Moving the Firearm Season

[BLACKJACK]

There's nothing special about the neighbors property other than the great cover the pines provide them during the tough months of the year.

I think you hit on the answer right there, plant more pines and spruces on your property if you want to keep them around.

[BLACKJACK]

The basis of everything I've posted in this thread is about why people wouldn't want to see more bucks and have more opportunites at them.

And all I've tried to do is point out that there IS a downside to QDM. You make it sound like any deer hunter that wouldn't want big bucks is an idiot. Its all in how you frame the question. Ask someone if they'd want to be a millionaire? Of course they would!! But then tell them that they'd have to work 16 hour days for 25 years and live in a 15 foot trailer. Mmmmmm, they'd rethink that wouldn't they?

The same way with your 'why wouldn't people want to see big bucks' rant. Of course all deer hunters would!!! But there IS a downside to managing stictly for big bucks and thats what I was pointing out.

[BeezeHound]

Originally Posted By: BoozeHound

There's nothing special about the neighbors property other than the great cover the pines provide them during the tough months of the year.

I think you hit on the answer right there, plant more pines and spruces on your property if you want to keep them around.

We don't have the money, time or areas cleared big enough to equal the 40 acres of pines the neighbor has. It would be such a shame to cut down that many acres of oaks too. Its really pretty simple for me, we see plenty of decent bucks each year, by decent I mean that 2.5 to 3.5 year old range, so I don't see a need for pushing the season back at all.

[inspec_brad]

BullMN what I really was saying is colder potentially later rifle hunting would put a lot of hunters sol. November is when the change takes place, a nasty november and many people won't have a single deer on their property.

I know what you were saying, and so does everybody else. You just told us alot.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: sticknstring

Wait until you get 500,000 hunters in the woods. Holed up in the pines or not, the deer will be moving. Sometimes adjustments need to be made. A woodlot I hunt has been dead all season, I made the choice to drive 35 minutes to start hunting Sherburne. I'm seeing all kinds of deer now. Change isn't always easy, but sometimes, the grass IS greener on the other side.

I don't disagree with you that the deer would be on the move when the hunters hit the woods. However, why would I want to drive to another location when my family owns 200 acres of land that deer call home from late April through the first substantial snow fall? I would prefer to hunt the deer that I have been patterning all summer and fall than to drive to some place that I have no knowledge of. I would also like to be able to hunt the deer that I know are in my woods rather than having to wait for them to get scared over from a neighboring property first. We've tried everything on our property from planting food plots for all seasons to creating sanctuaries throughout the acreage to try and keep them around during the winter months, but they just don't stick around. There's nothing special about the neighbors property other than the great cover the pines provide them during the tough months of the year. I would much rather see antler restrictions, heck even earn a buck as much as I don't want to say that, before I would want to move the season back. Thats just my 2 cents but what do I know, I only hunt deer from bow opener through the end of the year and according to some I have no idea what the deer do in my neck of the woods, lol.

BooseHouse

So if the first substantial snowfall comes in Oct the deer vacate your land? Since we have never had a later rifle season I would say there is no sure way to determine anything. I would be willing to bet you would get your fair share of deer during a later rifle season. All we really have to do is look at Wisconsin, they shoot plenty of deer with a late rifle season.

[96trigger]

Quote:

And all I've tried to do is point out that there IS a downside to QDM.

Good point.

Pros of AR,

Giving the little bucks more of a chance at survival, they are not smart at that age and quite possibly the easiest to kill during the rut

After a few years, seeing larger, more mature bucks

Getting a much more balanced adult deer Buck:Doe ratio

Cons of AR

Some might not get to shoot a deer, specifically a male deer, especially the first year or two of introduction.

After a few years, seeing larger deer could lead to more outfitters, more leasing, and less hunting opportunity on private land, increased pressure on state land.

People will have to properly identify deer before they can shoot it.

Some might have to hunt longer and harder to get a deer, they won't always be able to shoot the first thing that walks by.

Any more?

Also, many of may or may not know that the zone 3B season is the same time as the Wisconsin firearm season. I am a religiouis 3B hunter, a lot of deer a shot during this later season. I'm sure that we can get the registration numbers for this later season. Also, weather is not a factor. It can be below zero, or 60 degrees pretty much anytime in October. I have bowhunted in October on some very cold days, and firearm hunted the end of November on some beautiful days. We can't control the weather.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Cons of AR

Some might not get to shoot a deer, specifically a male deer, especially the first year or two of introduction.

After a few years, seeing larger deer could lead to more outfitters, more leasing, and less hunting opportunity on private land, increased pressure on state land.

