dnr deer management (or lack there of)

[Bear55]

Yes party hunting would be hard to enforce but it would still be the law and I think most people would follow it. There will be poeple that break this law but they are probably the same people now who are breaking the laws now. After a few years people will get use to it.

[96trigger]

There is still split seasons in the Southeast. We still have a 3A which is a 7 day season from the 8th through the 14th. 3B starts on 15th and goes to the 23rd.

[archerystud]

Quote:

I think that we also have to face some facts that not all the places in Minnesota are going to have the population, genetics, food supply, and environment to raise many big bucks.

Not to pick on you 96 but I disagree with that statement. Maybe not all but most of MN could produce bigger bucks. I also disagree about "genetics" being necessary for a big buck. It depends on who's defenition of big you are talking. To at least 90 percent of the hunters in this state a 140 class deer is a very large buck. I'm not a biologist I would argue that at least 80% of whitetail bucks in MN if given a chance to make 4.5 years of age could make it to a 140 class deer. I would just like to see more deer of this caliber in the state. A B & C deer on the other hand requires great genetics and not every deer can get that big.

I think CodyDog hit the nail on the head. Since 1992 I've taken 1 nice and 3 big bucks in MN. In that same amount of time I've taken 12 does. QDM is about properly managing the herd. None of those bucks broke 140 inches but the 3 dressed out at over 200 lbs. the other at 187.

IMO, most areas of the state have a buck population which is too small and immature and many areas have too many does.

[slimngrizzly]

I agree archstud. QDM can be 100% effective at mantaining a balanced buck/doe ratio, producing mature bucks, and providing everyone plenty of opportunity. Even the ones that argue know this! The problem is they wanna have thier cake and eat it too. Everyone would like a big buck, but they want to shoot the little one too. And for QDM to work, that CAN NOT happen.

Nearly every buck in MN given age will be a large bodied, large antlered animal. Some may not have lots of points or score real well. But they will still be big, and if nothng else given the chance to show their potential before being shot.

[96trigger]

Stud, I don't feel picked on. This has been a great discussion. I would not sneeze at a 140 class buck. I think what we are really talking about is letting the baskets and forks grow. If everybody's definition of a trophy is different, then I would say that after that, we cannot tell people to not shoot that 2 1/2 year old. (Actually, who are we to tell them they can't take that fork or basket).

Quote:

None of those bucks broke 140 inches but the 3 dressed out at over 200 lbs. the other at 187.

Aren't you kind of proving my point with this, shouldn't those bucks have had better racks with a body size that big? Or where they too young? Two years ago I did shoot a gnarly 5 pointer that weighed 192 pounds, But he was only 2.5 years old, but he looked huge coming through the woods.

I don't have the answers. I know what we have in my neck of the woods, I see a surprising amount of large deer on public land during the bow season. If I listen to what some people are saying on this sight, in some areas it sounds like there are no deer, in other areas it sounds like there are lots of deer but only small bucks, etc... How do you manage a state when the populations vary so much? In the areas where there are lot of deer, where are the big ones. you can't tell me that the buck to do ratio is so out of whack that there are only small bucks. That I am not buying. That might happen on someones 40 or their 80 acre sections, but not the entire area.

P.S. Slimn, I was wondering when you were going to chime in

[Bear55]

Well said archerystud and slimgrizly. Even if you do run into a buck with poor genetics I would much rather shoot a 5.5 year old six pointer with a heavy rack than a young 2.5 year old 10 pointer. It you let any buck get to be 4.5+ he is going to be a trophy for most hunters.

[slimngrizzly]

P.S. Slimn, I was wondering when you were going to chime in

I didnt notice this post till now.... probably a good thing. I can get fired up pretty fast when it comes to QDM, HAHA Next time look out!!!

[archerystud]

Quote:

Aren't you kind of proving my point with this, shouldn't those bucks have had better racks with a body size that big? Or where they too young?

None of them were 4.5 year olds. The smallest was a 2.5 year old but he did have some great genetics. The largest rack would have been a 140 class at 3.5 years old but he had a broken point. Sorry I should have clarified that.

This is a tough discussion. I'd just like to see the state improve the herd age of the bucks here a little bit. I do think the reg changes to a single season may help So. MN zone 4 as I'm betting there will be less hunters. I know of a few groups who lost their hunting land since it's now one season instead of two.

