Deer hunting as it should (could) be

[Wapiti]

wapiti I am staying on point with numbers. if you dont have the numbers you can have selective harvest and get those big bucks people wont know if they are going to see another deer so they will shoot whatever it is regardless. I think we have to look at the numbers too. its an important part of managing the herd

hh, i agree that overall herd numbers are important...pretty hard to have mature deer if you have no deer! But there are many variables involved with a state's harvest numbers for a particular year. Do lower harvest numbers for a state mean it has more/less mature bucks than the state it's being compared to?

[Big Dave2]

So you say that it's about the hunt, not the killing...I agree! So in your scenerio, if you have a shot opportunity on opening morning and you have the one tag to use (no party hunting) then you won't feel bad about letting it walk as you have all week to hunt and you don't want to tag out early because there will be no motivation to stay on stand. Remembering that you said it's all about the hunt, doesn't that strike you as a hair contradictory? I feel sorry for anyone that needs more motivation for being on stand than just seeing nature "happen" in the woods, fields, swamps, etc. Here's a scenerio, I probably get to bowhunt 60 days or so in a long season and I get one buck tag, if I shoot a buck early on, I'm done. So do I just skip going hunting the first 40 days knowing that I will have to probably pass on many deer hoping to shoot something bigger and also extending my season? To answer, No, because I enjoy the heck out of being there and seeing these deer. Remember, it's about the hunt, not the killing!

I have never and I would assume, will never consider myself a trophy hunter and this arguement, in my opinion, has not much to do with pleasing these "trophy hunters", it's about the management of the states deer herd.

Barnez, great point about being proud of your state, but once again, that's not even close to the point being discussed here!

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

Originally Posted By: Powerstroke

I thought it was all about the hunt, not the killing? If that's the case then what fun would it be for me to shoot a deer on opening morning when I am going to be at deer camp for a week? Do I just go home? I don't think I would have very much motivation to sit in a stand with just a camera when it is 10 degrees outside.

In my opinion I think it would be a mistake to start messing with these regulations such as antler size and party hunting just to please trophy hunters. The DNR is trying to entice more people into the dying sport, not keep people away.

I would say that if it is all about the trophy, wouldn't it mean more if it were a once in a lifetime type thing? I don't expect to catch a 10 lb walleye every time I go out. If I did it would no longer be that exciting anyway. Why should we expect to shoot a 12 pointer every year. [/quote']

First of all I hunt for meat. I could care less about the horns. A huge buck would be nice but our group hunts as a group to gather meat for the freezer. That is OUR philosophy, I'm not saying it has to be yours.

But if I were a trophy hunter and I saw one of those huge deer on opening morning that you say do not exist in minnesota like other states then how could you turn down a perfect broadside shot at a 170 class deer. If there are so few of them around you better not pass it up because the chances are you will not get another shot at one EVER, let alone this year.

Just curious, how many times have you sat in a deer stand during rifle season without a gun in your hand? If I just want to see "nature happen" I will go out on a lot warmer day and do that. Not in early december which is when rifle season would be if you guys had your way about changing the season to be after the rut is over. You can feel sorry for me all you want but it would be too darn cold for me!

[Wapiti]

Originally Posted By: Wapiti

So you say that it's about the hunt, not the killing...I agree! So in your scenerio, if you have a shot opportunity on opening morning and you have the one tag to use (no party hunting) then you won't feel bad about letting it walk as you have all week to hunt and you don't want to tag out early because there will be no motivation to stay on stand. Remembering that you said it's all about the hunt, doesn't that strike you as a hair contradictory? I feel sorry for anyone that needs more motivation for being on stand than just seeing nature "happen" in the woods, fields, swamps, etc. Here's a scenerio, I probably get to bowhunt 60 days or so in a long season and I get one buck tag, if I shoot a buck early on, I'm done. So do I just skip going hunting the first 40 days knowing that I will have to probably pass on many deer hoping to shoot something bigger and also extending my season? To answer, No, because I enjoy the heck out of being there and seeing these deer. Remember, it's about the hunt, not the killing!

