Shamineau

[djwood]

it seems to be rather simple ! if muskies were so good for a lake why did mother nature not put more of them into our 10,000 lakes ?

[AWH]

Germanshorthairs,

Yes I do sell musky lures, thank you for noticing. But not sure what that has to do with the health of our fisheries.

 Quote:

My answer is simple, if muskies do eat walleyes(even if very few)they are lowering the number of walleyes in that lake. Correct?? Seems simple to me.

I can definitely understand this line of thinking and if this is what most people believe, it’s easy to understand why muskies get a negative rap from many people. However, before we jump to that straight forward and simple conclusion, we have to look at the big picture and understand how all of the species in our waters interact. It’s not quite as simple as a musky eats a walleye, therefore the walleye population suffers. A walleye will actually eat more walleye than muskies will. So when a walleye eats a walleye, are the walleyes now to blame for lower walleye numbers? Obviously, this doesn’t make a lot of sense, as without walleyes, there would be no walleyes. So it’s a bit more complex than that.

The response to the above is much more complex than I have time to answer. But I will “briefly” try to explain in a way that makes sense. We must first look at northern pike, I believe. Northern pike, although I love to fish for them, can sometimes have some of the greatest negative impact on our fisheries. Pike are eating machines and they are usually present in relatively large numbers. They reproduce very well, which can only expand on this problem when you have larger numbers of small or stunted pike.

Small pike will feed heavily on the same prey that walleye feed heavily on. Small perch are a preferred prey of both. Now if these pike feed so heavily on the perch population that they become more scarce, the walleyes will have less to eat. Populations of fish naturally fluctuate (the cyclical nature of lakes) as the prey/predator balance changes. Let’s say (to make things simple) that perch are the only prey fish in the lake. As perch populations go down, walleye numbers will also go down. When walleye numbers go down, perch numbers are allowed to rebound. What follows? Walleye numbers will also again begin to rise. Again, the cyclical nature of things. Obviously, it’s much more complex than this, but this is part of the piece of the puzzle.

Now pike not only eat large numbers of small baitfish that walleyes also target, but they will also eat a lot of juvenile walleyes. Now we’re getting to the point when it comes to muskies. Muskies prefer forage that is larger than what walleyes, bass and smaller pike generally target. Suckers, ciscoes, to name a few. Sure, they might eat a few walleyes. But this isn’t a common thing. The spiny fins on a walleye (when they get to be the size of forage a larger musky prefers) make them almost a last resort on their “menu”. Muskies are much more likely to eat a small musky or pike than they will a walleye. And being that pike are much more plentiful, they will definitely find a few of them to eat.

Now let’s say a musky over the course of a year eats three 12” walleyes and three 15” pike. (Likely skewed heavier on the pike side, but just using 3 and 3 to make things simple). What happens when this musky eats these pike? For one, these pike will no longer be feeding heavily on the baitfish that the walleyes flourish on. And these pike will also no longer be feeding on juvenile walleyes. Do you think a pike is going to care if it eats a 7” perch or a 7” walleye? Not a chance. So by this musky taking out these 3 pike, look at the numbers of walleyes that it is essentially helping to keep in the system. In this scenario (not an uncommon one) the walleye population is actually higher than it would be if not for that musky. Does this make sense?

Not sure if you noticed in one of my above posts when I mentioned how fisheries personnel in NY basically had this same finding.

 Quote:

Research shows that More Muskies = More Walleyes!

While intuitively it seems like this would not be the case, muskies feed on bait fish that eat walleye fry. Additionally, muskies spawn later in the season and create an additional food source for young walleye. So, the musky population helps increase the walleye population. Here in NY, the DEC has found that stocking tiger muskies in lakes with natural walleye populations is often more beneficial to walleye pops than stocking additional walleye.

You stated

 Quote:

I don't like the fact that you would add or stock muskies in a healthy walleye lake.

Where would you suggest that muskies be stocked? Before you answer that, understand that muskies are not this out of control predator that destroys lakes. I am just honestly curious for those that are against stocking muskies in “healthy walleye lakes”, what types of fisheries do you believe they should be stocked in?

 Quote:

You also say lots about FACTUAL information is out there. I think you mean a lot of INFORMATION is out there.

