Nutrient Overloading on Fertile Lakes. See the results...

[MinnesotaMongo]

Phosphorus doesn't just go away...

[Team Otter]

Our southern Minnesota farming practices are so out of touch with reality that the destruction to our watersheds and wetlands is almost irreversible.

Please explain. Thanks.

[Team Otter]

Non-phosphosated products are available all over the food and beverage industry for equipment cleaning, etc. Perhaps the agriculture industry needs to look into alternative options...

Thanks for chiming in Scott. I agree with you.

[MinnesotaMongo]

This paper and many other case studies highlight watershed issues and nutrient loading. If you stopped phosphorus loading in the watershed of every eutrophic lake in the southern third of Minnesota, you would still have huge issues with internal phosphorus loading. Many of these systems are hugely self-overloaded. Plants and animals have sequestered phosphorus, and the sediments are chocked full of phosphorus.

You'll have to forgive the overall feelings of hopelessness because for many of these lakes the only way to make changes would be to build a time machine. There are some eutrophic lakes that aren't in too bad of shape. Lakes with little shoreline development, small and relatively intact or undisturbed watersheds, and a history of few landscape changes in the watershed can be protected if protection becomes a priority. Roemhildts, Fish, and Lily are a handful of SouthCentral Lakes that come to mind.

I agree that late Eutrophic lakes have internal phosphate issues. But to just lay back and give up is extremely short sighted, if you ask me. If you're right, then why are lake reclamation projects such as Heron Lake (which used to be a great waterfowl hunting spot) working?

[MinnesotaMongo]

OK T.O., you have been coyly dissecting statements in this thread from the beginning. It's apparent you do not agree with my premise - which is fine. I was just laying out a concern - and maybe I'm full of it (it wouldn't be the first time...)

Where do you stand and why?

[sheephead2]

Instead of going after farmers why not just go to the source which is the chemical company's which make it available for farmers and for homeowners.Yes I would like to see buffer zones to slow run off.

[MinnesotaMongo]

Putting in buffer zones and other ecological fixes would be easier than lawyering up and going after agri-business. Again, I don't think our goal should be slamming the farmer (although that one deserves some boos for his eroso-corn fiasco.) - we need to recognize there is a PROBLEM and band together to help make WORKABLE solutions which can at least SLOW down the aging process of these late eutrophic lakes.

I could care less who gets the blame - I just want to slow it down.

We should all agree on that one, am I right?

[croixflats]

Isnt there a push in other parts of the state and a big push in North Dakota. To install Tile and drainage system to create more farm land.

[Scott M]

I agree that late Eutrophic lakes have internal phosphate issues. But to just lay back and give up is extremely short sighted, if you ask me. If you're right, then why are lake reclamation projects such as Heron Lake (which used to be a great waterfowl hunting spot) working?

Those reclamations aren’t a sign that we are waging war on cultural or nonpoint eutrophication.

From the Minnesota Water Quality Board December 1999 Monthly Newsletter: The DNR Section of Wildlife is planning to use a combination of dewatering and the application of rotenone, a federal and state registered pesticide, to remove undesirable fish from Heron Lake in Jackson County and its primary tributary, Okabena Creek, Jackson and Nobles counties.

A reclamation, such as Christina, Swan, Heron, or Geneva is a wildlife project aimed at improving water quality for wildlife, specifically waterfowl. Those are wildlife designated lakes, whose management resides with DNR Wildlife. Generally those shallow water lakes don’t offer a fishery and suffer from poor water quality; aquatic plants that are damaged or completely eliminated by heavy infestation of carp/bullheads/fathead minnows, siltation, and high fluctuating water levels in spring and summer. Often times there can be temporary victories, such as Heron lake, but in due time things often revert back to poor conditions. Chemical reclamation is often incomplete even with drawdowns and carp and rough fish do come back. But overall the goal of these reclamation projects are to improve water quality and try to shift primary production out of algae and into aquatic vegetation, since this is most beneficial for wildlife, specifically waterfowl. Making this change is a very difficult thing to do, as a very green lake full of strong algae blooms and turbid water and a cleaner lake with abundant submerged plant growth represent opposite ends of alternative stable states.

