Cutting bullrushes

[ozzie]

Holiday Gas stations usually carry them....also noticed them in a few different grocery stores.

[Dave]

Super America has them as well.

[HossFisher]

I believe that gander mountain normally has them. Last time i was at the EP store they had them at the checkout lanes.

[Ebiz]

Post deleted by Ebiz

[Surface Tension]

On a small scale its not a big deal and there are provisions that allow a lake shore owner to do some alterations.

On the thought of whats good for our lakes. I wonder what those using paddle power are thinking about your outboards?

I wonder if a little of both concerns are out of envy?

Back to a bit of a sand blanket and weed removal.

How many here prefer a public, weed free, sandy beach?

How about a boat landing with a lane free of weeds to get the boat through.

Shall we bring up power loading again?

Then theres air born pollutants from autos, washed from the sky an into lakes by rain?

I could go on.

When we start to think about it all, we're not all that squeaky clean.

[vitalshot5]

AMEN!!!

[chaffmj]

Frank,

If I think to much my head starts to hurt. Your post made me think and now I have a headache.

Seriously, good post. We all want a little slice of the pie whether it is for a small hockey rink, a little sandy beach, lakes that are left alone and teeming with fish, motor use in some of the BWCA or a lake shore lot up the Echo trail.

Everybody has something that they want and think is ok but what is the price and how does it affect others? Where does it start and when should it end and who gets to make that call?

I use to own lake shore near Emily and cleared some weeds for a small beach and took down some trees for a view from the top of the hill, all legal but did that make it right? Some may think so and others will say no it should have been left natural. I sold that property because of what some others did to their lots that I didn't like. One guy took down all of his trees and put up a huge pole barn to park his RV in. A cell phone tower was put on some farmer’s property a couple miles away and the view from my cabin looking out across the lake changed, I could now look at red blinking lights on the tower. I look back now and wonder if I didn't bring some of that on myself by what I did.

I now own lake shore on Big Lake up the Echo Trail. I cleared a minimum number of trees to put up a 16x20 screen house which is barely visible from the lake. I thought I had gotten away from the things that made me sell my other property. I was wrong. One of the small resorts on the lake sells off to a developer that wants to chop up the lake shore and double the capacity of the resort. A small lot that was deemed by the county unbuildable gets a new owner who finagles his way around the zoning laws to get a permit and is building away in spite of notice from the county to stop. A lake association is formed and a lawyer hired and law suits are filed.

Where does it end and who is right or wrong? I don't know!

[Hammer Handle]

I see people pulling/cutting weeds and raking the lake bottom and adding sand all the time.

I call it in, and nothing happens?

Many people know it is legal, but know their odds of getting caught are very unlikely...even if turned in.

I am in the process of putting rocks on my lakeshore to prevent ice-out damage on my shore (seem to be losing 1 foot of lakeshore a year). It is hard, for I want all the natural plants and reeds to stay also. I have seen all the regulations first-hand...so how do so many people get by with not following them?

[Jackpine Rob]

A guy cutting some rushes off in the fall to make a skating rink?

Things could be a lot worse fellas.

He's right - the rushes will grow back in the spring, but his method of disposal is a bit suspect.

He's not dumping chemicals in, or digging up the bottom, or causing any permanent damage of any kind whatsoever. Sounds like, all things considered, he took a pretty reasonable approach to the situation (again, excepting out the removal portion).

But back to his underlying scheme - a skating rink for kids. I would humbly submit that a guy who's willing to go to the time and trouble and work to make a skating rink for kids can't be all bad. In fact, if he's getting a couple of youngsters out from in front of the TV or computer to skate outdoors, he sounds like the kind of guy I'd like to buy a cold one for.

Are we so into our own pursuits and desires and wishes that we would rain on the parade of a guy causing no lasting damage but with an obviously good motive?

And would anyone really go and intentionally cut holes in a skating rink to wreck it for the kids???? With the entire rest of the lake out there to fish and enjoy, why would anyone even suggest this?