I have never and I would assume, will never consider myself a trophy hunter and this arguement, in my opinion, has not much to do with pleasing these "trophy hunters", it's about the management of the states deer herd.

Barnez, great point about being proud of your state, but once again, that's not even close to the point being discussed here!

Originally Posted By: Big Dave2

I thought it was all about the hunt, not the killing? If that's the case then what fun would it be for me to shoot a deer on opening morning when I am going to be at deer camp for a week? Do I just go home? I don't think I would have very much motivation to sit in a stand with just a camera when it is 10 degrees outside.

In my opinion I think it would be a mistake to start messing with these regulations such as antler size and party hunting just to please trophy hunters. The DNR is trying to entice more people into the dying sport, not keep people away.

I would say that if it is all about the trophy, wouldn't it mean more if it were a once in a lifetime type thing? I don't expect to catch a 10 lb walleye every time I go out. If I did it would no longer be that exciting anyway. Why should we expect to shoot a 12 pointer every year. [/quote']

First of all I hunt for meat. I could care less about the horns. A huge buck would be nice but our group hunts as a group to gather meat for the freezer. That is OUR philosophy, I'm not saying it has to be yours.

But if I were a trophy hunter and I saw one of those huge deer on opening morning that you say do not exist in minnesota like other states then how could you turn down a perfect broadside shot at a 170 class deer. If there are so few of them around you better not pass it up because the chances are you will not get another shot at one EVER, let alone this year.

Just curious, how many times have you sat in a deer stand during rifle season without a gun in your hand? If I just want to see "nature happen" I will go out on a lot warmer day and do that. Not in early december which is when rifle season would be if you guys had your way about changing the season to be after the rut is over. You can feel sorry for me all you want but it would be too darn cold for me!

I hunt for meat as well, we will go through 3+ deer this year...all of those 3 deer in the freezer as of now are does. I still have a buck tag available because I chose not to shoot one of the bucks I have had a chance to shoot this year so to answer your question, I haven't had to sit in my stand without my gun because of that choice(s) i made earlier. I do still have venison though don't I? I would shoot that 170 on opening morning and know that I had a great "hunt", albeit too short for my liking but that's the way things worked out...why is it that people couldn't be satisfied with that? Is it knowing that because you are not out in the stand after you've tagged out, that your party might not get their limit without your help?

[BARNEZ]

Hey, I can't help that throphy hunters and shed hunters are not finding what their after. As I said on earlier posts I have no problem finding big deer in Minnesota. Maybe I'm lucky Maybe I'm good, but I put alot of time in scouting. I do see Monster bucks out there during scouting, sometimes they are not there during Deer season. Deer in Minnesota are just smarter then anywhere else,which creates a challenge, that some people just cant handle. The terrian is different up here with acres and acres of thick woods, huge swamps,which they are most likely laying down until night comes. I dont have any problem with trophy hunters at all,but I do know they all like it the easy way!

[Wapiti]

Hey, I can't help that throphy hunters and shed hunters are not finding what their after. As I said on earlier posts I have no problem finding big deer in Minnesota. Maybe I'm lucky Maybe I'm good, but I put alot of time in scouting. I do see Monster bucks out there during scouting, sometimes they are not there during Deer season. Deer in Minnesota are just smarter then anywhere else,which creates a challenge, that some people just cant handle. The terrian is different up here with acres and acres of thick woods, huge swamps,which they are most likely laying down until night comes. I dont have any problem with trophy hunters at all,but I do know they all like it the easy way!

Now deer in MN have been deemed "smarter" than other whitetail deer that reside in other states? Wow, that's a scientific breakthrough! Great rebuttal! Oh my goodness!

[Big Dave2]

I would shoot that 170 on opening morning and know that I had a great "hunt", albeit too short for my liking but that's the way things worked out...why is it that people couldn't be satisfied with that? Is it knowing that because you are not out in the stand after you've tagged out, that your party might not get their limit without your help?

