Trophy Hunters, Friend or Foe?

[ikatcher]

i hunted the big woods, west of deer river for 12 yrs. in all those yrs most of the bucks we shot were spikes or forks. we did get a handful that were heavy but short on height and width. i doubt the biggest one maybe would have made p&y. i then started hunting out by litchfield and hunted out there for 10 yrs. with a smaller party we shot no less then 10 that would have made p&y and 2 that were 170 class bucks. the one big differnce was in all those yrs in litchfield i never saw a spike and we took one fork, all the other younger bucks went right to small sixes and eights. i don't believe the north woods can produce regularly true trophys. i know there are some but they are few and far between.the weight of deer were similar. anyone have any thoughts on this. was it just the area i hunted up north or is it more common to have smaller racks in the big woods?

[FISHINGURU]

some people need to do some research on Quality Deer Management or(QDM).

why should people have to go to other places or states to get big bucks when we could do quality deer managment here? why does there have to be laws before people are willing to give it a try?

you up north people that own land why don't you make food plots to bring deer to your land and start your own QDM? age, nutrition, genetics and habitat make big bucks...i know this state has awesome genetics and habitat..but some areas lack in letting the deer get old enough or not enough nutrition...it would be the first thing i did if i owned land.

pass on small bucks and shoot does for the freezer and encourage your neighbors or near by land owners to do the same.

the goal of QDM is not just to produce mature bucks but to produce biologically and socially balanced deer herds.. this means well balanced age and sex ratios and a population that is well within what the habitat can support....achieving this involves protecting younger bucks and harvesting an adequate number of female deer.

by reducing their numbers we can adjust sex ratios toward a more natural level and bring population down to what the habitat can support..one result is that remaining deer are much more healthier and the rut is more compacted and intense...older bucks do most of the breeding and fawns are born at optimal time for survival.

so why shoot immature bucks and not harvest does for the freezer? why not do your part and harvest a doe for QDM and hold off for a big buck and let the little ones walk?

why is it most "trophy" hunters say they either take a doe right away and wait for a big buck or hunt for only a big buck until the end then harvest a doe? mainly because they are the most educated on this and have done the research....sorry guys but its the truth...its just the right thing to do.

[Hoyt4]

Not everyone will win like little kids t-ball.Not all will get trophys.We can make things better for the deer herd but you can not put restrictions on antlers.If you want to let that deer walk that's your choice and there is nothing wrong with that.Just watching Babe W. right now he is hunting Kansas I did not know they could bait.Do you think this should be done in MN?

[96trigger]

Quote:

Do you think this should be done in MN?

that is topic on a whole other thread, please keep it there.

[kr8r.tom]

theres not one county in this state that couldn't produce a boone and crockett deer. they just need a chance to live to reach their potential. obviously some areas are better than others and if your buck harvest is 80% 1.5 year old bucks year after year your going to [PoorWordUsage] off all the does because they don't have any mature bucks to breed with, they're stuck with 2 second forky with a stupid look on his face. Anyone notice outdoor news hasn't even had a full page of the best buck contest yet, usually have a page in the first issue after rifle season starts.

[TimR]

so why shoot immature bucks and not harvest does for the freezer? why not do your part and harvest a doe for QDM and hold off for a big buck and let the little ones walk?

[FISHINGURU]

laugh it up...i'm sure the biologist, wildlife managers and people that have been studying deer herds and behavior for years are full of it lol.

you can still have a high population of deer but just managed to be a more even sex ratio with a nice buck size average..

weren't people just talking about how wisconsin has alot of deer but no one would shoot does cause they all want bucks? now everything is all whack and they have to put EAB in place to force people to shoot does? there's a reason they want you to shoot them does.

each adult doe will have 2-3 fawns...half of those fawns will be female...them fawns will breed and have their own fawns and the original mother of the first 2-3 fawns will have 2-3 more fawns the next year ect, ect...out of the little fawn bucks most of them will be shot by the age 1 1/2....its easy to see how the ratio gets so lopsided...especially in areas where people don't want to shoot does.

the trick is to get meat hunters to try and not shoot immature bucks as often and get the "trophy" hunters to still take does.

[Coach1310]

laugh it up...i'm sure the biologist, wildlife managers and people that have been studying deer herds and behavior for years are full of it lol.

you can still have a high population of deer but just managed to be a more even sex ratio with a nice buck size average.....

the trick is to get meat hunters to try and not shoot immature bucks as often and get the "trophy" hunters to still take does.