Gosh, I hope we are nicer people than that.

[Ebiz]

Jackpine - point taken, you are absolutely correct. I deleted my post, one of those things you type without really thinking it through from all angles. I never considered the whole kid's skating rink idea and would never recommend intentionally ruining something like that.

When I first read this post I just flashed back to a couple years ago ice fishing on a metro lake during first ice. We hadn't had any snow yet and the ice was like glass. I set-up in one of my favorite spots which happened to be 30-40 yards away from shore. Wasn't there a half an hour when the homeowner comes out yelling that I had to move and not to drill anymore holes in "his" skating rink and that I was going to ruin it for the rest of the year. Being a real A$$ about it as well. Keep in mind there weren't any cones or markers or anything that would indicate that he had or was using it for a rink. I did move just because I go out there to relax not get yelled at, but the thought did cross my mind to go back and drill that grid of holes.

I've run into an increasing amount of lakeshore owners who think they own the whole lake and can just run their mouth off and threaten anyone who comes within earshot of their dock/shore and it gets pretty old after a while.

But..... as you pointed out - there are always two sides to the coin and it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt. Hope he does get some kids out from in front of the TV and on the lake!

[Jackpine Rob]

Fair enough EBiz.

It just seemed to me like a whole bunch of guys were piling on and crying foul without thinking the thing through.

Good luck on first ice (can't be long now, eh?)

[livintofish]

Jackpine, I don't think this has anything to do with not being nice people, nor is anyone out to persecute peoples agendas. What this guy was doing in the first place showed that he is not very well educated in aquatic systems and knew it, by not even responding to another concerned citizen. "I like fish", what kind of response is that, one that proves with his actions that he doesn't understand fish at all. Bulrushes are in fact one of the more fragile types of aquatice vegitation and will not vegitativly regrow much of the time, furthermore how hard is it to clear a path to the edge of the rushes and skate there, the lake is afterall not his property anyway, frozen or liquid, that is a privelege. Water is public property as should be the adjoining shoreline/shoreland that many lakeshore owners seem to take possesion of and modify in a way that EFFECTS THE WHOLE LAKE ECOSYSTEM. If anyone has any questions about shorland restoration, the DNR has a program that does restorations on peoples lakeshore, we all have the internet as well, it may be a little effort but its pretty easy to go and research some info on natural shorlines. In this case if you have trouble with errosion (losing a foot off shore a year), or ice out issues natural means WILL solve them odds are if you have these problems that that lakeshore was at sometime artificially modified (maybe even with good intensions), but natural means were put there for a reason. Trees, natural rock, various types of shoreland brush, aquatic veg, all of these work together to maintain a healthy, species rich shorline. Da Chise I love your point about people taking the time to understand cell phones, HDTV, and how many career TDs Farve has thrown, but what about the environment we all live in. Just a basic knowledge of such would drasticly improve highly human influenced ecosystems all around us...... and now everyones ears will perk up...that means more big WALLEYES, Gills, Skis and whatever you are into chasing, they are all tied together in the system and effeced from the bottom up. I would just think people would want to protect the lake they live on, I don't even live on one and am concerned about them. I guess the point is nature put them there for a reason, all of these weeds, and brush, and trees are habitat, that means home for wildlife that we all enjoy and like to see, catch, eat, and so on....It's as easy as simple education before making modifications to the ecosystem. I don't believe most people would start tearing their house,plumbing, electrical apart without knowing what they were doing, or consulting a professional, lets start applying this logic to the world we live in.

[livintofish]

It has also struck me kind of funny the way habitat alterations are viewed and attitudes towards them...Not much different I guess then alot of regulated things in this country, like: I will drive as fast as you say I can, and sometimes go just a bit over the line, and thats ok as long as I don't get caught. This is the attitude I see a lot when it comes to environmental regs, how much can I get away with. Sometimes I don't know if people stop to think about WHY these regs are there, "maybe" they are an instrumental part of maintaining our natural resources and that is why they are there, set there by professionals that care deeply about the resource. Maybe rather then mearly being in compliance with them, we should learn why thats important, then it will have meaning to us. I thought that was what most city slickers liked anyway about going "up North" to their cabin is the natural beauty of the outdoors the way it was made. Living in amongst nature, and not removing it for a clear turfgrass treeless view.

