dnr deer management (or lack there of)

[96trigger]

We would need stricter restrictions. 4 to a side, must have at least one vertical tine greater than 6 inches. I don't know. As for moving the season back, its tough, right now, the rutt is starting up north, down here, we are a little bit behind. I'm sure Iowa is even farther behind us. It would be tough to move the firearm season, unless you had two separate seasons, and then where would you draw the line? I don't know where we are headed and I don't know if I like it, but I do trust the DNR and that they will do what is best for the deer population in Minnesota.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

We would need stricter restrictions. 4 to a side, must have at least one vertical tine greater than 6 inches.

So are we going to have to jump out of the tree onto the bucks back with a tape measure to make sure it has 4 points and a 6 inch tine???? Come on! what's the point of even hunting anymore?

This "trophy" mentality is/will be the downfall of our deer hunting heritage. If not through the anti's proving to the rest of the non-hunting public all we hunters care about is thumping our chests of a big rack instead of the real tradition of the hunt, then it will be from the buy-up of public land to convert everything in to a managed ranch(like Texas) that you need to take a second mortgage out on just to hunt for a year..... Is this what you QDM monster buck guys want?????

It makes me sick to see all people care about is what the buck scores..... Is that really what it's all about????? I gladly have no clue how to score a rack, and I hope I never do! To me, it's a 10 pointer w/ a 20 inch spread is enough for me to know you got one heck of a buck!

I guess I just don't get it....

To me hunting is about the hunt! It would lose a lot of it's thrill if I had to measure tine lenght, or have to wait to shoot a monster because I don't have a doe yet.

I think MN is doing just fine. There are plenty of real monster bucks to be had all over the state, get out and find them! Don't push your agenda on the rest of us and take away from our heritage, just so you can shoot a monster year after year. Ever heard of a "once in a life time buck"! I personally like that concept...it keeps things interesting!

[B. Amish]

antler restrictions are bad news. you systematically eliminate the bucks with the most potential.

for example, you have two 1 1/2 year old deer. one is a 6 pointer that would be illegal to shoot because it's less than 8 points. the other is a ten and is legal to shoot. which one has the greater potential?

leave everything alone, but eliminate party hunting and cross tagging. you shoot it, you tag it, you eat it.

[Bear55]

This may not be a popular opinion and may not work in some areas in the state but I would at least consider limiting the buck tags. I believe South Dakota does this and has a healthy buck population. As soon as something is limited it becomes more valuable and people may think twice about shooting that young spike or fork buck. Or if they do shoot the young buck they would be limited to how many a party could shoot. By reducing the buck tags by say 33% there could be that many more bucks around the next year. Getting a buck tag 2 out of 3 years won't be such a bag deal when there are more mature bucks walking around. Just kind of thinking out loud so there may be some holes in this idea.

Also to those complaining about elitist/trophy attitude, I don't think most people want to legislate a big buck behind every tree, but just increase the chance to see a mature buck. There is no doubt that age structure of the bucks in this state are out of whack and completely unnatural.

[Bear55]

Another interesting idea might be to impose antler restrictions every other year. Let all the young bucks live one year, let the meat hunters at them the next year. I think you would see a few bucks make it through cracks and live a little longer.

I will throw one more idea off the wall. Impose antler restrictions but allow hunters to apply for a young buck lotto similar to the doe lotto in some areas. This at least limits the young bucks harvested state wide.

I would be interested to know if the DNR has any number on the percentage of yearling bucks harvested every year.

[96trigger]

Quote:

So are we going to have to jump out of the tree onto the bucks back with a tape measure to make sure it has 4 points and a 6 inch tine????

Nope, just do what hunters are supposed to do, and be aware of what your target is. If you can't do that, don't shoot. It should be deer 101.

Again, I like the system we have, but its a vocal minority that are going to change things. For the record, I don't agree with restrictions, I don't agree with earn a buck. I think we have big deer here in Minnesota, but they are big for a reason. They are tough to hunt, and ever tougher to get a shot at.