My question is... IF MN were regulated/managed/whatever, what would the average "Joe Hunter" gain from a more balanced population OTHER than a better chance at a bigger buck?

[FISHINGURU]

why's it all about the average "joe hunter"? the regs have been catered to the average "joe hunter" for a long time.

remember slot limits for fishing? you know how everyone whined when they were put into place but after a couple years everyone sees the purpose of it?

i have some good news

[Bear55]

i hunted the big woods, west of deer river for 12 yrs. in all those yrs most of the bucks we shot were spikes or forks. we did get a handful that were heavy but short on height and width. i doubt the biggest one maybe would have made p&y. i then started hunting out by litchfield and hunted out there for 10 yrs. with a smaller party we shot no less then 10 that would have made p&y and 2 that were 170 class bucks. the one big differnce was in all those yrs in litchfield i never saw a spike and we took one fork, all the other younger bucks went right to small sixes and eights. i don't believe the north woods can produce regularly true trophys. i know there are some but they are few and far between.the weight of deer were similar. anyone have any thoughts on this. was it just the area i hunted up north or is it more common to have smaller racks in the big woods?

In my experience the bigwoods deer can be a year behind their farmland cousins unless they have great genetics. Most 1.5 year old deer I see are spikes, forks and amll sixes. I'm not sure I have ever seem a 1.5 year old 8 pointer in the bigwoods but I'm sure there are a few around. What these deer lack in nutrition they can make up in time with age, in the area I hunt I have seen several deer taken between 125-150 and know of a couple of 170's but they are very rare. There is no doubt that the bigwoods is not going to produce true trophies on a regular basis but it is capable of producing some really nice deer. For the average hunter on public land a 120 deer is huge and I think that if you let those bucks grow most of them will easily hit that mark and many will exceed it.

[TimR]

laugh it up...i'm sure the biologist, wildlife managers and people that have been studying deer herds and behavior for years are full of it lol.

[smnduck]

I saw the "Bucks of Tecamate" this morning and they push this QDM thing alot. Of the heard of deer in front of the shooting stand 1 large buck they called a "shooter", 14 does and fawns milling around the feeder that just spread corn all over the dirt road they where shooting from. Notice I didn't say hunting.If that is any sign of the ratio of bucks to does than that is way lopsided compared to what the QDM guys are saying on this forum. The state of MN has a pretty good balance of regs and a healthy heard that everyone can enjoy. Not just meat hunters but horn porn guys as well. To say that there is no trophey deer here is way off base. Its hard to grow big horned deer up north without any agriculture besides tree farming. The southern part of the state has an enourmous amount of hunter to habitat preasure. Remeber that there is doe lottery areas around the state still because the deer heard is that weak. To say shoot a doe if you want to eat deer is simply not an option. Some parts of the state have an abundance of deer and maybe those areascould use a little tweaking in the regs. If the gun season should get moved out of the rut time frame then no deer hunting should take place then, including bow hunting. I understand that bowhunting is harder to harvest a deer than gun hunting but remeber that you get close to 4 months to hunt compared to 2 weeks as a gun hunter. This trophey only attitude will wreck our sport. Due as you want on passing up what ever deer you want but do not push it on others. I bow hunt and gun hunt.

[kr8r.tom]

st. louis county has more registered b&c bucks than any other county in the state.

[archerystud]

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

I grew up in Henderson and my parents still live there. Also, my dad already had another smaller property down there AND I have CHEAP rent during hunting season. The smaller property has produced one very nice deer. If I lived in SE MN I would own something there. I think most of the state has the potential to shoot the size deer I'm looking for, the deer just don't live long enough to get that big.

[FISHINGURU]

got some good news for ya TimR and Big Dave!!

Deer Management

Quality deer management in MN - is it time for a change?

There has been a lot of effort lately in Minnesota regarding the need to re-think the way the deer herd is managed.

Minnesota has had traditional management for over 30 years now, which means massive pressure on all bucks, most bucks harvested at 2 years of age or younger, and often an under-harvest of does. At one time this was somewhat needed to build up the herd, with season actually needing to be closed for a year in the early 1970’s. Now there is a huge deer herd in northwest Minnesota, the adult buck to doe ratio is very skewed toward females, which causes several problems in itself, more crop damage and deer/vehicle collisions, and the threat of disease is possible.

“What’s really kept our deer herd in control more than anything is bad winters, which we have not had since 1996-1997. Our deer herd has become out of balance within itself as well as the environment. It’s all quantity and very little quality. Many of us think its time for a change,” Clyde Stephens, president of Minnesota Quality Deer Management Inc. (QDMI), said.

