Trophy Hunters, Friend or Foe?

[Big Dave2]

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

[96trigger]

Quote:

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

Yes, and I believe that it is helping. During the 3A season, some areas can apply for doe permits. The number of does seen during 3B has been down since this was introduced, but the number of mature buck sightings has greatly increased. We have to hunt a lot harder for deer. This was the first year in a long time that neither my Dad, or Uncle shot a deer, but I got three, so our average stayed the same. Once again, the DNR got something right.

[kr8r.tom]

i googled "if its brown its down" the answer was: 1-does & fawns and an ocassional chipmunk due to brown its down fever(don't waste that bellie meat) and 2-small antlered deer for small minded people

[Black_Bay]

Originally Posted By: Black_Bay

Earn a buck isn't used there as a way to get bigger bucks, which is the topic of this thread.

what is the purpose of EAB?

Wisconsin uses EAB to reduce the population. It forces everyone to shoot a doe so they have that slim chance at a Boone and Crockett buck all of us are sure is going to appear at any moment. In layman's terms it makes you do something you might not want to order to do something you want to do. Or a better example might be eat your brussel sprouts and then you can have ice cream.

[Pickelfarmer]

i googled "if its brown its down" the answer was: 1-does & fawns and an ocassional chipmunk due to brown its down fever(don't waste that bellie meat) and 2-small antlered deer for small minded people

K tom your so smart , I cant beleave you dont have your own hunting show. I looked up all your posts and I've learned that well.... Nothin. all I got was a bunch of disagreement and smart asss responces.

[kr8r.tom]

when it hits a nerve ....Boy

[Pickelfarmer]

when it hits a nerve ....Boy

Yeah.....BOY

[FISHINGURU]

If the doe to buck ratio is so out of wack and the "brown it's down" crew as some of you call it are out there shooting the first deer they see, then wouldn't it make sense that these guys would be harvesting more does than bucks anyway?

in theory sure...but in reality alot of them doe's are nub bucks and during the rut when shotgun season is alot of deer on the move are immature bucks...the week before shotgun every year i see more immature bucks then doe's or mature bucks.

there's a good chance that the first deer you see is an immature buck....they get kicked out of their family group...they get kicked out of every area by a bigger buck...and they have an urge to breed...they are the animal most on their feet by far.

[Hoyt4]

EAB was put in affect because hunters would not take any does.A lot of these areas had a larger deer herd and needed does taken but most the hunters would not.So that EAB started so they had to take a doe first.I know now they have the problem of hunters in these areas not all but a few grabbing road kill and bringing them in to be registered so they can shoot a buck.

[Big Dave2]

If we manged deer here in Minnesota the way that it has been suggested on this post in order to achieve the goal of larger and more mature bucks, wouldn't the MN DNR be forced to implement some sort of earn-a-buck system? If there were all of these monster bucks walking around the woods, would anyone shoot a doe? I doubt it.

[96trigger]

I think that is the exact problem wisconsin had. I don't see that being the problem in Minnesota. There are lot of people that like venison and will shoot does. I know in Sconny, it was really looked down upon to shoot a small buck, and it was even worse to shoot a doe. I don't know if we would have that mentality here or not. I know that we have lots of time and opportunity to take more than one deer. I will try and get out this weekend to get another doe. I have no problem with it.

(BTW, I worked in Wisconsin for 4 years on a dairy farm through High School and most of college. They were big farmers and hunters in Buffalo County, they would rather go without than shoot a small buck or a doe, I can totally see why EAB had to implemented)

[Bear55]

First off, you are right Michigan and Wisconsin have more hunters than we do, but in Michigan roughly 6.7% of the population hunts. In Minnesota the number is 9.6%. Michigan has about twice as many people so you can't just compare the number of licenses sold. However, both states lag far behind Wisconsin which is about 15% of the population buying licenses.

As far as the "worthless ground" argument. You must have little experience in farm country. Areas that contain a high percentage of crop land and a low percentage of timber/set aside areas have a very hard time holding deer after the crops are gone and like you mentioned once pressure is applied it gets worse.