There is lots of information out there, no doubt. And a lot of misinformation. That’s what sometimes makes it difficult to weed through the bad information and determine what is accurate. There are many that will use information and twist that information for their own agenda. But when I mention factual data, I do mean just that. There is lots of factual data out there. Some of it is pretty straight forward. While some of the facts are left up for interpretation on just what they mean.

By facts I am talking about years and years of data. The MN DNR has studied the lakes they have stocked with muskies from the day they were first introduced in those waters. Population assessments on all species on these waters is hard, factual data. Some clear cut conclusions can be drawn from these, while some things are still left up for interpretation. This is just one thing (of many) that is out there when I refer to the factual data that can be found with a little time.

 Quote:

And lastly, you say the DNR has an A+ record. My opinion would be about a C.

I am referring to an A+ track record in terms of its musky program. I will give you that an A+ probably is too high. But I couldn’t drop it any further than an A, as there is always room for improvement. But there is not another state in our country that has developed it’s musky fisheries as well as Minnesota and it’s not even close. In all honesty, when you sacrifice the health of your musky fishery on a given water, this is when you can start to see negative impacts on other species. Such as stocking them at too high of a rate. This WILL have negative impacts. This is proven. This is why I am very happy that MN stocks its waters to create low density musky fisheries. If you are giving the DNR a grade of C on how it has managed muskies, I would be very curious to know why or how you could knock them down that low?

 Quote:

If muskie are not native to a lake leave it that way. Your are arguing for musky and I am simply saying don't put them in lakes they are not native too.

This is possibly my favorite argument against musky stocking because it shows how short sited we can be. How can we say don’t stock muskies if they aren’t native to Lake X but we are all for stocking walleyes in hundreds of lakes that don’t have native walleye populations? Are walleyes native to Shamineau? Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for walleyes being stocked in our lakes. I love to fish for them. But what makes it ok to stock one non-native species and not another?

 Quote:

You said some would agrue that there is too much risk involved-well to a walleye fisherman, what is the reward???

Good question. And I will speak on this one AS a walleye fisherman. The first time I ever SAW a musky, I was fishing for walleyes. I hooked into one and was able to get it all the way to the boat before I lost it. What a blast! I also caught one of the bigger walleyes of my life on that day. Hooking into that musky, even though I didn’t catch it, was a blast and one of those accidental bonus fish that is always fun to have happen, no matter what I’m fishing for. When I’m fishing for crappies and hook into a 35” pike on 4 pound test through the ice like I had happen? Another one of those unexpected bonus fish that makes fishing great.

Having muskies in a lake is another opportunity I have. If I’m fishing for walleyes or bass and they aren’t going, it’s great to have another option to fish for. Angling pressure can actually DECREASE on your “favorite” species. There’s a lake that I fish where it used to be common to see 50 boats on the water with 40 of them fishing walleyes, 8 fishing bass and MAYBE 2 fishing muskies. Now there might still be just 50 boats out there, but now 20 of them might be musky fishing and only 20 to 25 are fishing walleyes. There’s less pressure on my walleyes. I have seen walleye fishing on that lake improve over the years. Not sure if it’s because muskies are helping (due to some of the above happenings) or walleyes are just easier to catch now because of less pressure. Either way, I’ve liked it. Some of those guys I’ve seen doing nothing but chasing walleyes out there are now casting for muskies on a regular basis. And yes, I’m joining them. But when I’m not, the walleyes are just a little easier to come by and I have more room to breathe on my good spots.

Honestly? In all the years I have been fishing for bass, walleyes, pike and panfish on lakes with muskies, I haven’t come across a single water where I’ve wished there weren’t muskies in there because the fishing experience would be better. Maybe it’s just the waters I fish. But I’ve fished a lot of lakes across MN and WI and these are my observations and experiences.

Djwood…

 Quote:

it seems to be rather simple ! if muskies were so good for a lake why did mother nature not put more of them into our 10,000 lakes ?

Again, let’s throw native walleye lakes and walleye stocking in general into the mix. Maybe we should consider halting all walleye stocking in our non-native lakes and see how that goes over. We as anglers are also predators of the fish that we target and we are the reason that we stock fish at all. Being a land based species, we are not native to these waters. Maybe us humans should stay off of and out of these lakes that we are not native to and things would be much simpler.