People will have to properly identify deer before they can shoot it.

Some might have to hunt longer and harder to get a deer, they won't always be able to shoot the first thing that walks by.

Any more?

Yup, the fact that hunting will have officially become another "competition" sport managed for bragging rights.

One will have to obey more laws just so people can thump their chests!

And also that we will have officially lost what it truly was to be a hunter just to appease a special interest group.

[BeezeHound]

BooseHouse

So if the first substantial snowfall comes in Oct the deer vacate your land?

Yes they do, it's happened before, but I can't control mother nature. I'm by no means saying that deer wouldn't get shot with a later firearms season, I'm sure harvest numbers would be similar throughout the state as they are now. I guess I would just have to wait for people to push them onto my property instead of being able to set my dad and sister up on deer that I've devoted most of my time patterning throughout the year.

[Bear55]

Quote:

And all I've tried to do is point out that there IS a downside to QDM.

After a few years, seeing larger deer could lead to more outfitters, more leasing, and less hunting opportunity on private land, increased pressure on state land.

This may be coming no matter what regulations MN puts in place. Maybe not so much the outfitters but hunting land is at a premium and our sport is turning more into the have's and the have nots. The rich will buy up as much land as they can so they can implement QDM on thier own, and I don't blame them I would do the same thing if I had the $$$ to buy up a section or two. This will put more pressure on public land and smaller private land. It should be an interesting 20 years ahead of us.

[BeezeHound]

You hit it right on the button there Bear55

[96trigger]

Quote:

Yup, the fact that hunting will have officially become another "competition" sport managed for bragging rights.

One will have to obey more laws just so people can thump their chests!

And also that we will have officially lost what it truly was to be a hunter just to appease a special interest group.

You know, I'm getting sick of that kind of argument and statement. Just because some of us would like to let some of the little ones get a bit older, why does that mean we are chest thumpers and braggars? I was trying to imply some factual scenarios for pros and cons, while you are relaying assumptions about all hunters in favor of some kind of QDM. I think that is B.S. Many of us on here are your average hunter, we start in the September and often don't finish until December, we have a passion for huntinig whitetails. For me, it is what makes the impending winter bearable. I take joy out of seeing deer, seeing wildlife, and occasionaly, harvesting or killing a deer, squirrel, goose, or grouse. I don't believe that wanting to give some of those little bucks a break would be to lose what it means to be a true hunter.

To me, a true hunter has their own personal values. They eat what they shoot and they are thankful every time that they are successful, be it a nice doe, or a fat pheasant. If that has the values to leave little bucks go in the hopes that they get older, I greatly commend them. Those that don't, I hold no ill will.

I think those that hold out and wait for the chance at the big guy can be more in tuned as to what a true hunter is. Often, he or she spends countless hours in the woods waiting, and often not getting, the chance at a nice buck. Compare that to the other extreme, they go out to the stand, hung over from the night before, shoot that stupid little fork looking for love, that walks into the scent they hung out. After shooting it right away, the spend the next few days, hunting half heartedly, and more time at the bar or sleeping in. I know this isn't every body. But I think that many of the guys on here that push for a little leniency on the little guys, are those that put in tremendous amounts of time and effort. They are not all the guys that just want the DNR to go out and make it easy for them.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

96, I totally agree w/ everything you said!

My beef is imposing additional regs! As the majority of QDM guys want.

My above post is referring to some of the other Cons there would be if Antler Point restrictions, moving the seasons, ect... were imposed by this special interest group.

But as a wheel goes round and round, so do these posts!

[honker23]

I agree as well.

I think that's why we have such a heated topic here. It's easy for someone with access to private land in a good deer area to be in favor of this QDM thing, which should include no hunting during the rut. Trying to convice someone hunting on public land or private land in less than ideal deer areas is going to be tough. So the have not's in this case are being asked to change their hunting.

Many of my friends hunt in sc mn and hunted for 5 days this year without seeing a deer. Many of them were confronted by others hunting the same land now that we have only one season. So now you want my friend who is 35 and has shot 2 deer in 15 yrs to pass on an 8 point buck that only scores 100". Are you kidding me. That deer to him would be more of a trophy to him than a 160" buck taken on a great piece of land with QDM practiced on it. Simply because of the work and time he spent to harvest it.

The great thing about hunting currently is we each have the choice to pull the trigger on the deer in front of us. If you have sole access to great land and practice QDM, great, I probably would too. If you only have access to public land or less than ideal land take a deer when you are presented with the opportunity.

On a side note, when does QDM cross the line and take some of the sport or fair chase away??