[BARNEZ]

They say deer in other states are just walking during the day in open feilds. Makes me wonder why they only do that here before and after gun season, it tells me that they are just a little smarter during the season. Smart a--

[slimngrizzly]

Its because every deer in MN knows if it shows itself in daylight its going to have a bullets with its name on it! Especially if it has 3" or more of bone on its scalp!

[Crappie Rage]

For you meat hunters. Let's say we just went to antler restrictions.

Again, after one year there are essentially the same number of deer available to be shot. And now instead of a 110 pound forkhorn, you get to shoot a 175 pound 8 pointer. You can still throw the rack away after you clean your deer and you still get more meat out of the deal.

How can you lose??

[bigbucks]

Big Dave2, just so you understand that is exactly what happens in many other states. I went on a week long trip to WY to hunt Mule deer, our actual hunt started on a Wednesday, we were planning to hunt as late as Saturday. We started walking from our wheelers I think around 7:15 & I shot a nice buck at 7:30, my hunt was over. I could go out & help spot deer, do pushes, etc., but I could not carry a rifle. I still had a great trip. I was the camp xxxx, let's just say worker for the rest of the trip, but you can imagine the actual terms used.

I don't think that alone is a huge reason to not have party hunting. If you have a spot that's so good you're always filling your tag opening morning & couldn't hunt once your tag was full, you could sit with the hunter in your party you like the most in your stand & they could shoot the next one.

I'm not necessarily advocating the no party hunting thing, although I wouldn't really be opposed to it either. I'm just saying that's a very common practice used by other states & people seem to be very happy with it.

[Powerstroke]

I'm just asking, what would I do then? What if I am hunting at the shack in northern MN and planning to stay a week? What do I do every day if I can no longer hunt? This is a primitive shack and I love it but I would go stir crazy if I had to sit in the shack and do nothing but stoke the fire all day. Do we all have to drive separate in case someone shoots a deer too early so they can just go home and miss out on the fun that is hunting and deer camp? If you are on a week long Canadian fishing trip and you catch your limit the first day do you just sit and watch the other guys fish the rest of the week?

This is a perfect example of why your personal opinion doesn't make sense to some including me.

The idea to end party hunting would mean that every person is responsible for their own deer. There is nothing controversial in that. What is controversial is tell someone that they are not allowed to shoot as many deer as they see during their hunt as long as their are still tags in people's pockets. I think each person is responsible for their own tag.

Party hunting is legal so I can't tell you to not to do it.

Part of what I don't understand that you are willing to sit outside just long enough to shoot your deer. You love deer camp, but not enough to stay there once your tag is full? Unless of course you can continue to shoot your gun and fill someone else's tag and deprive them of that opportunity. If that's the arrangement of your group that's fine, it works for you.

I'm totally fine with you shooting a trophy on opening morning. I don't care when the deer gets shot, but I think if you choose to shoot a deer on opener than you should understand that you are done hunting for that year (if party hunting was stopped). It's not a radical idea, its used in many other states, in fact MN is one of the few that allow it.

I also agree that the "meat hunter" concept goes out the window after the first year. So there will be some early "growing pains" with a new system , but if you restricted people to shooting a buck with at least 3-points on one side, you allow younger bucks to walk one year, you increase the likelyhood hunters will have to identify their targets reducing the number of illegally taken does and the number of hunter accidents. This will mean more deer in the woods, antlered or not. Since "meat hunters" don't care about the horns, than they won't be affected by the change all that much.

And of course your example of fishing in Canada. You would keep one less than your limit and fish the rest of the week hoping to catch that last fish on the last day. That's what you would do.

[Powerstroke]

I'm not trying to judge you, you just raise a point that many people share. I'm trying to address your idea, not your person.

My suggestion of hunting with that camera comes from the way we turkey hunt and elk hunt. There is one tag per person and no party hunting. If someone gets their animal then they can shadow one of the other hunters and photo/video the hunt, call for them or just share the woods with someone. To me, that's the fun and joy of a hunt camp and a hunt in general.

[tedl]

Do some cooking and cleaning or start butchering the deer you already have. There is plenty to do around the deer shack.