What I’m trying to say is that reclamation projects aren’t trying to do anything about phosphorus overloads, they are trying to make temporary gains. Sometimes they work (Swan and Heron appear to be successes, Christina failed the first time but most recently seems successful, and Geneva was a failure in its first attempt…all IMO, BTW) and often times they don’t. They don’t make any sort of changes to self-loading. Even after rotenoning the fish the phosphorus in their bodies is still present and thus in the system, but at least the fish themselves aren’t stirring up the sediments and making things worse. It’s a tradeoff between spending the license money and DU money and seeing some temporary relief that can helps ducks and wildlife or leaving things alone and suffering through the poor water quality. There is also the component of Ducks Unlimited, Sportsman’s groups, and the DNR needing to look like they are doing something about it too, to be completely blunt.

Now, I’m not trying to advocate giving up, I’m just stating a fact. There are some components of southern Minnesota eutrophic lakes that cannot and will not be changed (i.e. internal phosophorus load). I think it’s in our best interest to pick our battles in the watersheds. Overall, I agree that something should be done when a video such as the one MNMongo has posted shows such terrible land use practices. It’s still everyone’s water and no one should be able to degrade it in that manner.

[LMITOUT]

Instead of going after farmers why not just go to the source which is the chemical company's which make it available for farmers and for homeowners.

So by that reasoning you believe it's the gun manufacturer's fault when a person uses a gun to shoot someone else?

[charlie1959]

You are right, finger pointing isnt gonna fix anything the damage has taken a long time to get this bad.But also some common sence needs to be used, common corn 10 ft form the lake well thats an automatic slam to the farmer just because of a few isnt that the way it goes.The fert/manure issue isnt going away but top management practices need to be used maybe inforced.I know manure is being handeled in a better manner than it used to be,injected instead of just being put out on top of the ground.Buffer strips,setbacks,more crp it would all help in time,theres the issue people want a quick fix and there isnt one,everyone needs to do whatever they can.Farm the best CRP the rest.

[sheephead2]

I don't know how you got guns involve but this is my opinion. Back in the old days we had lead paint they figured it is bad for us so they got rid of it.I think there could be something engineered that would be safer for the lakes.

Originally Posted By: sheephead2

Instead of going after farmers why not just go to the source which is the chemical company's which make it available for farmers and for homeowners.

So by that reasoning you believe it's the gun manufacturer's fault when a person uses a gun to shoot someone else?

[PDOGG]

I guess what I don't understand is why the Federal Government hasn't put any restriction on these chemicals if the are harmful to the environment? I am in the HVAC industry and in a couple year's the manufacturers are forced to stop producing air conditioning units that use r-22 because of concerns about it's harm to the ozone. We are forced by the govenment to reclaim all refridgeration we remove from system's and in 2 years will no be allowed to install anymore r-22 unit's. In my opinion the alternative refridgerant's are not as good as r-22 but if they are better for the environment than I guess that's good. We are not given any reimbursment for the change in tooling we have had to do for this change even though we are forced into it. My question become's why aren't the farmers, who recieve much more government funding thean our industry, forced into being more enviornmentally friendly? Does this seem fair ? Why don't farmer's have to be accountable for protecting the environment?

[PDOGG]

Farmer's are going to use the cheapest most effictive way to fertilize or for pesticides and herbacides to widen there profit margains. You can't really blame them it is after all a business and if it is not against the law there is no penalty to them. So I can see where some of the blame could be put on the manufacturer's for not coming up with safer and cheaper alternatives. Also there should be some more regulations put on it. You can't really compare that to gun manufacturer's and killing people because there is laws against that!!

[MinnesotaMongo]

I want to just say right now how much I appreciate the banter and information. I am not trying to foist my views on anyone - I'm just responding to something I witnessed at the same time I was playing with some new technology.

It was interesting to see an article in the Mankato Free Press about all the nice lakes around here for swimming, boating, etc - including one of them that is in my video. I'm working on a little response...

[Jesse Drummer]

go get em' mongo!!!

[croixflats]

I guess what I don't understand is why the Federal Government hasn't put any restriction on these chemicals if the are harmful to the environment? I am in the HVAC industry and in a couple year's the manufacturers are forced to stop producing air conditioning units that use r-22 because of concerns about it's harm to the ozone. We are forced by the govenment to reclaim all refridgeration we remove from system's and in 2 years will no be allowed to install anymore r-22 unit's. In my opinion the alternative refridgerant's are not as good as r-22 but if they are better for the environment than I guess that's good. We are not given any reimbursment for the change in tooling we have had to do for this change even though we are forced into it. My question become's why aren't the farmers, who recieve much more government funding thean our industry, forced into being more enviornmentally friendly? Does this seem fair ? Why don't farmer's have to be accountable for protecting the environment?