Aaron

[djwood]

my signature says pretty much what i believe ! we dont need to adjust to what we as humans believe mother nature messed up on ! what we do to make up for her mistakes or oversights are what we will see in the end as mans intent to destroy what was a good thing from the begining of time . less introduction and more planting of these speices we fish for in their native waters is a more reasonable approch to what we need with the fishing pressure. fish on and fish often ! djwood

[Tyler D]

The argument about not puting muskies in a lake where they are not native is pretty weak. Especially considering that if the DNR did not stock everyones beloved walleyes into 90% of the lakes in our state there would be no fishable populations in those lakes. Maybe we should stop stocking walleyes as well.

[Dano_the_jigasaurus]

I like to catch sunfish, and stocking walleyes in some of my sunfish lakes has made them better. Walleyes eat sunfish though.

So I guess its not all bad even though walleyes consume SOME of the sunfish. I think this is the same principle that AWH is getting at.

Shammy is still a great fishing lake even with the presence of muskies, it is possible to still go out and have good catches of anything.

Minnetonka is a great metro walleye lake with muskies. I guess I am just not seeing this connection with bad walleye fishing and skis.

It seems like most lakes with muskies has good fishing for other species as well.

tight lines

Dan

[Wallmaster]

[walleye casanova]

muskies eat walleyes. muskie fisherman bring extra money to local buisnesses. seems fair to me. the walleyes are there you just have to find them and put in your time. i know that sounds like a broken record but it is true. i have been out many times and now just have been catching a few. lots of smaller ones but a few bigger ones now. it wouldn't be as fun if a guy nailed them all the time!

[Coach1310]

Last I checked this thread was titled "Shamineau" not what you think about how or if muskies affect walleyes. Like I previously stated I always catch at least one nice fish each time out, but have yet to hammer out any patterns on this lake. Still love the lake

[DTB84]

My GF has a cabin on the lake and like coach1310 said I always seem to be able to pull large walleyes out of this lake. Caught 2 29 inchers this fall and a few others in the mid 20 inch range. It is such a clear lake that it seems like the bite is usually about an hour long right before dark. I have never done real well in terms of numbers usually get 3-6 every time out though. I have no opinion on Muskies as I dont fish for them, but I know that many of the people that live on the lake seem to think that they have a negative affect on the walleyes in the lake. I caught a 42 inch muskie last walleye opener on a medium light action rod. Took half an hour to land it and it was a real rush. Plus there are is no shortage of sunfish in the lake. Its just a really fun lake.

[CaptainMusky]

 Originally Posted By: djwood

my signature says pretty much what i believe ! we dont need to adjust to what we as humans believe mother nature messed up on ! what we do to make up for her mistakes or oversights are what we will see in the end as mans intent to destroy what was a good thing from the begining of time . less introduction and more planting of these speices we fish for in their native waters is a more reasonable approch to what we need with the fishing pressure. fish on and fish often ! djwood

By that comment you must be against stocking walleyes then too. If it is man's will to destroy, then why should the DNR have fisheries offices, why do we stock lakes with walleyes that already have them, why do we have season/limits, etc?

Everything that AWH has said is completely accurate and well though out. Though he does share an interest, as do I, in musky fishing, that does NOT mean his statements are in any way biased.

You will find that musky anglers in general are far more educated when it comes to topics like this because they have to always "justify" it to people like yourself.

There have been countless studies and studies on studies refuting everything that has been brought up as a concern in this post.

Are muskies a predator? Absolutely. Do they eat walleyes? Sure, but not to the numbers that people think. As AWH has said we could go on and on regarding specifics around this information, but there are much better food sources that a musky would prefer than a walleye. Bullheads, carp, suckers, tullibees, burbot, perch, to name a few.

Out of the main prey species (pike, walleyes and muskies), muskies have the biggest obstacles to overcome. They spawn the latest and are often subject to predation by YOY walleye and Pike. This is mainly why you do not see strong populations of muskies in lakes that have big pike populations. On Leech lake the muskies have adapted over time and actually spawn in different locations to avoid this.

It is always quick to make comments, but do yourself a favor and do some research. You will definitely be surprised by what you find.

FWIW, Alexander has some of the highest populations of walleye, crappies and smallies that it has ever had along with that the average size of each has gone up. There was detailed information presented by the DNR and Muskies Inc regarding this and shown to a group called "No More Muskies".

It is quite interesting the information that is out there.