[tedl]

Also be available to help the others get there deer out of the woods and hung up.

[Eskimoman]

In minnesota, other than lottery areas, you can buy BONUS TAGS. You can still hunt after you shoot your buck for does. While I am totally against antler point restrictions, stopping party hunting would good. It would hlp save alot of deer and keep people from buying wives tags which is breaking the law.

[Big Dave2]

Well I guess you can have your opinion and I can have mine and I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other.

I just think you will have a hard time convincing a DNR that is trying to recruit more hunters into the sport to put even more restrictions on it. These things you speak of like party hunting are Minnesota traditions just as much as hunting itself is a Minnesota tradition. I think if you took the pulse of the average deer hunter you would find more that think like me than that think like you.

Just my opinion.

[Big Dave2]

Quote:

Great post. My response is that the road to [PoorWordUsage] is paved with good intentions and I think that the QDM and the catch and release crowd is going to usher in some bad times for hunting and fishing, while having good intentions.

The further we get away from just going out and catching a stringer of fish to eat and keep moving towards catching fish only to release is when we've really armed our enemies with tools to question our ethics. Would you shoot a deer with a tranquilizer gun, snap some photos and then revive it for release?

When we only care about shooting large inedible-antlered deer and focus less on getting outdoors for the experience with hopes of shooting some venison for the freezer, we've left our outdoor heritage behind and we've opened the doors again for our enemies to question what exactly it is that we're doing out there. Do we need to only harvest deer with "six points on each side" that are so old and tough that we do nothing more than cape it out and cut the head off for mounting and leave the rest?

I think many of you have lost your way and need to start thinking about what it is we're doing and what we want hunting and fishing to be. If we don't, this picture painted might sound like the good old days by 2050.

This quote was writen by FM member Piker. It was originally posted in the deer hunting forum in a thread titled "Deer hunting in 2050" I hope Piker doesn't mind me quoting it here but I think he does a good job of summing up how I feel about the heritage of hunting in Minnesota.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

That is a superb post! I feel the same way about our future!

[Powerstroke]

Well I guess you can have your opinion and I can have mine and I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other.

I just think you will have a hard time convincing a DNR that is trying to recruit more hunters into the sport to put even more restrictions on it. These things you speak of like party hunting are Minnesota traditions just as much as hunting itself is a Minnesota tradition. I think if you took the pulse of the average deer hunter you would find more that think like me than that think like you.

Just my opinion.

I completely agree with everything you said. I said it earlier in fact. Part of the problem with change is that so many things are completely a part of the MN hunting tradition.

I'm not trying to convince you of my way of thinking. I don't expect you to change your ideas at all.

I am not fully on board with antler-restrictions either, but we do have one here. It says a legal buck must have one spike at least 3" long.

Restricting party hunting wouldn't change the rate of hunters gained, but it might cost us a few hunters who think hunting is only fun if they can shoot as many deer as they have tags and sometimes deer that no one has a tag for like the guy who shoots one for his wife who isn't hunting.

I think the best thing to keep little Johnny interested is letting him fill his own tag rather than having uncle Bill shoot his deer for him because he saw one first.

[Big Dave2]

Restricting party hunting wouldn't change the rate of hunters gained, but it might cost us a few hunters who think hunting is only fun if they can shoot as many deer as they have tags and sometimes deer that no one has a tag for like the guy who shoots one for his wife who isn't hunting.

I think the best thing to keep little Johnny interested is letting him fill his own tag rather than having uncle Bill shoot his deer for him because he saw one first.

If the guys wife isn't hunting, which is what I think you are getting at, then he would already be illegal. More legislation is not going to stop people who are going to be unlawfull anyway. This scenario could and would still happen no matter if party hunting is legal or illegal.

Another way to keep little Johnny interested is to allow him to actually shoot something without having to make sure it has enough antler points on it. In the places that I hunt we are lucky to just see any deer let alone monster bucks.

I think hunting and fishing needs to return to it's roots or it will be lost forever someday.