The farming industry has a huge amount of lobbyist behind it. So to get anything changed as far as what the farmers use to fertilize is an uphill battle.

[PDOGG]

I'm fully aware of that. All I am saying is if somebody is powerful enough to put restrictions on all these other industries to protect the evviornment why not the farmer's?

[jhanks50]

I had a little laugh after reading this and then reading the Free Press today and hearing how great the lakes are to swim in.. I look forward to you response to that mongo!!

[LMITOUT]

I don't know how you got guns involve but this is my opinion. Back in the old days we had lead paint they figured it is bad for us so they got rid of it.I think there could be something engineered that would be safer for the lakes.

I hear ya. My point with the gun analogy was I don't think it's necessary to hold the chemical manufacturer's responsible, since the land owners are the ones pulling the trigger. But as PDOGG said, there aren't really any regulations against them using them so it'll continue to happen. If regulations were put on the type of chemicals that land owners were allowed to utilize, the chemical companies would change accordingly and it would work itself out in the end. Using the shotgun approach (there I go using a gun analogy again!) of just banning everything isn't the right way to go about it, but everyone likes the cheap and dirty way of getting it done so that's probably what will happen if anything happens at all.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the biology and chemistry of water systems, but I do feel that any man-made water diversion devices that drain into the lakes can't be a positive thing. Looking at the northern lakes to the southern lakes in this state there is an obvious difference, but I don't believe it's a coincidence that those southern lakes have the quality they do and also just happen to be in the agricultural zone of the state.

[Jaspernuts]

If you want to see what a southern MN lake can look like, go to Fish lake in Lesueur county. I was out there last weekend and you can see 15 ft down. The fishing wasn't great but it was so nice to see clean water!

[troutman]

Jeez,we've sure got a bunch of smarty pants on here don't we? Superb,excellent thread!Hopefully discussions like this will ultimately result in changes being made somewhere down the line.If not for us...for our kids and grandkids.

Keep it up boys

[Team Otter]

I've simply been asking questions that others would ask whom may not be a member of FM but still reading.

My position is that there several factors contributing to nutrient loading, algae blooms and water quality on the lakes in this area. Fertilizer run-off is the least of our concerns but still should remain on the radar. Perhaps a prioritized list is in order...

[MinnesotaMongo]

My position is that there several factors contributing to nutrient loading, algae blooms and water quality on the lakes in this area. Fertilizer run-off is the least of our concerns but still should remain on the radar. Perhaps a prioritized list is in order...

I don't think there is a person on this forum who disputes that there are several factors. My contention continues to be that there are external man-made forces accelerating these algae blooms which need to be stopped NOW. I grew up in Southern Minnesota - and to see the drastic changes in the lakes in the 40 plus years I've been alive is breathtaking.

[smnduck]

Any one that disturbs more than an acre of ground must comply with clean water standerds by placing silt fence and many other erosion control measures around the site., except the ag industry.

Just look in the ditchs in spring at the dirt blown into them. Its not just dirt in them ditch's either, residues of pesticides,herbicides and fertilizers.

Added drainage(tile) to watersheds without any sediment or holding ponds.

Yes the ag industry is wrecking our natural resources.

[NTW]

It seems we all can agree that agriculture is having harmful affects on our natural resources.

Does anyone know how we can make a difference? Would a petition with our signatures help? Lawmaker we can contact repeditively? Or can we only continue to share our frustrations with eachother?

When it is no longer safe to swim in a lake that has been used for recreation for the longest time, there is no arguing. Anyone who has fished or been on the lakes in this area regularly for the past 20 years or so can not deny the changes to water quality.

I don't feel that anything I can do will make a difference.

[MinnesotaMongo]

I'm friends with a Biology professor at MSU-Mankato, and we are talking about some things. I'm also thinking about calling some other agencies and seeing if we can partner up somehow.

I need to nail down the science on this more, so that it just isn't "make work" to help us feel better.

[NTW]

That's really cool Mongo, please keep us updated on your findings!

All I am able to do is make observations and learn what I can from subject experts.

[Jesse Drummer]

Mongo,

i would like to congratulate you on how many replies you have gotten so far. closing in on 100 !!! and to think this all started because i got a 5lber on a single lake and told you about it ! lol.

[sheephead2]

I do believe there are organization out there already Cannon River Watershed Partnership They have websites but I don't know if I can post them here