Coach my point was that both their gun seasons are later in the year and they get out and hunt them regaurdless of the weather or % of licences to population. I can't speak about the farmland you hunt but I'm sure if their cover is gone they move to a better area but in terms of worthless ground you may be talking about a small farm while I was talking more the size of a deers home range over a few miles. If the deer don't have any pressure during the rut they won't vanish later in the year when many of us are hoping the rifle opener gets moved.

[nolte]

trigger is right, EAB was put in place because hunters wouldn't shoot any does. They got in the mindset that the more does that hang around, the more bucks that will be around too. Which is actually counter-prodcutive, because the bucks will move much less. It was very effective in areas that have a lot more private land than public.

[groundswatter]

nolte,your right on.But a family of four that has only one person hunting,and both bowhunts and riflehunts has to shoot a doe or most of the time a button buck with each weapon to shoot a buck again with each weapon.Now how many deer can a family of 4 eat.Thats part of the problem too.I'll be honest my family of 4 can eat 2 deer a year,I dont believe in shooting and donating to food pantrys,why kill just to kill.What ever Minn does cant be compared to a state that allows baiting.Deer movement just dont happen here in wis untill the rut.I myself hate the baiting here,it keeps too many deer in areas that cant support the #

[96trigger]

Groundswatter, from what I understood of the EAB rule, once you got a doe, your EAB tag was good for any season. If I shot a doe with my bow, my Buck tag would be good for firearm season also. Can anyone else verify this? I'll look on the website.

[96trigger]

Quote:

But a family of four that has only one person hunting,and both bowhunts and riflehunts has to shoot a doe or most of the time a button buck with each weapon to shoot a buck again with each weapon.

I reread your post and understand whay you are saying, if that is the case, he should just be done after bow season. No one is making him go both the firearm and archery. If he earns his buck sticker during archery, he can either wait for a buck during archery, or save his sticker for firearm. I don't know why that is a problem, unless of course, he is only hunting for antlers and wants to tag more than one buck a year.

[FISHINGURU]

If we manged deer here in Minnesota the way that it has been suggested on this post in order to achieve the goal of larger and more mature bucks, wouldn't the MN DNR be forced to implement some sort of earn-a-buck system? If there were all of these monster bucks walking around the woods, would anyone shoot a doe? I doubt it.

well why would they all wait for a monster buck when they could fill a tag and get their meat? you can't eat the horns and doe's come much easier....now all of a sudden the meat hunters would hold out for big bucks cause there is more around when the whole argument is they hunt for the freezer?

so basically they don't want to have to go through the change and maybe not get as many deer for a couple years....but if there's big bucks more frequently now they have the patience to wait..even know you can't eat horns and old bucks taste gross?

you guys talkin about your kids...imagine if this was already in place years ago and now your kid would have a better chance at getting a big buck.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

well why would they all wait for a monster buck when they could fill a tag and get their meat? you can't eat the horns and doe's come much easier....now all of a sudden the meat hunters would hold out for big bucks cause there is more around when the whole argument is they hunt for the freezer?

so basically they don't want to have to go through the change and maybe not get as many deer for a couple years....but if there's big bucks more frequently now they have the patience to wait..even know you can't eat horns and old bucks taste gross?

you guys talkin about your kids...imagine if this was already in place years ago and now your kid would have a better chance at getting a big buck.

[archerystud]

But you are telling me that the majority of hunters want to shoot big bucks. If this is true why would a trophy hunter ever shoot a doe especially if in an area where you are only allowed 1 deer and if there were no party hunting. Would you shoot a doe ever? I doubt it. Then the doe to buck population would be even more lopsided. By what you are stating, us good 'ole meat hunters would be the only ones ever taking does and we are the minority, right?

Well I consider myself a trophy hunter and I'm glad to take a doe. I've shot way more does than bucks over the last 10 years that's for sure. Fill a freezer with a doe and hold out for a buck is typically what I do.

When did MN disallow party hunting anyway?