[walleyemkr]

Although what the 'skating rink guy' did is minor in the grand scheme of things, the point remains that he still cut bulrush w/o a permit. Even cutting at the water's / ice surface is illegal because it still has the POTENTIAL to kill the plants given certain conditions.

There are some things lakeshore property owners can do w/ the aquatic veg AND sand blankets without a permit...that might be a reason why some of the above-mentioned complaints to the DNR didn't appear to be followed up on...MIGHT be.

I agree it's probably a drop in the bucket in the big picture, but if everybody does it...

[fishermusk]

I fish with an older gentelman who used to live on Forest lake. He told me that lake one used to have bullrushes all the way around it. I wish I could have seen that. I like the fact that he was doing something to get his kids outdoors, the problem is that when these kids grow up and get a piece of lakeshore they will do the same things. Its only going to get worse. Its hard to break the cycle. You have to start somewere, and say enough!

Water quality is directly related to lake shore pratices. Before you know it all of our lakes in Minnesota will a nice green pea soup. We'll sure enjoy fishing and swimming in them then.

Good Luck,

Dave

[smnduck]

If bullrushes are uprooted they will not grow back. They need at least a partial growing season out of the water to start. No exposed lakeshore and the rushes will not grow back. If they are cut just below the surface then the root system stays intact and it has a chance to grow back.

[walleyemkr]

They have a CHANCE to grow back w/ the root system in place. A chance. Bulrush is a) next to impossible to plant / restore, and does not spread well on its own naturally and w/o disturbance. That's why any activities that even have the potential of killing the vegetation (bulrush cutting at the water line in this case) is illegal. As was stated above, the aquatic vegetation (and ESPECIALLY bulrush) is what keeps MN lakes clear...if more people put that together, we may not have AS many problems!

[Hammer Handle]

I see so many lakeshores ruined for people want to make it clear of trees and brush and weeds so they can "see the lake" and have a "swimming hole". Big business also fills in swamplands to build more buildings.

All I can do is to make sure my lake lot stays natural for me AND mother nature to enjoy. I have a dock "in the weeds", but the kids love it for I have great fishing off my dock. Just last weekend, my nephew caught a 4 pound bass casting off the dock.

Neighbors don't understand when they ask "Can I fish off your dock" and I say "No". My attitude is that they ruined their fishing off their dock when they cleaned it out...why should I let them use mine??

[walleyemkr]

That is fantastic hammer handle...way to make your point w/ the neighbors! With the increased development on 'marginal' (but sensitive) lakeshore, the chaos will probably only continue as people w/ white sand beaches and a picturesque view in mind purchase and build on lakeshore fringed by 100' of cattails w/ a mucky bottom.

[MIKE IN lINO III]

I have lake property up north and the Water & Soil Conservation dept said that I can CLEAR a 15' wide path out to the main lake....no permit required, all legal.

Just a FYI, not looking to stur the pot.

By the time fall rolls around it has pretty much all grown back. I will be up there this weekend duck hunting off of my lakeshore.

Mike

[Hammer Handle]

One of the worst things I see, is cutting off the trees near the lakeshore. I even know people that have done this...all for the purpose of viewing the lake from their cabin.

Then, in a few years they have to "haul in rocks" to protect their shore as it is erroding away.

Sorry to get off topic, but things are starting to change. I see many people planted water plants back on their shore to protect it. The DNR has people that will give you advice on how to do this.

[fivebucks]

Mike,

The rules state you can clear submergant vegetation without a permit. All emmergant vegegation needs a permit with which you can clear 15'. That is the way I read the DNR website and what I have been told.