Stephens conducted a survey in Northwest Minnesota in 2000 to try and find out what deer hunters wanted - 486 folks responded. Ninety percent of hunters wanted to see more mature bucks (3-year old or older), 73 percent wanted to see more does taken, and the average hunter sees a mature buck about every 15 years! Yet all but a tiny percent of the bucks in Minnesota are harvested as buttons, yearlings and two-yr old bucks, all young or immature. This scenario repeats itself year after year.

“There is a big difference between the kind of deer hunting we want and what we have. QDM closed this HUGE gap. We feel that informing hunters and non-hunters on how we created this situation is the first step toward changing it. Minnesota QDMI is not interested in blaming anyone for our current hunting atmosphere; we simply want to correct it,” Stephens said.

Deer management has to start with hunter education and management. This means changing the way people hunt!

“Every time you pull the trigger you are either helping control our herd or making things worse. Until QDM came along hunters had very little knowledge on deer management. In the old days it didn’t seem to matter, we mostly had a meat-hunter mentality. But for the last 30 years we have been filling too many of our meat tags with young bucks, and wondering why we don’t see mature bucks anymore. Why do so many hunters think its better to take a small young buck rather than a mature doe for meat? There are really two products we get when taking a deer, meat or antlers.When you shoot a small buck and throw the horns away, all you have left is venison and you just made the problem worse,” he said.

While every deer hunter would like to reap the benefits of a well-managed herd, there is a vocal segment of hunters that don’t seem ready or just don’t know how to take any firm steps toward making it happen.

Some form of newer deer management that is biologically balanced is needed. There are several other ways to achieve a quality deer herd like a buck lottery system, eliminating party hunting or enforcing a one buck limit, splitting the season with an early doe season and hunting for bucks after the rut, or closing buck season completely every couple of years. The common thread here is no matter how QDM is implemented, it requires change, and that’s hard for some folks to understand.

“When I hear someone say we don’t want to be forced to do QDM I want to say some of us have been forced to hunt by our traditional system for a long time, and that puts us at the mercy of our neighbors even if we want to practice QDM. We feel our QDM proposal has the best balance available to achieve our goals while not reducing hunter opportunities,” Stephens said.

Every state that has mandated some form of quality deer management in the rulebook has continued to do so. None have started and stopped for any reason. The concept quickly becomes very popular with hunters, landowners, and even non-hunters once they understand it with post-hunt approval ratings of over 90 percent consistently. To get to this point usually takes one hunting season and almost all of the resistance turns to excitement.

There seems to be some confusion about the antler restrictions Mn QDMI had in its proposal. After looking at all the different ways of doing QDM it was decided that for a buck to be taken the antlers would need to meet one of two criteria:

The antlers are as wide as the ears in the extended position, which would be roughly 15 to 17 inches or;

2) At least 4 points (one inch long) on one side including the main beam as one point.

This gives the hunter a chance to gauge the deer at any angle and wide rack bucks with few points could be culled. The goal is to protect yearling as well as some 2-year old bucks. Width is better than points because it is possible for a yearling buck to have 4 or 5 points on a side, but they almost never have a rack as wide as the ears.

Hunters in 14 other states have some form of antler restrictions for deer, plus there are antler restrictions on elk in some states. Even pheasant hunters in some states need to identify roosters from hens when the birds flush, and they only have a couple of seconds to do this.

“So we know hunters are capable of selective harvest, we are simply not used to this style of deer hunting here in Minnesota,” he said.

The fishing world in Minnesota went through the same battles in the 80’s. People were initially against the harvest and protective slots as well, but within a few years the benefits were being reaped and it became popular with most. The same thing will happen with deer hunting in Minnesota.

By reading all of the different articles recently published on QDM one thing seems clear. Everyone agrees it’s time for a change. That is a big step in the right direction. The Minnesota DNR and Minnesota QDMI will be holding meetings this summer and fall to gather information from the public as well as educate the public about QDM.

[TimR]

got some good news for ya TimR and Big Dave!!

Deer Management Quality deer management in MN - is it time for a change?

<gigantic, honking, snip>

That is quite the quote, FISHINGURU.

It reinforces my point that those focused on trophies to the exclusion of all else stop their research at the point where their views are reinforced. Propaganda by Clyde Stephens with no dissenting or conflicting opinions.

Post up something, preferably of your own thoughts, that address some of the issues the "meat hunters" of this thread are concerned with and I'll read it with an open mind (as I did with the above propaganda, with which I don't fully disagree). In any case, I'm finished commenting on this one.

