A-Rod is a cheater

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

Way off track Sled, but that is not surprising, you seem to always take the exact opposite stance that I do, so I know I must be onto something. Using your "theory" of line drives turning into outs rather than dinks falling in I would have to say a warning track fly ball that is caught 10 feet from going out looks about 100% more like a home run does as opposed to your duck snort suddenly turning into a screaming line drive that finds an outfielders glove. Those two look nothing similiar and would have to be hit on two very different parts of the bat to impart their characteristics, however a fly ball that just keeps flying about a half second longer on the same trajectory would appear very similiar to one caught on the warning track had it not been chemically "enhanced" to do so. Game Set and Match! Stay on point here, we are talking about cheaters vs clean players. You don't get into the HOF for hitting balls that fall short, you get into the HOF for hitting taters and that is why these weak willed players juiced up in the first place.

[mrklean]

Ricky Henderson didnt hit dingers, sorry i had to toss that one in there. Its not about the HOF for them at all its just what arod said. MONEY!!! Thats why they all did it to make the big bucks.

[zepman]

Bigger, faster, stronger. It's been drilled into every athlete's head for the past 25 years. I have to agree with Windy on this one. The guys who are making the headlines are future HOF candidates(used to be). Power hitters and power pitchers. I really don't even think they've scratched the surface on this one. Think of the hundreds, if not thousands of minor leaguers trying to gain that little edge to sign their first big-time contract. It's cheating on a grand scale...far worse than what Pete Rose ever did IMO. Ego's and money make men do strange things...

[Windy City]

Klean,

I can go with that too. The mighty dollar is numero uno on all their minds but the HOF feeds their egos. And thanks Zep for the nod of agreement. Should be a no brainer. Trying to use the excuse that "everybody is doing it" so everybody is OK, is just wrong! Wrong is wrong and each and every cheater should be called out and let the asteric factory go into overtime creating little smudges on all their stats!

[Big Dave2]

Dave very sell said i like the way you think, i could name you about 20 different things you could walk into GNC and buy and help you build muscle, maybe not as fast as roids but they dont cause you to have the side effects like roids

Absolutely! That's my point. Are the guys that are using this stuff cheaters as well?

I will always contend that you still have to be a tremendous athlete to do what these guys do. I am 6'5" 300 lbs but there is no way I could even get the bat on a ball pitched by a major league pitcher let alone hit a home run.

Marijuana is a banned substance also. Should we disregard the accomplishments of anyone who was ever using that while playing?

Thanks MrKlean. I'm glad someone gets me!

[SledNeck]

Ozzie Smith career HRs

28

[blue_healer_guy]

He got in because he did a flip running to short.

[fishyguy]

Yes you have to be an amazing athlete to do what these guys do but steroids do make a difference. Even if we get away from the batting and quit worrying about doubles that turn into HR's, bloops that drop in because they were strong enough to muscle one on the hands to the outfield there is still the matter of that it made them faster, quicker and healthier. Even miniscule amounts can make a big difference. It gives a guy better range, better arm, better speed, heals faster, doesn't tire as easily. Then again if being stronger doesn't make a difference you just have to hit the ball solidly then why lift weights at all. Wouldn't it be easier to just rely on the old god given gifts. Strength makes a difference and makes a better ball player whether it be though honest hard work or chemically aided hard work.

Ben Johnson was a world class sprinter. One of the best in the world but not the best until steroids gave him a gold medal (until taken back). It only made him one tenth of a second faster and he was already a world class athlete competing against world class athletes but steroids was enough to tilt the competition his way. I realize it is a different sport but I think the point is valid.

[fishyguy]

He got in because he did a flip running to short.

Yep...Ozzie is in the HOF for his flip, his amazing glove, his amazing range, charisma, and being on a winning team much of his career. His hitting had absolutely nothing to do with Ozzie being a household name.

[SledNeck]

Yes you have to be an amazing athlete to do what these guys do but steroids do make a difference. Even if we get away from the batting and quit worrying about doubles that turn into HR's, bloops that drop in because they were strong enough to muscle one on the hands to the outfield there is still the matter of that it made them faster, quicker and healthier. Even miniscule amounts can make a big difference. It gives a guy better range, better arm, better speed, heals faster, doesn't tire as easily. Then again if being stronger doesn't make a difference you just have to hit the ball solidly then why lift weights at all. Wouldn't it be easier to just rely on the old god given gifts. Strength makes a difference and makes a better ball player whether it be though honest hard work or chemically aided hard work.

Ben Johnson was a world class sprinter. One of the best in the world but not the best until steroids gave him a gold medal (until taken back). It only made him one tenth of a second faster and he was already a world class athlete competing against world class athletes but steroids was enough to tilt the competition his way. I realize it is a different sport but I think the point is valid.

read into it carl lewis was on steroids too and he still couldnt beat johnson

you never want to be the guy NOT on roids

[tonkapat]

even though a-rod is a loser he is a step above the other hundreds of losers who don't admit it. I try not to watch or attend any profesional sporting events period. IMHO almost all are overpaid losers a-rod is no worse than the rest.