[dfricke1010]

So I use to fish Shamineau for eyes very often about 6 years ago in the summer. I would fish 20 FOW with redtail chubs on a hook straight down and do very well. One year they werent there anymore so I got away from fishing eyes and got in to bass and pike then eventually muskies. This summer I am going to try to get in to eyes again. I know that the best time to fish them now is at night but im looking for any tips on bait and depth? I dont need your hot spot or anything but im just looking for some general hints or tips.

[Dano_the_jigasaurus]

The weeds in 13-18' are awesome after dark working the outside edge, that heavy cabbage holds fish. Otherwise most of the breakline 20-30' hold fish also. I have had success markin em on the graph then riggin or jiggin them. Typically I will use cranks up towards the weeds.

tight lines

dan

[Quetico]

How thick is the ice up there? My local contacts haven't been on the lake in the winter in years. Will an extension be required?

[Tyler D]

It is pretty thick but not quite extension worthy, I would say it was about 25-30 inches most every where I drilled last time I was out.

[cpinkert]

Wow, just killing time at work and stumbled onto this post.

Well stated Aaron. Education is the silver bullet and you killed the argument.

-Chris

[dfricke1010]

Thanks Dano, do you go after skis at all on Sham?

[Dano_the_jigasaurus]

Yeah,

Sham is a great muskie lake, but it can be hit or miss, so don't be discouraged after a poor day of fishing. Focus on the irregular edges of the the weedlines is where I would start. Don't be afraid to go shallow in the those reeds straight out from the access. When the fish are going out there they will eat almost anything. Hopefully that will get you started. If you post before you come up, I can try and give you a more current report.

dan

[dfricke1010]

Yeah I have seen the hit or miss in my experiences out there too. I have been mainly fishing with 1/2 ounce spinnerbaits for bass and northern but I have caught 4 muskies over 40 inches doing that. I decided this year to go mainly after muskies and some eyes. I just bought some bigger lures and a muskie rod and reel. What are some of your favorite lures on Sham for the skis?

[Dano_the_jigasaurus]

spinnerbaits and reef hawgs.

[Wash-Ups]

The worst predator for the walleye is the bass. If the lake has a healthy population of bass, you need to take out the bass in the 10-14 inch range. Name your top 5 walleye lakes in the state and you will have your top 5 muskie lakes also.

[Genofish]

Dano, can you shoot me a email. I would like to share notes with you. Genofish

[email protected]

[MUSKY18]

REEF HAWGS????? YOu still throwing them silly things Dano???

And actually, if you take the top 10 walleye lakes in the state, you will have the top 8-10 muskie lakes. Think about it fellas.......

[Quetico]

After talking with a few people who live around the lake, all I know for sure is that I cant wait till Musky season opens. And I'm not a musky.

[DHanson]

You are not a musky? Ok. I'm not going to get in this debate right now. The research is out there on the effects muskies have on lakes. Yes, the best walleye lakes in the state are also the best muskie lakes in the state. FYI, Shamineau is an awesome walleye and crappie lake. With big numbers and size on top of it, you just got to figure them out.

[dfricke1010]

I cant wait till musky season opens too i need to get my first 50" outa there.

Im also gonna try to figure out the eyes in there as well as those slabs.

[Tyler D]

Well the crappies I have had a tough time figuring out. I was all over that lake this winter with my H2O and all I could catch were walleyes, guess I cant complain to much since the walleyes I caught were very nice fish and some pretty good numbers to. The few crappies I caught were with the walleyes and they were all 12" plus just never found high nembers.

[Quetico]

Is Sham the best walleye like around or is Fishtrap and Alex better for eye's?

[DHanson]

Alexander is the best walleye lake of the 3 IMO. Shamineau is a close second. Fish Trap is a tough lake to figure out for walleyes, but there are some pigs in there.

[Tyler D]

I am not a fan of alex, actually i hate the lake. I dont really know why I've caught lots of small walleyes in there but never really got onto lots of nice ones, maybe i just havent tried it enough. Fish trap ive never actually targeted walleyes on I did catch a 28" on a wax worm while crappie fishing this year though so that was pretty sweet.

I never usually catch tons of fish on shamineau it just seems like when I do they are bigger. One wierd thing i have noted is that the only time i can catch walleyes through the ice is when it is bright and sunny with no clouds. If i get that type of day I will kill them starting around 3 pm, but if its cloudy I never seem to do well.

Probably all three are good just a matter of which one you know the best.

[Quetico]

Anyone do anything on opener on Sham? What depths are we looking for when it comes to eye's and crappies?