Tim

[FISHINGURU]

all you have to do is start at page 1 and read...it's getting tiring..we've all been addressing what we think for 11 pages...there's always 2 sides to every debate.

its out of our hands and i'm happy to see the MN DNR and MN QDMI are working together and holding meetings....slowly but surely.

[Big Dave2]

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

I grew up in Henderson and my parents still live there. Also, my dad already had another smaller property down there AND I have CHEAP rent during hunting season. The smaller property has produced one very nice deer. If I lived in SE MN I would own something there. I think most of the state has the potential to shoot the size deer I'm looking for, the deer just don't live long enough to get that big.

If that is the case then what is with SE Minnesota? Do the Bucks live longer down there for some reason? If so, what is the reason?

[inspec_brad]

Originally Posted By: archerystud

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

I grew up in Henderson and my parents still live there. Also, my dad already had another smaller property down there AND I have CHEAP rent during hunting season. The smaller property has produced one very nice deer. If I lived in SE MN I would own something there. I think most of the state has the potential to shoot the size deer I'm looking for, the deer just don't live long enough to get that big.

If that is the case then what is with SE Minnesota? Do the Bucks live longer down there for some reason? If so, what is the reason?

I hear people talk about se mn alot. What is the deal with this area? I live here but I do not know what you folks are talkling about. Please clue me in on this. Thanks.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

I heard recently that Trophy Hunters are the problem with hunting today, and are giving the anti-hunting crowd fuel for their never ending crusade to end our sport.

The contention is that by getting away from subsistence hunting and trying to kill a large buck, we are showing the antis that we don't need to hunt, and only do it for bragging rights. I've heard that hunting in MN needs to get back to it's roots, and that urging the DNR to change the way they manage our deer is somehow going to ruin our deer hunting, apparently by proving to the antis that we are all a bunch of rich, snobby, pipe smoking hunters in safari hats with giant trophy rooms and snifters of scotch.

Then there is the possibility that we might someday have so many trophy bucks running around that the outfitters will come in and lease up all the land, and we will have nowhere to hunt.

In my opinion the original poster of this thread already did a good job of summing up what is wrong with the QDM arguement.

[Big Dave2]

I can copy and paste too!

Quote:

Survey finds majority oppose antler restrictions

Based on a survey of 1,000 deer hunters, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) will not pursue regulations that would restrict the harvest of bucks in four west-central counties.

Nearly 60 percent of deer hunters who responded opposed regulations aimed at increasing the number of mature bucks by restricting the harvest of bucks with fewer than four antler points on one side.

"Given that the regulation would be largely social in nature, it would be difficult to pursue without majority support from deer hunters," said Lou Cornicelli, DNR big game program coordinator. "We will continue to look at different ways of managing deer populations that incorporate biological and social aspects of deer management."

Hunters returned about 77 percent of the surveys, which were mailed to a random sample of hunters in Lac Qui Parle, Yellow Medicine, Lyon and Lincoln counties. The University of Minnesota coordinated the survey.

Mike DonCarlos, DNR wildlife programs manager, said the high rate of return for the survey indicates that deer hunting and regulation changes are very important to hunters.

"Because deer hunters care deeply about their sport, they're more likely to respond to surveys," he said. "In turn the surveys provide an accurate reflection of opinions and are generally well accepted by the hunting public."

Media Contact:

Lou Cornicelli

DNR big game program coordinator

(651) 259-5198

[propster]

I'm glad at least one participant is done commenting. I was tiring of the negativity. Who moved my cheese? I can't believe the whining about something so potentially beneficial - for everyone.

[kr8r.tom]

boone & crockett enteries & rankings 1968-1988

1. minn. 166t 115nt

2. iowa 113t 87nt

3. wisc. 96t 41nt

4. ill. 67t 40nt

boone & crockett enteries & ranings 1998-08

1. ill. 525t 391nt

2. wisc. 512t iowa 268nt

3. iowa 410t wisc. 192nt

4. sask. 359t kansas 158nt

#9 minn. 206t 126nt

someone explain the obvious to me, why wisc. and iowa doubled up on us in enteries in a 20 year period, when we're still hunting the peak of the rut, the absolute best chance to get a mature buck and they're hunting after the peak and out harvesting us in mature bucks?