[FISHINGURU]

well a hunter would have to shoot a doe if there was EAB..regaurdless if they are a meat hunter or a mature whitetail hunter.

it would be safe to say the majority of hunters in MN are meat hunters anyway..although everyone would love to shoot a mature buck...mature buck hunters are in no way more common then your average deer hunter...so there would be plenty of people still shooting doe's even if there was no EAB.

so there would be nothing making anything more lopsided...its impossible.

the point of this conversation is our point that the majority of hunters shoot the first thing they see...which in most cases is the immature bucks... which makes the herd lopsided and doesn't let bucks live to a mature age.

no one said you want your kid to get a big buck right away...but any kid would have more fun out hunting knowing he has a better chance to get a big buck...anyone for that matter.

you act like if there was some sort of system put in place boone and crockets would be running all over the place and everyone gets to shoot big bucks...its not like that....even in places where they let little bucks walk and shoot doe's for meat and for herd management and also have food plots you still have to hunt hard for a true bruiser...in the movies them guys sit for a week straight from sun up to sun down and don't even fill their tags...its not like you go sit for a couple hours and have booners all around ya.

you'd still see tons of immature buck...even more since they would be somehow protected or harder to be able to shoot them...the only thing is you would see more bigger average size deer cause they would be aloud to get older....that would be MY accomplishment...and the whole point of the conversation.

i'm happy if everyone has a better chance at bigger bucks..i'm not an elite hunter that wants to shoot all the big bucks to myself...i want the herd to be how it should be and let immature bucks get older.

no matter what the average size of bucks are around there are still the special ones as you put it...the small ones would be bigger..the medium ones would be bigger...and the special ones would be bigger.

[96trigger]

I would probably be happier than my kid if he shot a big buck right away. I'm pretty sure that would get him hooked immediately. Every young student that I have ever taught that shot a nice buck early, got hooked and I believe, is still hunting today. Why someone wouldn't want there child to shoot a big buck is beyond me. I'd let my kid have a crack at a bruiser. Might actually get him. I don't think he'd be disappointed, he might even learn to let the little bucks walk.

BD2, I am having a hard time following what you are saying. I don't know which direction you are headed. I also hunt hard for a trophy buck, but that is not all that I shoot. I have shot over 25 deer in the past 18 years, only 5 have been bucks, only one has been mature. Over the past 5 years, I have really changed my way of thinking about the bucks I shoot even though I am hunting alot of state land.

Also, you keep throwing in the one deer limit. If MN was "forced to go to Earn a Buck" as you say there would obviously not be a one deer limit, more likely a 5 deer limit. EAB has been, and would be instituted in areas to reduce an overpopulation, not for buck management. EAB would be the wrong move in MN, as would any restrictions in any area other than a Intensive Harvest. I'd hate to see that go to EAB. I don't see that many deer.

[Big Dave2]

I would probably be happier than my kid if he shot a big buck right away. I'm pretty sure that would get him hooked immediately. Every young student that I have ever taught that shot a nice buck early, got hooked and I believe, is still hunting today. Why someone wouldn't want there child to shoot a big buck is beyond me. I'd let my kid have a crack at a bruiser. Might actually get him. I don't think he'd be disappointed, he might even learn to let the little bucks walk.

BD2, I am having a hard time following what you are saying. I don't know which direction you are headed. I also hunt hard for a trophy buck, but that is not all that I shoot. I have shot over 25 deer in the past 18 years, only 5 have been bucks, only one has been mature. Over the past 5 years, I have really changed my way of thinking about the bucks I shoot even though I am hunting alot of state land.

Also, you keep throwing in the one deer limit. If MN was "forced to go to Earn a Buck" as you say there would obviously not be a one deer limit, more likely a 5 deer limit. EAB has been, and would be instituted in areas to reduce an overpopulation, not for buck management. EAB would be the wrong move in MN, as would any restrictions in any area other than a Intensive Harvest. I'd hate to see that go to EAB. I don't see that many deer.

That's Ok, I am sure that I am hard to follow. I am certainly not a professional writer!

But I also can't follow some of you guys either because in one post I am told that I should just shoot 1 deer and that party hunting should be outlawed, then in another, you are telling me that there should be a 5 deer limit.

I also think that you guys miss my point on the fact that the bigger the bucks that you have the bigger that you will want. Read the outdoor news, we already have some bruisers in this state. If thats what you want go find them. Its just like Walleye fishing. Should every lake hold an abundance of 10 lb walleyes? I doubt that would work out. And if every lake did hold lots of them, how big of an accomplishment would it be to catch one?