[mrklean]

Carl lewis was on roids???? He wasnt even that big

[SledNeck]

tested positive for banned substances just like Ben Johnson

Quote:

Olympic legend Carl Lewis is among more than 100 American athletes involved in a cover-up of drug use, documents reveal.

Lewis and two of his training partners all took the same three types of banned stimulants and were caught at the 1988 US Olympic trials, according to the documents released by a disgruntled former senior US anti-doping official, Dr Wade Exum.

But on appeal to their national Olympic committee, all were cleared of inadvertent doping. Two months later, at the Seoul Olympics, Lewis finished second in the 100 metres sprint. But when Canadian Ben Johnson failed his Olympic drug test, Lewis was awarded the 100m gold.

Lewis also won the Olympic long jump - as part of his career tally of nine Olympic gold medals - and his training partner, Joe De Loach, won the 200m in Seoul.

Lewis's lawyer, Martin Singer, has responded to the revelations by saying his client had taken only a herbal remedy.

"Carl did nothing wrong," Mr Singer told The Orange County Register. "There was never intent."

The latest documents show Lewis tested positive for the banned stimulants found in cold medications: pseudoephedrine, ephedrine and phenylpropanolamine.

The World Anti-Doping Agency's chairman, [PoorWordUsage] Pound, dismissed the "no intent" defence. Mr Pound has seen copies of the documents and said that in some instances there was almost "automatic forgiveness" by the US officials.

Letters written by a US Olympic Committee executive, Baaron Pittenger, were sent advising some athletes of their positive drug-test results - and at the same time told them they were being cleared.

"It's got to be pretty embarrassing to the USOC," said Mr Pound, "to have their secretary-general writing in the letter, where he advises an athlete of a positive A sample, 'I have to send you this, but we already decided this was inadvertent.' That whole process turned into a joke."

Dr Exum, the former USOC

director for drug control from 1991 to 2000, released more than 30,000 pages of documents to Sports Illustrated. They confirm widespread suspicion of the USOC drug-testing system before it was moved to an independent body, the US Anti Doping Agency, after the Sydney Olympics.

The Herald reported last year that a US athlete tested positive to steroids in 1999 but was allowed to compete - and win an Olympic gold medal - in the 2000 Sydney Games. US officials still refuse to divulge the name of the athlete, or those of 13 other athletes who had failed drug tests around the same time, citing privacy laws.

In the Seoul 100m, Britain's Linford Christie was elevated from third to second after Johnson was disqualified. In later years, Christie was banned for using steroids.

The International Olympic Committee's medical commission chairman, Arne Ljungqvist, said the Exum documents "fit a pattern" of failure to report on positive drug cases. But the USOC called Dr Exum's accusations "baseless".

Dr Exum said there were more than 100 positive tests for US athletes who won 19 Olympic medals between 1988 and 2000, but many were allowed to keep competing.

[mrklean]

based on that i wouldnt say he was on roids, i dont know so many people so many different things you just never know what anyone is doing anymore.

[SledNeck]

That's just one article

[kr8r.tom]

a few winter olympics ago, i watched them on CBC, canadien broadcasting corp. that year a canadien x game style skier was tested positive for marijuana, the canadiens couldn't believe how much of a big deal NBC was making of the situation and wanting the skier to be disqualified from the olympics alltogether. CBC pointed out that the american athletes were tested for illegal substances by different doctors and using different standards of testing, than what the rest of the world's rules of testing were. no wonder we win so many gold medals and other countries hate us, we even cheat at the drug testing.

[fishyguy]

Originally Posted By: fishyguy

Yes you have to be an amazing athlete to do what these guys do but steroids do make a difference. Even if we get away from the batting and quit worrying about doubles that turn into HR's, bloops that drop in because they were strong enough to muscle one on the hands to the outfield there is still the matter of that it made them faster, quicker and healthier. Even miniscule amounts can make a big difference. It gives a guy better range, better arm, better speed, heals faster, doesn't tire as easily. Then again if being stronger doesn't make a difference you just have to hit the ball solidly then why lift weights at all. Wouldn't it be easier to just rely on the old god given gifts. Strength makes a difference and makes a better ball player whether it be though honest hard work or chemically aided hard work.

Ben Johnson was a world class sprinter. One of the best in the world but not the best until steroids gave him a gold medal (until taken back). It only made him one tenth of a second faster and he was already a world class athlete competing against world class athletes but steroids was enough to tilt the competition his way. I realize it is a different sport but I think the point is valid.

read into it carl lewis was on steroids too and he still couldnt beat johnson

you never want to be the guy NOT on roids

So what your saying is everyone should be on steroids. Is that right?