I hunt in an area that has changed quite a bit over the years. In se mn there are pieces of land that are "managed" for trophy deer. Only deer 150 and up are allowed, you pay $5000 and are taken to a spot by a "guide" to harvest this trophy. This is a reality down there and doesn't seem like hunting to me. Just my thoughts.

[inspec_brad]

I agree with you on the "chest thumper" [PoorWordUsage]. It is really getting old!

[inspec_brad]

I hunt in an area that has changed quite a bit over the years. In se mn there are pieces of land that are "managed" for trophy deer. Only deer 150 and up are allowed, you pay $5000 and are taken to a spot by a "guide" to harvest this trophy. This is a reality down there and doesn't seem like hunting to me. Just my thoughts.

Where is this happening? I live in semn and I have not heard of someone paying 5 grand for a deer.

[inspec_brad]

Bruledrifter....as far as appeasing a "special interest group" isn't that what happens everyday? People who want something different try to do something about it. Happens every day in the country.

[BeezeHound]

So now you want my friend who is 35 and has shot 2 deer in 15 yrs to pass on an 8 point buck that only scores 100". Are you kidding me. That deer to him would be more of a trophy to him than a 160" buck taken on a great piece of land with QDM practiced on it. Simply because of the work and time he spent to harvest it.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't believe they are asking people to pass on a 100" deer. Those are the deer they want to see more of and be able to harvest. Most of the people on this post are trying to save the spikes and forks, the 1.5 year olds.

[honker23]

I don't know his name, but my cousin has worked for him and some of the neighbors. It's south of 90 a bit.

I'm just saying these sanctuaries do nothing for the deer hunting. Unless you are the one guy one the sanctuary of course!

[honker23]

I hear you, but at 75 yds to a hunter with little experience, he may not be able to tell that basket 6-8 vs a yr older 8. But 75 yds is a reasonable shot with a slug gun, so they usually will shoot it given the opportunity.

By all means I think the little ones need to go/grow in my area. But I just wanted to point out why some may be opposed to this.

[inspec_brad]

I hear you, but at 75 yds to a hunter with little experience, he may not be able to tell that basket 6-8 vs a yr older 8. But 75 yds is a reasonable shot with a slug gun, so they usually will shoot it given the opportunity.

By all means I think the little ones need to go/grow in my area. But I just wanted to point out why some may be opposed to this.

It is called taking the time to identify your target. If the deer is running and you can't tell if it would be a legal deer, well I guess thats hunting.

[DaveT]

Amen Trigger, I can't believe I've missed this entire thread. Just got done reading through the whole thing, it's deja vu all over again. I love it, I spend all of my free time and what little extra cash I have hunting, scouting, or looking for new properties to hunt, but I'm the lazy one who wants the DNR to tie one to a tree for me.

Listen carefully, I am speaking for myself and about 20 other hardcore bowhunters that I hang around with. None of us are happy with the deer hunting in our home state. The reason we are unhappy is we have all seen what the hunting could be like with a few changes. I know that these changes will eventually happen, I would like to see them happen sooner. Unfortuneately, there is a segment of our deer hunters that were raised to not shoot does, and put some kind of value on a little buck that they don't put on a doe. It's like they have to be able to say "I got my BUCK!", and then toss the rack in the garage to be forgotten. When I see a young buck, I don't see vermin, I see potential. Eventually, this segment is going to die off, and our new, younger hunters, will put these changes into effect. My son will be one of them.

I hope I'm still around to enjoy the quality deer hunting that we all deserve when that happens.

If not, I'll wave to you every November as I'm heading south on 35...

[96trigger]

Quote:

Trying to convice someone hunting on public land or private land in less than ideal deer areas is going to be tough. So the have not's in this case are being asked to change their hunting.

Just want to add that I would only be in favor of some kind of restriction in areas that were at least Managed or in Intensive Harvest. I remember what it was like in Lotto zones, you guys should be able to shoot whay you CAN. In Intensive Harvest and Managed, we can be pickier and try shoot what we WANT. Their is a huge difference.

[96trigger]

I also think that eventually, we will get there in some parts of the state. I just truly hope that it is not at the expense of the general population. My biggest fear is a good buck population, and then not being able to find anyplace to hunt them without fearing for my life. I believe that many, many more, are thinking that way.

I started a whitetail club in the high school. Not to preach QDM, just to share hunting stories and B.S. about deer. However, the topic comes up, some of the kids with farms are practicing QDM, others are not, its amazing how some of the those that are not, start talking about it when they see those that are bring in pictures of 130+ class bucks. This will be a totally different generation than what we were brought up with.

[honker23]

If you can accurately score a buck at 75 yds in some cover, you're better than most!