[uplander]

Traditions.........were made to be broken!!!!!!!!

[DaveT]

First of all I want to thank everyone for taking the time to discuss a topic that I feel is very important. Most of your posts were well written and no matter your opinion on the topic, I think that discussing it civilly in this sort of venue can only leed to positive outcomes.

I would like to give my final thoughts on it, as I think it has run it's course.

I've read several times that I should hunt or scout smarter, that MN has plenty of trophy bucks, I'm lazy and I want to kill them the easy way.

In my opinion, there is no easier way to kill a deer than with a scoped rifle or shotgun. That is why I only hunt with a bow. I have 4 separate metro hunting spots, all are private land, ranging from 10 to 80 acres. This year I spent several weekends scouting, hanging sets, and turning up ground and planting food plots. I never once hunted a set with a bad wind, I made sure I was as scent free as possible, and I make every effort to not educate the deer that I hunt. I'd like you to tell my wife that I don't spend enough time and energy on scouting and hunting, but you may want to borrow Niklas Backstrom's goalie equipment before you do. If I was lazy or only concerned with bragging about shooting big bucks, I would just bait, trespass, or hunt at night. There is a great sense of accomplishment from doing things the right way, and that is where I get my thrill.

There are trophy bucks in MN, one need only to open the Outdoor News and you will see dozens in every issue for the next few months. My contention is there could be a lot more with a few changes to the rules.

I've also read that I should be proud and content with the hunting I have here now, and if I don't like it, I should continue to leave the state and hunt where the big bucks come easy.

Rest assured, I will continue hunting out of state. None of the big bucks I have ever shot have come easily, they have come easier than MN, but I still spend multiple weekends out of state every year, doing the same things I do around here. Hanging sets, planting/maintaining food plots, securing hunting permission, even putting up barbed wire fence for our farmer in Iowa. I work just as hard for my out of state bucks as I do for my MN bucks, the only difference is I see a lot more of them out of state.

I am proud to be a Minnesotan, however if you told me that I've been drinking contaminated water for the last 20 years and I should continue to drink it because it's Minnesota water, I'd tell you to pass the Aquafina. If you are happy with mediocrity, good for you, our world leaders need more followers just like you.

Lastly, I've read that antler restrictions will lead to lower recruitment rates, and stopping the party hunting is unfair.

I personally don't think antler restrictions are necessary if we implement the other things, but I wouldn't be opposed to them either. It would be very simple to write the law so that hunters under the age of 16? 18? 20? are allowed to harvest any buck, and only impose the restriction on older, and presumably more experienced hunters. As far as the party hunting tradition is concerned, the most unfair thing I can imagine is little Johnny or Susie not being able to shoot their first buck because uncle JimBob just shot his 121st, 122nd and 123rd forkhorn. We are not allowed to shoot each others ducks or pheasants, why can we shoot each others deer? If you can't see the logic in shooting your own deer, I don't have the skills to educate you on this one.

This entire thread is about improving the deer hunting in MN for everyone, not just trophy hunters. By managing your herd for age classes, you spread the harvest out through those age classes, which results in more bucks of all ages for all of us to hunt, trophy or meat hunter. I guarantee you will see more deer, more bucks, and have more fun deer hunting than you ever have before.

[Big Dave2]

Traditions.........were made to be broken!!!!!!!!

Thats exactly what the anti's want to hear. Hunting in general is a tradition that they would like to break.

[shorebird]

I have a couple of head mounts on the wall at my cabin. I am sure they would not compare to yours, but I am happy with them. A few years ago I decieded that I have shot enough bucks. I have passed up many nice anmials since then, and have allowed a lot of kids to take there first hunt on my property. In the last 5 years seven youth have taken there first deer (six of them bucks) on my land. I can tell you that in each case I felt better seeing the excitement on there faces then I do looking at my wall mounts.

I think that everyone should ask themselves before they go out hunting " If everyone would do this would we be better or worst off" If that happened we wouldn't need new laws.