Geesh, where are some of you guys on the other threads when I get trashed for saying I like the way things are now and that the DNR is doing a good job and that we don't need earn a buck or restrictioins?

BTW, I do like the brainstorming on things that we can do try and get a healthier buck population in some areas.

[Bear55]

I must also say that I am not really in favor of any kind of antler restrictions but I do favor some kind of QDM to let some of the bucks live to an older age class.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Quote:

So are we going to have to jump out of the tree onto the bucks back with a tape measure to make sure it has 4 points and a 6 inch tine????

Nope, just do what hunters are supposed to do, and be aware of what your target is. If you can't do that, don't shoot. It should be deer 101.

I am well aware of my target before the trigger gets pulled, it is basic hunting 101. But even from 10 yards out it's a little tough to tell if the tine is 6 inches...could be 4.9 or 5.7 even 5.10&1/8th.....Get my point????

[96trigger]

I understand you point, my point is that with restrictions like that, people will stay away from the border deer, and go for the ones that have like 10 inch tines. I mean, if thats all SOME (not all) people on here care about, they shouldn't have to ever worry about a deer having its longest tine close to 6 inches, should be twice that long right? Should be able to see that from 100 yards away. That is what we are talking about right, only shooting the Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett bucks?

I hope that if earn a buck and restrictions ever get talked about that some of you will call the DNR and tell them what you think. I am sure that the QDM'rs already have their ear bent. I will practice QDM on my own, I don't need it regulated by the DNR.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I will practice QDM on my own, I don't need it regulated by the DNR.

Thank you! I completely agree!

[Bear55]

I'm not sure about the 6 inch tine length thing. Many of the buck up north no matter how mature won't get tines that long because they don't have the nutrition. I've seen a lot of big bucks that have a wide rack, thick heavy beams but none of the tines are longer than 5 inches.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I'm not sure about the 6 inch tine length thing. Many of the buck up north no matter how mature won't get tines that long because they don't have the nutrition. I've seen a lot of big bucks that have a wide rack, thick heavy beams but none of the tines are longer than 5 inches.

Exatamundo!!!!!!! ( Hammer, meet head of nail!)

[96trigger]

Again, I think Minnesota is too varied to be successful at statewide QDM, its why our best bet is to manage for population, not bucks, and leave it up to the individual to practice their own QDM. Like the DNR does and will hopefully continue to do. Not all those little bucks are going to run and get shot by the neighbors, some yes, but not all.

So it goes back to the DNR and what this thread started about. Maybe they really are trying to just do their job.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

So it goes back to the DNR and what this thread started about. Maybe they really are trying to just do their job.

Ya think?

And a great job at that! You know things are going well when less then 10 years ago I needed to apply to even shoot a doe and now I can legally kill 7 this year.

Not to mention just about every logging road and trail is covered in rubs and scrapes....Too bad there's soooo many places for them to hide it's really tough to get one, but THAT is not the DNR's fault.

[Bear55]

I still think there needs to be some changes made, maybe not the regulations but the mind set of hunters. Like I said on a previous thread my biggest problems is guys I hunt with pass up does to shoot little bucks when they have a doe tag in their pocket.

I also think party hunting is a rediculous tradition that leads to more young bucks being taken out early. Most states don't allow this, why do we?

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: 96trigger

So it goes back to the DNR and what this thread started about. Maybe they really are trying to just do their job.

Ya think?

And a great job at that! You know things are going well when less then 10 years ago I needed to apply to even shoot a doe and now I can legally kill 7 this year.

Not to mention just about every logging road and trail is covered in rubs and scrapes....Too bad there's soooo many places for them to hide it's really tough to get one, but THAT is not the DNR's fault.

I would say the mild winters has a lot more to do with the deer population of late than anything DNR has done. Look at all the areas of the state that went from intensive harvest to lotto areas, I don't think it was in their plans.