We have two properties that I mainly hunt on and they have the ability to produce big bucks. I'm just amazed at how many small ones I pass on that get drilled. I just don't have enough land to protect a "few" bucks.

[96trigger]

Someone posted on here that QDM won't work in Minnesota because of the small tracts of land owned by people. Its the same story over and over, I pass on little bucks and they get drilled by the neighbors. I just have to think that some of those bucks that I pass on make it through. If they didn't, we wouldn't see any bucks older than 1.5 years. The state could try and mandate something but I don't have any idea how it would work without making the weekend warriors mad, unfortunately, I think Minnesota is loaded with those hunters, they have 48 hours to fill their deer tag, and they are going to fill it with whatever walks by. Unless there gets to be some restrictions, this will happen year in and year out. What I think all of us don't understand is why some people will shoot the little buck that comes in with four does and let the does live. I do think that this mentallity is slowly dying. In my party alone I have driven that notion out of at least 3 die hard people. I have an uncle that I neve thought would ever let a deer walk by but he did last year, and he's 60 years old.

[2Crank]

Trigger reminds me of my Brother's Story. For the past 3 years I have been trying to coach the members of my party on the goals of QDM. We hunt in a intensive harvest area. Small tracks of land. My brother and dad have taken 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks 4 out of the past 5 years. They say, "If they don't shoot them, the neighbors WILL"! I reply, "They might" but then again they , "May Not"! As soon as YOU pull the trigger, it's a sure thing.

I have taken 2 bucks in the past 5 years OVER 140. I have seen and passed on many smaller bucks, some of wich my dad and brother killed. Although frusterating I will continue to do so.

Last year my Brother shot a buck in the 140's. It was a buck that he missed the year before on opening day. Guess what? He now is now on board with QDM!!! I will believe it when I see it, but Time will tell.

[archerystud]

Now that some people may have a longer season, they may be more willing to let some deer walk. Maybe not the first year but in future years they may start.

Funny but that is the same thing neighbors are saying to me, "If I don't then the neighbors will". My response is always I'm a neighbor and I won't.

I don't think the neighbors believed me until about 3-4 years ago when they shot a small 8-point buck. When I came out of the woods they asked me how I did. I just told them they shot a one-eyed 8-pointer, they asked how I knew. I told them he was with 30 yards of me for over 20 minutes, if I wanted him you wouldn't have gotten him.

[96trigger]

Stud, thats a great story. I'm sure there are a lot more like that. Whether its an excuse to shoot anything, or they really believe that their neighbor will shot it, it certainly doesn't help their cause to shoot the little bucks.

Heck, we probably have two neighbors on here saying the same thing about each other.

[Bear55]

Trigger reminds me of my Brother's Story. For the past 3 years I have been trying to coach the members of my party on the goals of QDM. We hunt in a intensive harvest area. Small tracks of land. My brother and dad have taken 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks 4 out of the past 5 years. They say, "If they don't shoot them, the neighbors WILL"! I reply, "They might" but then again they , "May Not"! As soon as YOU pull the trigger, it's a sure thing.

I have taken 2 bucks in the past 5 years OVER 140. I have seen and passed on many smaller bucks, some of wich my dad and brother killed. Although frusterating I will continue to do so.

Last year my Brother shot a buck in the 140's. It was a buck that he missed the year before on opening day. Guess what? He now is now on board with QDM!!! I will believe it when I see it, but Time will tell.

Crank that sounds like my story, I pass them up and members of my party shoot them or the neighbors get them. They were on board with QDM for about half of one season about 5 years ago. Not sure now many little guys I have let go in the past 5 years but I will keep fighting the good fight and hope some of them slip through the cracks. I do have a few guys that are with me and will at least lets the spikes and forks go but its an uphill battle for sure. We have taken a couple of nice bucks in the past 5 years so hopefully they will open their eyes a little.

[CodyDawg]

I have a similar story. My cousin was not letting any bucks walk, even though I was trying to get him to. Then he shot a 150 class 11 pointer. Hmmm, he is pretty much on board. then the lucky SOB shoots a 180 class buck and he is completely on board. His comment to me was: before I thought it was cool to shoot a buck. Now, after shooting a couple of big ones, I would rather shoot a big one every now and then than shoot a little one every year. There really is a huge difference in the excitement level that you cannot understand until you shoot a big one.