I do not mean to upset anyone but the next time you see that trophy buck ask yourself how good you would feel if you were to give someone on there first hunt a chance to harvest that anmial.

Good luck hunting!

[Pickelfarmer]

Originally Posted By: BARNEZ

By the way what is a good recipe for antlers?

I've never understood this logic. If you want food for the table, take a doe, not a small buck. Shooting a doe makes sense for many, many reasons. IMO shooting a little buck accomplishes three things usually: 1) it's great for those who haven't shot a buck or many deer before, 2) doesn't allow a small buck to grow into a big buck, and 3) most importantly, lets people pad their ego and say "I got my buck".

There are so many levels that I disagree with you that I dont know where to start. Dosen't a small Buck taste the same as a Doe. Food is Food, you guys out there that have turned a season of puting food on the table into a comercial sport should be ashamed of yourselves. How many shows on T.V. are there now that want you to BUY the latest and greatest $k!T that they say will get you your Buck? These guys dont hunt. Many of them are invited to a guided ranch that wants the publisity of having a T.V. show use there sevice.I never ever hear the opening line of a hunting show say"Here we are on some great public hunting land in North central MN". Of course not!!! Where's the money in that?

I hunt for MEAT. you guys out there that put all the importance on horns are the problem with deer hunting.Not the guys shooting small bucks for food. I've seen Does in my life that would put even the smartest bucks to shame. I bet if you scouted and hunted a 3-4 year old Doe the way you guys hunt the same age bucks you would come up empty handed more often hunting the doe than you would with the buck. That just shows how much importants some of you have put into horns and Money hunting. MONEY will get me the big one, when meat on the table should be the goal.I would love to get a nice buck someday but its not in any way the reason I hunt. In My Opinion if your hunting horns and passing up deer for bigger horns, GO HOME. Or better yet,GO TO KANSAS and stay there.

[kr8r.tom]

the mentallity of: "if it's brown it's down" or "I'm a meat hunter" has to harvest a buckfawn or a 1.5 year old buck over taking a doe for food,just shows that that deer hunters skills haven't progressed beyond the beginner, just as in farming you start in pickles then progress to bigger and better things like corn. wich by the way happens to be a favorite food of the whitetailed deer for all you beginners out there.

[Pickelfarmer]

the mentallity of: "if it's brown it's down" or "I'm a meat hunter" has to harvest a buckfawn or a 1.5 year old buck over taking a doe for food,just shows that that deer hunters skills haven't progressed beyond the beginner, just as in farming you start in pickles then progress to bigger and better things like corn. wich by the way happens to be a favorite food of the whitetailed deer for all you beginners out there.

B.S. hunting became a trophy SPORT when your kind came along. Trophy's are for bowling and racing not hunting. Find a new hobby.

[kr8r.tom]

Hunt, fair chase, conservation and hunting ethics...Boone and Crockett club established by Teddy Roosevelt back in 1887 when my kind came along. you should join you wouldn't have any deer to eat or for sport if it wasn't for them.

[Stratosman]

Okay,

PF, take it easy, funny how a thread like this starts out in a civil manner and turns into a bashing thread. I hate that more than anything. We are all hunters in the end right? Stop acting like children and be thankfull that we all have the freedom to choose what deer we shoot. I enjoy passing on small deer too, if you shoot them for food, great! I shoot does for food and like to try to outsmart a nice buck, where ISN'T the sport in that mentality....I guess I need to find a different hobby too...

[Powerstroke]

In reply to BigDave "Another way to keep little Johnny interested is to allow him to actually shoot something without having to make sure it has enough antler points on it. In the places that I hunt we are lucky to just see any deer let alone monster bucks."

Youth under 16 are allowed to shoot any deer in MN. There are no restrictions on doe permits with youth hunters. That is to ensure they can shoot any deer they see in order to get them more interested by harvesting their own animal.

These "unrestricted" youth tags are not eligible for party hunting according to MN regs, but we all know people do it all the time. This is because they think that party hunting should extend to all tags in their group, including the youth tags. If party hunting wasn't in this state, than that "tradition" would tempt people to break the law.