[96trigger]

Party hunting has its place, just not for bucks, we used to party hunt so we could shoot does. Not people party hunt to be able to shoot bucks. There needs to be a change there. And I don't disagree, there is not need to party hunt anymore, unless you are in a lottery zone.

I also think that traditional way of thinking about shooting a small buck over a doe is dying. It might be a slow death, but it is dying nonetheless. 10 years ago, not many people had even heard of QDM, now its very common and most know exactly what those three letters stand for.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

10 years ago, not many people had even heard of QDM, now its very common and most know exactly what those three letters stand for.

But do they really? The concept of a quality herd is great, but I think a lot of people hear the accronym QDM and think of huge bucks around every tree. That's the vibe I get from a lot of posters on here anyway.

I think the majority of people think that QDM is all about big racks. All the killing ( no where near hunting) shows on TV promote QDM as they stand over their monster they whacked from their palace in the middle of a game farm surrounded by food plots. This is what the folks are buying into, IMO. ( Let's plant a bunch of invasive plants in a food plot to bait the deer in and only shoot the monsters so we can brag about how big the rack is and how much better we are then the "meat hunters" because we practice QDM) This is the vibe I get and why I am so turned off by the push for this style of management. Let people shoot what they want and just enjoy the flippin experience that is hunting in the best state ever, Minnesota!

[Bear55]

I agree things are moving in the right direction. I think a lot depends on the younger generation and their willingness to pass up the little bucks. The old school meat hunters have had 30+ years of shooting anything with horns burned into their heads so it may take longer than you think for things to turn the corner. This may also depend if you are hunting private or public land, as we all know they can be worlds apart.

[Bear55]

QDM is more about hard work, good habitat, patience and sacrifice to try and promote a more balance healthy deer population. Maybe those that don't believe in it really don't want to put in the time or the work. I would say a big buck is a bonus.

[Piker]

Enforcing QDM, antler restrictions or anything else is a mistake. Our deer hunting laws are too complicated already. Thankfully, the licensing laws did get a little easier this year. I'll give a couple of reasons why "enforcing" QDM is a mistake. I think practicing it privately is fine, but I don't like enforcing it.

1) Just like monetary inflation, if there were more large antlered deer to harvest the value of a trophy would not be the same anyway. A buck is a trophy because it's size or characteristics are somewhat rare.

2) I like deer hunting the way it is. If there were more "trophy" deer, you can bet that accessibility to land will suffer.

3) I respect the opinions of others in this debate, but I do think that it does make deer hunting look more barbaric. I'm sorry, but this isn't like a slot limit where we're trying to protect spawners.

So under the topic of DNR management, kudos for the simplified licensing and count me amoung those that are against enforcing QDM or antler restrictions.

[Tyler D]

A couple things...

1. QDM is not neccesarily about B&C score it is about shooting a mature buck not a 1 1/2 year old 6 pointer. Can you tell me your hunt isnt more exciting when you thin you have a legitamite shot at a big buck?

2. There will never be a giant buck behind every tree, that would be a lot of deer and I'm not sure that it is biologically feasible.

3. The guy who talked about his buddies passing up does to kill small bucks hit the nail on the head. It is precisley the problem we have in this state. Several years ago we banned my uncle and some of his freinds from our land after I passed on a 6 pointer several times told them not to shoot it and one guy did it anyways even after he passed several does.

4. Trophy hunting is not killing the sport. Trophy hunters are all about harvesting does and mature bucks (not B&C) and maintaining a well balanced herd. Trophy hunters are the probably your most dedicated hunters out there and have a genuine love for the sport. I plan to spend 12 hours a day for the entire 9 day season in my stand, and I will be perfectly ok walking away with an unpunched tag. How many people are willing to do that?

5. It is about using common sense, if you are after meat why not shoot a doe? You can't very well eat the small rack, there isnt a whole lot of nutritional value there. Also a doe probably tastes pretty similar to a yearling buck.