[walleyemkr]

Fivebucks is right Mike...the 15' path to open water WITHOUT a permit is ONLY for either a) strictly submergents or strictly floating-leaf vegetation. ONLY. It happens quite often that people get an answer from the County, a lake association, or SWCD that is KIND OF right. Lakeward of the ordinary high water mark on public waters is DNR jurisdisction, NOT County / SWCD / or someone else. ANY emergent vegetation clearing needs a permit, be it cattails, wild rice, bulrush, etc...

[JP Z]

And that is the problem that arises when we "TRY" to do the right thing as told to us by an official....they are taking certain liberties with what they THINK they have jurisdiction over. I just wish more officials knew what side of the line they actually had control over, and not overstepping boundaries and then causing us the lakeshore owner the problem when the correct offical steps in and says we were incorrect and should have gone to them instead. Which is why I have asked each and everyone that MAY be responsible......and I still get differing opinions...I think some folks just have minor control issues they let all that power go to their heads.

[livintofish]

Just a ? for you then Mike. This seems to go back to what I was talking about earlier, with people wanting to do everything they can within the limits of law. Why exactly do you want to clear your whole shoreline? And what are you clearing? Just trying to understand the situation a little better.

[Jackpine Rob]

Did I miss something? I thought Mike was talking about a 15' strip that grew back each year.

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like Mike's rushes didn't get the message that they are fragile plants that aren't supposed to grow back if cut. Doggone it!

[livintofish]

jpz, That sounds like a whole lot of complication and politics to me. Now you could just research it a little bit and do the thing that is good for the environment your lakeshore happens to be in. This way you would be doing something that sustains healthy populations of willife (like that trout in your hand, there are many sensitive fishes just like them in all lakes), and you wouldn't have to worry about the law! Its like anything else in life, if your worried about breaking the law.....ITS BECAUSE YOUR TRYING TO DO SOMETHING YOU SHOULDNT BE ANYWAYS....right?

[livintofish]

Quote:

---

Did I miss something? I thought Mike was talking about a 15' strip that grew back each year.

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like Mike's rushes didn't get the message that they are fragile plants that aren't supposed to grow back if cut. Doggone it!

---

Evidently you did miss something, because what you said makes no sense, and he didn't even say what he was cutting...learn a bit about rushes, that is true and has been reaffirmed be several people. That was funny though.... really

[JP Z]

livintofish,

asked if I could remove branches on some trees to raise the canopy. Dnr said NO, Soil and water said YES. And not so they are twigs just a raise so yes, I can see the lake a bit but still have trees....Or if I cut trees above the high water mark, can I remove the stumps....NO....says the Soil and water......YES says the DNR, as long as you grind them and leave the roots.... Get my point...Trying to get a solid answer.

[livintofish]

jpz,

So from what it sounds like, you had the DNR Specialist out to your house, he told you what you can and can't do....Since the DNR is the MN state authority on these shoreline matters theres your answer. The DNR wouldn't tell somebody they couldn't do something if it wasn't going to have an effect on wildlife and the lake. And it sounds like your not happy with that answer, would it be possible to put a wooden bench out by the lakeshore where you could sit and enjoy the view? Let me share an observation I made this past summer while working on a number of fairly undeveloped lakes in Northern MN. It was a beautiful lake view with coniferous trees skirting the shores of many lakes in undeveloped OR more nature friendly conservatively developed areas where lakeshore "owners" had left the vast majority of native vegetation. However in many areas you could see where people had come in and ripped out everything in sight for that turfgrass lawn and either had a quickly eroding grass bank, fake sand beach, or landscaped riprap which provided a view of the lake from their house, but also a view of thier house and whatever junk they had in their backyard to anyone from the lake, or across it for that matter. I wouldn't think that to be a desirable trait, in fact I believe that is why so many people take fishing trips to the Canadian wilderness each year. Just some thoughts on what a more natural shorline can do for the looks of a lake, let alone the wildlife populations that inhabit all of that shorline brush and trees, everyone likes watching songbirds right? Just some thoughts...