in 1975 mn. only harvested 64,000 deer (bucks only,thats why we hunt the peak of the rut, does were protected to get the population up then went to doe permits when the pop. stabilized/increased late 70's) and in '71 was a closed season, due to winters of 68-69. deer populations in the 70's at 300,000 400 in the 80's now wer're a million strong and just keeping pace in number of enteries (falling off in my opinion when population is doubled)

the 1.5yr old deer aren't protected with a 3"+ spike antler restriction and a brown it's down selfish killer, itchy finger attitude (billybob teeth! they're not billybob teeth there mine! yuk yuk. wanna take some venison home?yuk yuk. you can have the stuff from last year, it's got a little freezer burn on it yuk yuk and the one rumproast you'll have to eat around that area right there didn't have that new buttout tool yuk yuk. need to make room for the 4 i shot this year yuk yuk. and that chipmunk i got brown it's down fever on yuk yuk.was able to salvage the belly meat tho yuk yuk)

now i know some families actually eat 3-5 deer a year, but most and lets be honest, barely get one finished before the next season begins, and i doubt they will be willing to give up those t-bones out of their freezer to make room for more venison. the guy who braggs up the most about how much he looooves deer meat is usually the guy making midnight runs to a dumpster or road dich somewhere or uses it for foxbait.

[FISHINGURU]

nice find big dave!

even though a small survey of 1,000 hunters in 4 counties in MN doesn't hold much weight in any given direction....it does show QDM is gaining ground.

only NEARLY 60% of the hunters in the survey opposed which is barely over half of the 77% that responded.

do you think that would of been the same turn out even as little as 5-10 yrs ago in MN?

we're comin

[FISHINGURU]

kr8r.tom - one thing not brought up much about QDM is hunter safety...it would require the brown it's down crew to actually judge their target before unloading....it would help keep billybob from just opening fire at the first movement he sees.

[kr8r.tom]

and lets not forget about soundshots!yuk yuk.

[Big Dave2]

nice find big dave!

even though a small survey of 1,000 hunters in 4 counties in MN doesn't hold much weight in any given direction....it does show QDM is gaining ground.

only NEARLY 60% of the hunters in the survey opposed which is barely over half of the 77% that responded.

do you think that would of been the same turn out even as little as 5-10 yrs ago in MN?

we're comin

Yeah, I'm afraid you might be right. It probably will catch on since everybody watches TV. The mindset of only hunting for huge trophies is perpetuated every day on TV. And with todays younger people always looking for an "easier way", legislation for deer size to help allow ANYONE to get theier trophy is bound to be the next step.

What most don't understand is that it is just a marketing gimmick. If hunters today would step back and get back to the roots of hunting they would see that antlers and expensive gear mean nothing in the grand scheme of life. I can put meat in the freezer with just a $200 shotgun and an orange vest, but these marketing companies will get you to spend thousands on their gear so that you can shoot big bucks, which taste no different(ok maybe worse)than a smaller buck or a doe.

[96trigger]

Big Dave, I don't think the DNR will enact any type of restriction in areas that don't have a healthy deer population. It makes sense that a QDM organization will promote QDM and make it sound like its the greatest thinkg since sliced bread, and that everyone should want it. I will not be surprised if the South East part of the state goes to antler restrictions. Unfortuneately, I feel that if the rest of the state doesn't follow, there will be an influx of deer hunters to the area after a few seasons, as the little bucks get passed on, more bucks get to a mature age, but I think there will still be a lot of little 8 pointers that get shot.

I understand what you are saying about the marketing gimmick. There is some truth to that. I won't go out and buy the latest and greatest, I'm always a few years behind. I want to know it works before I spend my hard earned money. A couple of my relatives shoot very nice benelli SBEII with Leopold scopes and rifled barrels. I shoot a Winchester 1300 speed pump I bought to pound the brush with . This past year, it was the 1300 with 3 deer, the SBEII's had a combined 0.

[inspec_brad]

Nobody will tell me what the fascination with the south east part of the state is. Someone chime in here please. For the record: I feel that certain areas can no longer support the 5 deer per person anymore(347). I would like to see something changed in this area. I do not have all the answers, or know what will work for sure. I just feel that something needs to change in this area, and the way it sounds from reading on this site, there could be more areas that need some adjusting.

[96trigger]

Bull, where are you hunting in 347? SEMN has a great deer population, with some age structure. Probably due to the fact the deer have so many places to hide in the bluffs and valleys. A national magazine just recognized two counties in SEMN as being in an area that is the best "unheard of" area for taking trophy whitetails. I'm not sure what more you want. Do you want us to go and find the deer for you? I don't hear a lot of people from SEMN complaining.. I know that other parts of the state don't have it as good as we do.