That said, I am still working on his dad and a few others. they say, I can only wait so many years until I get ichy. Hard to answer that one.

[archerystud]

It's nice if people just learn to start passing "some" up. If they don't shoot a deer in 5 years and feel like taking ONE, I don't have a problem with it. Personally I'd rather just drill a doe and I have covered my fix for shooting a deer.

The problem I have is people shooting little bucks year after year after year. I mean what's the point? Those of us who know deer hunting know that in late Oct through November those young bucks might just be the dumbest critter in the woods.

There just isn't a challenge. Now let that same buck get to 3.5 or 4.5 years old and it's a different story.

Whether the state does something to push more QDM in MN or not I do believe the overall trend is towards QDM (i.e. producing older bucks). I started in 1992 and back then most people couldn't believe I would pass up something with antlers. Now it seems like almost half the people I talk to will pass on smaller bucks.

If I can convert my dad, anyone can be converted.

[96trigger]

Yep, I think its catching on, but its slow. Its much easier to convince people down here because we have a healthy deer population. You can shoot a doe pretty easily so its not like people don't get a crack at deer. I've got some people that want to shoot big bucks, I often explain to them that they have to let the does walk by first also, man, they really hate to hear that. Its much easier to do if they already have a doe hanging or in the freezer.

I only ever see one reason for shooting a small buck, and that is if you just haven't seen anything else. I know that it will go against what a lot of people believe is QDM, but if its the last day I can hunt and I don't have a deer in the freezer, the little guy will probably go down. That has never happened in all the years I have been hunting as I have always had ample opportunity to shoot a doe. However, I go through at least one deer a year, I like to supplement my pork with venison, so if the choice came between filling the freezer, and tag soup, I'm going to fill the freezer.

Here's to hoping that with the populations as strong as it is, that never happens.

I know that some might talk about letting kids get a deer, any deer, but there is no better time to teach a kid about QDM and passing up bucks, than when he/she has a gun in her hand. Start the thinking early, and it will only get better.

[slimngrizzly]

Its frusterating. This will be the 8th year ive eaten my MN tag (I figure im bound to get just plain lucky sometime here). I have had some opportunities at some big deer but screwed up. I hunt 35-50 days a year in MN for deer, on average Im lucky to see ONE thats 3 1/2 or better. Thats just seeing one, not getting a shot. Now I like a challenge as much as the next guy, but thats a lot of time, money, sweat and tears for what? And then Gun Season comes and a bunch of weekend warriors come out and bang away at everything ive worked to grow and protect. It is most certainly an uphill battle!

[96trigger]

Thats all I can say is that I might get lucky and some guys will miss those deer. In the bluffs, there are lots of places to hide, thats how we get some of the big deer, they usually only get shot at once, then it is off to the thickest, gnarliest [PoorWordUsage] they can find, and they don't move until dark. I have to wince a little when I see the deer that I have passed up on in the back of someones truck, but, its part of the territory.

[Bear55]

Yep, I think its catching on, but its slow. Its much easier to convince people down here because we have a healthy deer population. You can shoot a doe pretty easily so its not like people don't get a crack at deer. I've got some people that want to shoot big bucks, I often explain to them that they have to let the does walk by first also, man, they really hate to hear that. Its much easier to do if they already have a doe hanging or in the freezer.

I only ever see one reason for shooting a small buck, and that is if you just haven't seen anything else. I know that it will go against what a lot of people believe is QDM, but if its the last day I can hunt and I don't have a deer in the freezer, the little guy will probably go down. That has never happened in all the years I have been hunting as I have always had ample opportunity to shoot a doe. However, I go through at least one deer a year, I like to supplement my pork with venison, so if the choice came between filling the freezer, and tag soup, I'm going to fill the freezer.

Here's to hoping that with the populations as strong as it is, that never happens.

I know that some might talk about letting kids get a deer, any deer, but there is no better time to teach a kid about QDM and passing up bucks, than when he/she has a gun in her hand. Start the thinking early, and it will only get better.