All I am saying is that I am not for any more restrictions then we already have. The only thing I probably wouldn't complain too much about is if the gun season was moved back, because I couldn't care less when I hunt. I'm just not for antler restrictions or abolishing party hunting, or earn-a-buck either as far as that goes.

[Big Dave2]

When did MN disallow party hunting anyway?

soon, if this bunch gets it's way

[MUSKYMAN1011]

No more party Hutin!

No more feeding the deer!

No more grunt calls!

No more Doe urine!

No more shooting bucks unless they go 150 or better!

$1.000.00 fine if you shoot one that goes under 150!

[archerystud]

But I also can't follow some of you guys either because in one post I am told that I should just shoot 1 deer and that party hunting should be outlawed, then in another, you are telling me that there should be a 5 deer limit.

[Big Dave2]

I'm not looking for monster whitetails and I'd never expect to shoot one every year. Some areas of the state are good for trophies but IMO most of the state is not. My land taxes (real close to where BD2 lives actually) are jumping up again and all I use the land for is hunting. In five years of owning the land I haven't seen a 125 inch buck down there by me, my hunting party or any of my cameras. All I'm asking is to catch one on that property every 3-5 years.

I'd just like to see this state get more P&Y minimum white tail bucks, they don't have to be monsters.

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

If I owned a lake shore lot on Lake O'Dowd should I expect it to have the same population of large walleyes, small mouth and muskies as Mille Lacs? No, that would be preposterous. If I want to fish big walleyes then I need to go to another lake. If I want numbers of small crappies and sunnies with a few northerns and bass mixed in then I am in the right place. Every area has it's strong suits. SE Minnesota seems to do just fine producing trophy white tails with our current regulations. Maybe the rest of the state isn't suited for producing such a population of large antlered deer?

[Big Dave2]

No more party Hutin!

No more feeding the deer!

No more grunt calls!

No more Doe urine!

No more shooting bucks unless they go 150 or better!

$1.000.00 fine if you shoot one that goes under 150!

How about elevated stands and gun scopes?

[MUSKYMAN1011]

Elevated stands are OK ! Yes

Gun scopes?? thats a tough call, the Jury is still out.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: archerystud

I'm not looking for monster whitetails and I'd never expect to shoot one every year. Some areas of the state are good for trophies but IMO most of the state is not. My land taxes (real close to where BD2 lives actually) are jumping up again and all I use the land for is hunting. In five years of owning the land I haven't seen a 125 inch buck down there by me, my hunting party or any of my cameras. All I'm asking is to catch one on that property every 3-5 years.

I'd just like to see this state get more P&Y minimum white tail bucks, they don't have to be monsters.

I see what you are saying, but I guess I could ask, why do you own land there then? Why not buy land down in SE Minnesota or Wisconsin if you want it to be a trophy whitetail factory?

If I owned a lake shore lot on Lake O'Dowd should I expect it to have the same population of large walleyes, small mouth and muskies as Mille Lacs? No, that would be preposterous. If I want to fish big walleyes then I need to go to another lake. If I want numbers of small crappies and sunnies with a few northerns and bass mixed in then I am in the right place. Every area has it's strong suits. SE Minnesota seems to do just fine producing trophy white tails with our current regulations. Maybe the rest of the state isn't suited for producing such a population of large antlered deer?

Actually I would say most of the state is well suited to grow large deer. A lot of people feel that their area can't grow nice bucks but all they need is a little time. Sure they may not be record book deer but I think if they get to the proper age just about any buck out there is going to be a trophy to someone. Sure their might be some genetic freaks with small racks but I think they are few and far between. I spend most of my time in the bigwoods and I think we all know there are some big bucks up there. However there also isn't much for agriculture or highly nutritional food, so how do these deer get so big? The answer is age, they have enough remote land that some of them make it through rifle season.

[groundswatter]

Setting the record straight.In any eab unit you have to shoot a doe before you shoot a buck.If you want to shoot a buck with a bow you have to shoot a doe first.If you want to shoot a buck with the rifle you can either not shoot a buck with your bow and use that doe you shot with your bow as eab.But if you want to shoot 2 bucks one with each weapon then you have to shoot 2 does