The target is EASILY identified, it's a deer and a there's a rack. This is a hunter that has hunter for 4 yrs without seeing a deer, he will and should be able to shoot it. Without worrying if it 65 or 100 inches.

[honker23]

"Just want to add that I would only be in favor of some kind of restriction in areas that were at least Managed or in Intensive Harvest. I remember what it was like in Lotto zones, you guys should be able to shoot whay you CAN. In Intensive Harvest and Managed, we can be pickier and try shoot what we WANT. Their is a huge difference."

Agree totally, I think each area is in need of different regs, not just state wide.

Like I said earlier, I hunt south of you a bit and am in favor of shooting the does and letting the little bucks grow up a bit.

[inspec_brad]

If you can accurately score a buck at 75 yds in some cover, you're better than most!

The target is EASILY identified, it's a deer and a there's a rack. This is a hunter that has hunter for 4 yrs without seeing a deer, he will and should be able to shoot it. Without worrying if it 65 or 100 inches.

If the state was to put that kind of restriction in place, it would mean that you would have to correctly identify if it was legal or not. Just another step of knowing what you are shooting.

[Musky Buck]

Here's my little bit. We have 1 uncle in our group of roughly 20 of us, we all have our own land to hunt and sometimes we hunt together, etc. While making a drive, he shoots a major 10 pt. 200+ pounder. My cousin tags it because he has to be back to the cities that night. Our drive ends and we drag that horse out. Now muzzleloading my uncle takes a 5 pointer, about 130 pounds dressed. He has taken roughly 60 bucks maybe more. He can do on his own land whatever he wishes, but the rest of our group is less than impressed. Why would anyone after taking such a trophy buck, then hammer a 5 pt.? He certainly doesn't need the meat, a cattle farmer, he has elk meat galore and a large buck. Until we get to where the law states you must tag your own buck and then you can by doe permit take antlerless deer we'll all suffer some. Some guys have a tag for the wife and any eligible family members meaning non-hunters, but they can tag the first kills of the year freeing up the guy killing these deer, freeing up that buck tag for late bow or muzzleloading. That uncle of mine won't change his ways, the rest of us have harvested some 1 1/2 year old bucks and after a few, especially when we were younger, that was the end of that. I'm doubtful just moving the season away from the rut will make a minimal difference because of cross-tagging, baiting, and having half a million rifles out 2 weeks later or something, that with cold weather might really push people into shooting the first rack they see to get out of the elements. ? Maybe right ?

[96trigger]

Its why I think only AR will work efficiently and quickly. Not moving the season. I think that not allowing for party hunting FOR BUCKS would be a great start and would seriously help, and might be all we would have to do, unfortunately, it would be a nightmare to enforce. People will still do it, even after it is illegal. I would love to see it in the books, but I don't think it would be feasable to enforce.

Again, I want to stress that I would only be for restrictions in areas with an abundant population, not lottery areas. This fall, I bet I passed on at least a dozen different small bucks, 8 that would have fallen into the no shoot category under AR, I will be lucky if 6 of those survived. But I think about how good it could be next year had all 8 of those had a reprieve and one more year to grow and get a little bit smarter. If you are in an area where seeing a deer happens once a season, or maybe once every couple, by all means, take what you can.

[tedl]

With -27 and a foot and half of snow already and a very healthy wolf population... I think we will see a lot of areas going back to lottery only next year.

[sticknstring]

Or at least intensive down to managed... I agree.

If AR's would be implemented, it'll most likely be the SE part of the state. That will do nothing for the rest of the state and the areas that need improvement the most. I believe season dates are mandated through the legislature so I don't see that changing anytime soon either. Start with the end of party hunting and go from there. The regulations to some are already complicated enough, but what about a county by county evaluation. Take the areas of the state with ample cover and game populations into trial runs of various restrictions. Whether it be AR's or EAB, etc. The Dakota's put out a booklet with each permit area and what you're allowed to hunt for. Some areas are 1 bearded turkey, others are 2 turkeys of any sex) Can't say for deer as I haven't hunted since '04 but why should MN be any different? Diversity among habitat across the state is as great or greater than any state, why one set of statewide regulations? Simplicity, cost? I'd be willing to pay an extra dollar or two for my archery license knowing that those dollars went towards micro-evaluation the state deer population on a county level and appropriately adopting regulation according to population/harvest goals. We've already got lottery, managed, and intensive zones. Lets get some AR regulation adopted in the intensive areas. The meat guys can load the freezer with 5 does and the beat your chest trophy guys which we have become to be known, can finally start seeing some decent bucks on occasion.