This is a great point, I think the DNR needs to try and raise the population in many parts of the state. When people are seeing and shooting deer they are happy. I think more guys will be willing to shoot does and pass buck when there are more of them around.

There was some talk earlier about several Intensive harvest areas dropping down the lotto areas, I think the intensive harvest 5 doe limit really screwed some area's up. I heard many stories of guys going out and shoot 5 because they could, then giving the deer away. Its great to donate but I really think they put a huge dent in the population. Now a lot of people are hunting a lotto area you know the little bucks are going to take a beating.

[Bear55]

I have a similar story. My cousin was not letting any bucks walk, even though I was trying to get him to. Then he shot a 150 class 11 pointer. Hmmm, he is pretty much on board. then the lucky SOB shoots a 180 class buck and he is completely on board. His comment to me was: before I thought it was cool to shoot a buck. Now, after shooting a couple of big ones, I would rather shoot a big one every now and then than shoot a little one every year. There really is a huge difference in the excitement level that you cannot understand until you shoot a big one.

That said, I am still working on his dad and a few others. they say, I can only wait so many years until I get ichy. Hard to answer that one.

This is a good point, I have a similar story. My brother-in-law had shot a couple of does a while back then went several years wihtout a deer. Then he got lucky and bagged two really nice 8 pointers in back to back years. Bang he is on board with QDM and has never shot a little buck in his life. That might be what it takes to get a few guys to convert.

As far as getting the itch to shoot I just don't see it happening to most guys, once you convert you really dedicate yourself to hunting mature bucks and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[hhguide]

I think alot of TV Shows and Movies coming out are also stressing about letting those little ones pass. Food plots and reasearch this all adds up to big deer and I think the more people watch those the better off we will be!

[96trigger]

Those shows can show a lot of what QDM can do, however, they must be taken with a grain of salt. How many of them are in enclosed areas. Almost all are on private land. And I think that watching those shows can people hot under the collar because we all want what they, on TV have, and sometimes, its just not feasable, or they are not willing to put in the work to go out and get one of those monsters on their own. They take a lot of work, a lot more than what goes in to those shows that show a guy climbing in stand for a couple of days and shooting a trophy, it is way harder than that, but many people want it to be that easy and think that mandated QDM can do it for them.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I'm going to add this to the conversation....

I am on a different page then the majority on the QDM stuff. It is a wonderful concept, and it would be nice if it could be a reality....HOWEVER....

I hunt up in the big woods in NE MN. There are miles of woods with little to no pressure. Sure, now days there are a lot of deer, but they also have a lot of land to hide in and no one to get them up and moving.

There is no guarantee a guy will even see a deer during the whole 16 day season, aside from maybe a few flags from deer you bump moving through the thick stuff.

It would be great if I could shoot a doe and wait out for a big guy, and I would if that were to happen. But I really like having meat in my freezer and I spend a lot of time and money hunting ( I bow hunt and rifle...I get out a lot, but not as much as I'd like). If by chance a little buck walks past me..It's toast! I've hunted too many years up there and came home empty, I don't have the luxury to pick and choose what deer I shoot, unlike what most of you claim to have.

I feel this is the case with the majority of hunters out there. And is it their fault if they are "weekend warriors"? Most people don't have cush jobs that allow for multiple vacay's to be taken strictly for deer hunting. A lot of people have families to think about and other commitments. A lot of people have to travel a great distance to hunt and if they only have a few days, then they should be able to take what they want.

In a perfect world it would be great if we could get up on opener and have a doe standing under a tree waiting for us so we could get that for meat and hunt for the big guys, but it isn't a perfect world!

I remember not too long ago there was no such thing as a bonus tag in MN, the whole state was a lottery for a doe tag. And if we get a couple "real" MN winters, we'll be right back to that.

I say we all enjoy these bumper years of deer and just enjoy what the hunt TRUELY is about, and not worry about how big the buck scores and look down on people that do shoot a small buck ( that is probably the biggest turn off, IMO.... The smug attitudes people who worship QDM have towards those that just shoot a deer for the sake of the hunt).

I whole-heartedly agree though that if there is a buck and a doe under your tree and they are about the same size, let the buck go and whack the doe. But I sure am not going to look down on someone if they choose to shoot the buck. It's their choice and if that's what satisfies them and makes their hunt complete, then Right On!