[schmoe147]

Great Post BigGills I totally agree

Alright

Rule #1 - Do NOT shot immature bucks, PERIOD!

Rule #2 - Earn a buck - Get on Board!

Rule #3 - Move the Gun Hunting Season off of the Rut (Learn from our neibors to the South. There's a reason why Iowa has become one of the most sought after places to hunt Whitetails and tags are so hard to get).

Rule #4 - Teach young hunters the significants of these rules.

[Neighbor_guy]

The qdm argument will never work with good success in MN because we are small track hunters. Most of us are hunting 40, 80, mabe 160 acres. A lot of us can not even get neighbors to return calls let alone work with you on trying to produce a good heard. If we lived in texas or WY and hunted 16,000+ acres mabe you could be more selective.

We are meat hunters in MN. Have been since the start of legal hunting seasons. (some even when there was no "legal" seasons)

We are loosing hunters in both age and numbers so fast we can not even get out of our own way. Increasing regulations, and making the proceess more confusing than it already is, is not the way to go. Heck, they dont even check your deer at the check in stations even more.

My Grandfather once told me "boy, dont p into the wind." Boy is it windy in here.

[AF-1984]

My Grandfather once told me "boy, dont p into the wind." Boy is it windy in here.

LOL - Agreed!

[Bear55]

I agree that antler restrictions and forced QDM may not be the way to go but there has to be some middle ground somewhere so we can protect at least some of the young bucks.

[CodyDawg]

Bear55, you make some good points. This is such and interesting topic. I read a bunch of the posts and this is one of the better conversations I have seen. My thoughts are thus: we need to do something to help little bucks survive and bring about a more balanced, natural herd. My party has some of those old timers who just have to shoot a buck. any buck. then they throw the racks away if they are not big.

the easiest thing to do is quit the party hunting rule. A nice step in the right direction and it really doesnt affect anyone too much. I for one, can't see much of the down side to this. No other states to my knowledge do this and no one needs to shoot another persons deer.

next easiest thing is to move the dates. maybe not completely out of the rut, but how about a week or two later. catch the tail end, but keep the tradition alive of basically the same time. say the second to third week in Nov.

Now I am all for going further, but lets start here and see how things play out. Those 2 ideas wont hurt anyone very much and may make a nice difference. Then we re-evaluate and go from there.

I do like the idea of limiting the buck tags somehow. Maybe half the tags have antler point restrictions and half dont. maybe antler point restrictions can continue to be over the counter, but an Any-Buck tag is lotto.

And deer hunting regulations are NOT complicated. If people think they are, then I don't know that I want them operating a firearm. I bet most of the ones who say they are complicated never even read the book.

[sparcebag]

cody that does sound feasible! I always thought of a season starting a week later(selfishness for archery)and less rut hunting.The party hunting sounds good also but how would it be enforced with it being ingrained in the tradition.Its hard to change especially in the woods, no COs or very few if any in the woods,I've never seen one in woods, on roads yes,and checked only out of the woods.We would need so many more COs that cant happen with the current DNRs money intake!

[96trigger]

Eliminating party hunting would be easy in areas that have a healthy population. Most of them have enough tags the way it is. In some areas, where it's lottery, it will be tough.

I think that to move the season back, it would be OK, but also, in South Eastern Minnesota, number of hunters would have to be looked at. It would be tough to combine both the seasons, and moving the second season back might turn some people off, the second season is so popular because its the week of Thanksgiving.

For zone 3, I would propose moving the buck season (3A) back one week and only opening it for 5 days and have a one deer limit. Then for zone 3B, you would start at the normal time and have the full 9 days again. That would give the deer 7 extra days to breed and get the rut out of the their system. I think some of the first season hunters will not like it, but after a couple of years, they would still have first crack with a firearm at all the bigger bucks that will be running around.

I think that we also have to face some facts that not all the places in Minnesota are going to have the population, genetics, food supply, and environment to raise many big bucks.

[sparcebag]

96 am I wrong but I thought this year there were no split seasons??