fill others tags, absolutely. Some people just wanted to be with the gang, help out on drives, and did not care who filled thier tags.

We also knew when to stop harvesting deer.

I agree with you Bear that is probably about 50/50.

Would I like to see a "150" every year, probably yes, who wouldn't. But for myself I do not want more laws saying it is the only thing I can shoot.

I shot my first buck with a bow this year, it is not what some claim to be a "trophy", but it was for me.....

He is going on the wall.

My trophy status may not be as high as yours, should it be?

As a deer hunter yourself, would you be comfortable telling the whole state of youths that are just starting out, that they cannot be shooting thier first buck unless it is ???????.

I am not comfortable with that.

This is a heck of a topic with as many opinions as there are people.

Mark

[DaveT]

I'm going to try another angle here that I think I've mentioned before in other threads, forgive me for repeating myself.

There are many of us out here who are either trying or have given up trying to grow bigger bucks on our own. Maybe we control 80 acres that we plant food plots on, maybe we just pass up every little buck we see waiting for a big one. Nobody would argue that it is our right to not shoot that little buck, am I right? All we want is to see a few of those little bucks survive to next year. Right now 9 out of 10 yearling bucks get killed every fall. By eliminating the party hunting, we would see that number go to 6 or 7 out of 10. We get our pleasure from seeing our hard work and sacrifice pay off for us, when 1 neighbor sets you back 3 years by killing 3 or 4 yearling bucks by himself, that puts a huge dent in our effort and attitude. Why should a guy who puts in all the time, work, sweat and money to try to grow and protect some deer bother? Right now all of his effort goes down the drain when his neighbor shoots everything in sight.

There is a sense of entitlement amongst some that amazes me. "I am entitled to shoot as many bucks as I have tags for because that is the way I've always done it" doesn't fly with me. You are entitled to a deer tag if the population supports a season, that is where your entitlement ends. You are not entitled to filling out your group, you are not entitled to a freezer full of venison, by purchasing your tag you are guaranteed the right to try to legally take an animal that is described on your tag. If you are successful, great! Now have a seat and let the rest of us try to take one of our own.

[CSTPETER]

There's a QDM thread on the community forum that might provide some insight and answers to your questions. Check it out.

Personally I'm one of the Evil QDM guys. Call me a trophy hunter or whatever, I could really care less. I enjoy the meat immensely (Family eats two/year minimum), but the heart-pounding-out-of- my- chest, knees-a-shakin-so-hard-your-bow-isn't-steady experience only comes for me when I see a mature buck. It's not an ego thing like a lot of people think. It's an experience thing.

Although I hate the idea of more regulation, I'd be in favor of any changes away from the quantity based management policies, to a more quality based herd. (at this point you can accuse me of just wanting bigger bucks...O.K. guilty.)

The way I see it is that the current regulations seriously impede the quality of my hunt by not managing for more mature bucks.(note sarcasm...this is the same argument we always hear from "keep everything the way it is" contingent, only skewed my way)

Anyway. I know exactly where this thread is going so I'll just sit back and enjoy the neverending debate.

[MOSSY]

NO CHANGES

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DAD KILLS HIS DEER,BUT KIDS HAVEN'T YET?IF THEY ARE UNDER 14 THEN THEY CAN'T LEGALLY HUNT WITHOUT AN ADULT

[Getanet]

Dave, you make a good point. It would be frustrating. But go back and read your post from the point of view of someone who party hunts on public land. I think some would question who has the sense of entitlement when they already have 80 acres of private land and now want to regulate what can and can't be shot on the land surrounding them.

[Getanet]

Hey CSTPETER, welcome. Don't think you're evil at all and I think we all appreciate the excitement of seeing a monster buck.

I'm not an expert in QDM, but isn't there quite a bit of debate among the experts on if it's really even possible? So much more goes into the size of a deer other than hunting pressure.

Also, just wondering how excited I'd be if every buck I saw had a big rack? Isn't a large part of the excitement the rarity of it?

[NoWiser]

To those that say people who like to hunt mature whitetails should just go hunt on a game farm to shoot their trophy....... I say if you NEED venison bad enough that you NEED to party hunt bucks, why don't YOU go hunt on those game farms? Then you are guaranteed to fill your freezer every single season.

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to do this. My point is that a statement like that is absolutely ridiculous (and slightly offensive to someone like myself who enjoys the challenge of hunting big bucks and would like to see a more balanced herd.) Us “Trophy Hunters”, despite what some think, do not hunt for the sole purpose of putting a set of antlers on the wall. We hunt because we relish the challenge of pursuing a mature buck, on his home turf, and on his terms.

There are MORE than enough opportunities in this state to fill your freezer with venison (without party hunting bucks) between bow season, early anterless, rifle, and muzzleloader season. Not to mention all of the bonus doe tags that are available to party hunt with, in many zones. I don’t quite understand how so many people would be so upset about a rule that would still allow them to shoot whatever they want, yet increase the chance that they, or their kids, will harvest a nice, mature buck someday. Obviously this rule should not apply in lottery areas……

My prediction…….we will see this regulation change in the next 5 years, so get used to the idea.

BTW I have not shot a buck in 12 years (and I am 25 years old). Very rarely have I failed to put a doe in the freezer, though. I hunt all public land in the northern part of the state.

[ChrisT]

So after 45 min of reading through all the arguments for and against I can't help but comment. I did some reserch in regards to liscense sales in Iowa and Minnesota. From 92 till now, liscense sales have dropped by around 150,000 in minnesota, conversly, in Iowa the liscense sales have gone from below 200,000 to almost 400,000 liscenses. Does anyone think the reason why there is more large bucks harvested in Iowa is because they have a larger hunter per square mile ratio. I don't know if you can argue that by not shooting small bucks there will be many more mature bucks harvested. They are shooting more bucks in Iowa because there is greater pressure in Iowa.

I should mention that I did go with the number of general liscenses sold. This does not take into account bonus tags.

[schmoe147]

I'm totally a QDM guy. I would love to see party hunting come to an end. I might be off the subject a little on this but just my opinion. I think The people that argue this and say they are meat hunters should just go and buy A 1/2 or Full beef cow, In the end if you are just hunting for the meat I would be willing to guess the price would be just as cheap once you figure out what it cost to hunt. Liscense,Clothes,Gas,days off et......

[Rippinlip]

After taking a little more time to read through some of the other posts again, maybe I missed a little bit, sorry.

I do not want to see party hunting ended, but as far as party hunting for bucks, I may have to re-think just a little.

That may help..

I just do not want to see our deer laws get more complicated....

[B K'S DAD]

Very good point.

[Getanet]

Schmoe147, I don't think that people who claim they hunt for the meat do it only for the meat. That's an awful lot of time, money and discomfort involved. I think they hunt for the same reasons most people do - the thrill of the hunt, enjoying nature , family traditions, comraderie, etc. I think their point is they don't feel like their hunt was any less successful by shooting a doe or smaller buck than if they shot a 12 point.

I also would need more evidence to change my mind. In the area I hunt there just isn't the resources needed to consistently grow big bucks. You could ban hunting for 5 years there and all you'd have is a bunch of spikes, forks and such running around with scraggly racks.