No need to fight and divide ourselves over something like this...If it's w/in the law then let it be.

Educate and practice it all you like, but stay off the soap boxes and don't look down at those that choose to not do it your way.

[Mark Christianson]

Well said Brule.

[candiru]

I agree Brule, its not a good thing to impose these regs on everyone. We really can't afford to lose the "weekend warriers". Where I am at it is about one year in three for an antlerless permit. (I think some areas are worse) It would be a rough go of it with no antlerless permit and have to wait for a big one. The extra deer deal went too far with cutting the population.

[archerystud]

Brule:

Not trying to rip on you just bringing up the point that your situation is so completely different from mine that it's unreal. Up in the North woods I think your deer have enough cover to get big.

My family has land in So MN that I've hunted for over 20 years. It is not uncommon for my dad and I to see 6 different bucks on opening day but 98% of what we see are 1.5 year old bucks. By the end of the weekend most of them will be dead and it wasn't by us. The deer I'm hunting down there have almost no place to get away from hunters.

I plant food plots, improve habitat and do many things to attract the deer and make my property better. Yet the weekend warrior comes out and shoots a deer that I passed up 8 times during the hunting season. I think you can imagine how frustrating that can be.

I have shot 4 big bucks (well big to me anyway) and only one of them has come from the property we own and yet over the last 20 years that is where 95% of my hunting has been done at. I've gotten my other big bucks on special hunts or on private property next to a park (i.e. deer sancturies where they are allowed to grow up).

My point is unless they get a chance to grow (sancutry or allowing a hunter to pass on them) they never will get big.

[Mark Christianson]

Quote:

My point is unless they get a chance to grow (sancutry or allowing a hunter to pass on them) they never will get big.

I think Brules point and many others is this.

Not everyone wants or needs "big" to be satisfied.

People that want "big", are the ones chastising the ones that shoot smaller ones.

Its legal.

I agree, it does suck to pass on deer and know they get taken. But I cant go chew out the neighbors for it either. Its their right. And I can only hope to change that mindset. Thats all I can do.

[archerystud]

BLB,

I've never chewed anyone out over it. I've just let them know that I could have shot that deer before them and leave it at that.

You are correct that they have every right to shoot that deer. I also have a right to my opinion.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Quote:

My point is unless they get a chance to grow (sancutry or allowing a hunter to pass on them) they never will get big.

Not everyone wants or needs "big" to be satisfied.

People that want "big", are the ones chastising the ones that shoot smaller ones.

That is exactly my point! Deer hunting is becoming to "trophy" centered for my comfort. I seriously believe this will only bring us down in the long run. The folks who don't hunt but are on the fence are on that fence because they understand the populations need to be controled and they somewhat understand the bond and tradition that goes with it. If hunting all of a sudden becomes nothing more then a bunch of people thumping their chests and relating the deer to nothing but a score there is nothing left to the hunt except the "sportyness" of it. This will, IMO, cause a lot of those people on the fence to fall off of it on the side of the anti's.

I guess for me hunting is too spiritual to look at a buck and see a score attached to it. I see a large supply of organic food that I personally harvested, and a connect with the land that I took that animal from. Sure, I would love to have a nice buck to display the antlers on my wall and thump my chest a little, but it's not because of it scored high or got me in a book, it'll be because at that one moment I was where I needed to be and the stars alligned for me that day.

So, I guess my point to all of this is as it pertains to QDM; is that for those that are all about it, that's great. However, understand that deer hunting means different things to different people. If you choose to let a lot of deer walk because they aren't endowed to your liking that is your choice. But do not look down on the guy that in his eyes for that one moment was in the right spot and had the stars allign for him at that momment.

One mans trash is another mans treasure!

[Neighbor_guy]

...

So, I guess my point to all of this is as it pertains to QDM; is that for those that are all about it, that's great. However, understand that deer hunting means different things to different people. If you choose to let a lot of deer walk because they aren't endowed to your liking that is your choice. But do not look down on the guy that in his eyes for that one moment was in the right spot and had the stars allign for him at that momment.

One mans trash is another mans treasure!

Well stated, couldtn't agree more.