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: SledNeck

Originally Posted By: fishyguy

Yes you have to be an amazing athlete to do what these guys do but steroids do make a difference. Even if we get away from the batting and quit worrying about doubles that turn into HR's, bloops that drop in because they were strong enough to muscle one on the hands to the outfield there is still the matter of that it made them faster, quicker and healthier. Even miniscule amounts can make a big difference. It gives a guy better range, better arm, better speed, heals faster, doesn't tire as easily. Then again if being stronger doesn't make a difference you just have to hit the ball solidly then why lift weights at all. Wouldn't it be easier to just rely on the old god given gifts. Strength makes a difference and makes a better ball player whether it be though honest hard work or chemically aided hard work.

Ben Johnson was a world class sprinter. One of the best in the world but not the best until steroids gave him a gold medal (until taken back). It only made him one tenth of a second faster and he was already a world class athlete competing against world class athletes but steroids was enough to tilt the competition his way. I realize it is a different sport but I think the point is valid.

read into it carl lewis was on steroids too and he still couldnt beat johnson

you never want to be the guy NOT on roids

So what your saying is everyone should be on steroids. Is that right?

Why can't it be a personal choice, like smoking? If you want to have a chance at prolong your life then don't take them, if you don't care why should I?

[Windy City]

Big Dave,

I think you have to look at the big picture on these things. Back up the time machine on some of these athletes to grammer school and high school and I guarantee if you let them they would be roiding up to make the team and get into the starting line up and getting that college scholarship. A very slippery slope indeed. They have been proven to shorten your life, shrink your nads and do a bunch of other nasty stuff to your body. That is why we can not open pandora's box.

[Big Dave2]

I'm not saying that these harmful substances should be LEGAL. I am merely stating to all of those who would have the record books expunged of all records by so-called "cheaters" that these men are still tremendous athletes and it takes a great deal of talent to do what they did. There's no doubt that A-rod, Bonds and the other roid users benefited by gaining a slight "edge", but i will still admire their accomplishments anyway.

[Windy City]

I hear you Big Dave, thanks for the clarification. I still can not look at these guys with the same admiration as before. I just can't help thinking about guys who played by the rules and got cheated or passed over because of the "edge". I just did not want to see kids thinking that if the superstars do it then why shouldn't they.

[SledNeck]

Steroids when not abused arent as bad as the media would like you to believe.

Watch a movie called bigger, faster , stronger.

[Big Dave2]

I hear you Big Dave, thanks for the clarification. I still can not look at these guys with the same admiration as before. I just can't help thinking about guys who played by the rules and got cheated or passed over because of the "edge". I just did not want to see kids thinking that if the superstars do it then why shouldn't they.

People will always be trying to gain an "edge". Like I said before, there are plenty of "legal" substances out there that will help someone get an edge that someone before them did not have. Even the equipment that is used today and the fitness knowledge that players have compared to earlier generations. You just can't compare different periods in time.

[Brian H]

How would you guys feel if you were the guy who lost his starting job to................

Sammy Sosa

Mark McGuire

Roger Clemons

and all the rest. These are the cream of the crop players and would have been starters regardless of if they used steroids or not. However, the intention of competition is to ensure that players are equal except for natural abilities. Otherwise all bats would be corked. Pitchers would throw marbles from 50 feet and fielders would use gloves the size of hockey goalie catchers gloves. The 'roids mean nothing if ALL players are using. However some have chosen to follow the rules of society and the game.

That is the difference and why this is important to baseball.

[PierBridge]

Great stuff guys!....

[fishyguy]

Guys are amazing athletes whether they do things without steroids or not. Heck, guys in AAA are amazing athletes but that doesn't give the right for anyone of them to become more of an athlete by cheating.

Spit balls, scuffing of balls, vaseline all make a pitchers pitch move more. That is cheating, its not hurting anyone else. Should we legalize that also. Maybe we should let people cork thier bats. We can have super balls flying all over the Dome when someone breaks a bat. Its cheating but no biggie right?

[fishyguy]

Steroids when not abused arent as bad as the media would like you to believe.

Watch a movie called bigger, faster , stronger.

Are we only worried about the health issues or are we concerned about the effects of the game and advantages given to those who use steroids?

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: SledNeck

Steroids when not abused arent as bad as the media would like you to believe.

Watch a movie called bigger, faster , stronger.

Are we only worried about the health issues or are we concerned about the effects of the game and advantages given to those who use steroids?

I would have to say that the rules are in place for the former not necessarily the latter.

[zamboni]

Originally Posted By: mjgrose

He got in because he did a flip running to short.

Yep...Ozzie is in the HOF for his flip, his amazing glove, his amazing range, charisma, and being on a winning team much of his career. His hitting had absolutely nothing to do with Ozzie being a household name.

Ozzie might not have hit 500 career HRs, but he was pretty much close to a .300 hitter most of his career, and a perennial All Star because of his stellar defense.

15 time All Star

13 time Gold Glove

Silver Slugger Award winner (once)

That warrants HOF entrance if you ask me.

[fishyguy]

I didn't say he didn't belong in the HOF. I was only saying it was not his bat that got him. Your hitting stats are inaccurate on Ozzie. In 19 seasons he only hit over .290 twice and never higher than .303. In fact, 7 years were below .250. His lifetime average is .262 and career OBP is .337. It was his glove that got him in.