Deer Numbers

[icehole10]

harvey lee, If you don't mind me asking what part of north dakota do you hunt in. I hunt around the oakes area and can honestly say that the only thing hurting our deer hunting in that area is the high pheasant population. all the deer seem to be getting pushed around for a month before season, but all and all I still see plenty of deer.

[harvey lee]

I hunt south of Leonard approx 12 miles right along the Sheyenne river and around the Sheyenne Nat. Grasslands.We hunt mainly a very wooded area along the river where pheasants hunters are not a problem with pushing deer.It is also all private property which does help.

Leonard is approx 50 minutes south west of Fargo.

[lcornice]

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Check out some other state links to see why mature bucks are being harvested in their states and we are stuck being happy with 4 pointers....

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You left out Minnesota:

http://www.magnumsports.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Kill_Zone_2006

[Chad Holst]

I'm no expert, but i do know that deer numbers are up almost ALL over the state. In my area both bow and rifle hunters are able to take 5 deer! 5! If numbers were down, would they be doing that? Of course not.

I work at a small, out in the country, gas station/grocery store, that registers deer. We registered just under 1000 deer in just over 2 weeks. I talk to ALOT of hunters, and i think its funny when i hear hunters, shooting rifles that are very capable of hitting a deer 200-300 yards away saying "MAN, we didnt see crap! I thought there were alot of deer up here! I think its just talk to get us to spend money, etc, etc etc...". Why do i find this funny? I bow hunt, and have had MANY MANY opportunities to shoot. And, if i had been hunting with a rifle? HOLY CRAP! I could have shot atleast 30 dear EVERY time i went out! Whats my point? Deer hunters seem to think, if the numbers are up, then my work goes down! They think big numbers means they are just going to walk out in the woods, sit for 30 minutes, have a booner walk upto them stand quartered away and say "SHOOT ME"! Well, sorry boys, thats not how it works. I have always found it funny, when a hunter, wearing his hunting clothes, and hunting boots, and other hunting gear, pulls up in his 4x4 truck, leaving it running, walks threw the truck exhaust, throws out his cig that was hanging from his mouth, walks into our store, pets our dog, TOUCHES EVERYTHING, then says "NOPE, DIDNT SEE ANYTHING!" WOW! What does he expect, that because there are SOO many deer that he should be able to smell like a dump truck and still get one? Ask him, and it will be "the weather was too warm" "the weather was too cold" "the moon was full" "the heard is small" etc..etc..etc..

Why do i see more dear? I act like there ARE NOT a million deer out there. I try to stay scent free, i am carefull about wind, odor, noise, feeding areas, bedding areas, etc... In short, I actually HUNT.

The next time someone complains about not seeing deer ask him what HE'S doing wrong. Its not the deer, and its not the DNR.

OK, The other topic here was buck size in MN. There is nothing wrong with the size of the bucks here. I wieghed a 330 pounder(275 field dressed) 10 pointer (163 green scored) just 2 weeks ago. Deer still get big, we just need a few things to make sure they have a chance to stay that way.

1st: EARN A BUCK! Want to shoot a buck? then shoot a doe first. This will help with the HUGE heards in our area, and it will cut down on future booners getting shot. Although the does and less mature bucks are pretty dumb, the bigger boys stop running durring the light hours after the guns start blairing.

( By the way, if you dont think there are too many deer, just ask the NDR, they were setup outside our store, checking the deer for TB because mother nature is starting to take care of what hunters cant/wont)

2nd: DONT ENTER OR SUPPORT "BIG BUCK CONTEST". This is Dumb for both businesses doing it and for hunters.

They want more business, you want bigger deer. So why not have 92.5 pound doe contests? They simply pick an average doe size, and anyone that brings in a doe, or button buck that wieghs that amount, the get entered into what used to be the "big buck" prize. More people would register deer that they may not usually register (happens ALOT around here), more people would stop passing on deer we NEED shot, and more people would understand the importance of heard managment. Not to mention the amount of bucks saved, and the quality of those bucks. When there are fewer does and more bucks going after them, the better, stronger bucks get a chance to breed them, making a better class buck in years to come.

This "must only shoot a mature buck, or a HUGE doe" mentality, has to stop. The only way to do this is to educate these hunters. Not tell them one thing and then show (via big buck contests)the opposite.

Here is a quiz:

The best deer to shoot, when managing an over populated heard is..

A)A young buck, that look to have 4 points with a very narrow inside spread, and very short tines.

B)An adult doe, that looks to be average to above average size.

C) a small, doe fawn, that is the size of a big dog.

D) A mature buck

E) A small-average adult doe.

So, being honest, what would you say?

I bet 10% of the HUNTERS know that the answer is C. Why a fawn doe that looks under sized? Because they are going to be bread still, and they are going to have runt babies that are much more suseptible to disease, weather, etc.. These fawn does should NOT be the size of a dog when they are in the middle of the MN gun season, and if they are, we need to motivate hunters to shoot them! NOT pick on them like they are less capable than the next guy. It's funny, i would ask, when i was filling out a reg. tag for hunters "what did yah get?" and they would put there head down, and say "aw just a little one!" I would say "A FAWN? Buck or doe?" they would say "doe " and frown..I would then say, in an energetic voice "great man! Thats just what we need around here..wish more people understand what you and i do!"..they would look up, and be like.."yah, yah...YOUR RIGHT"...

See, its peoples attitudes that are going to help, that and good information to base these "good" attitudes around.

thanks for reading my very long rant. I hope it made some sense.

[Craig_S]

sirlips,

That makes perfect sense. And very well presented too. You have put into words my exact perspective. I give you an award of excellence for the day. Coming from me, that means nothing. So enjoy.

Craig

[McGurk]

One of the best posts I've read in a while, thanks for the reply, sirlips.

[harvey lee]

Very well said and thought out.

[CANOPY SAM]

Lips,

That is an exceptionally well written post, and I agree whole-heartedly. It's such a cliche' to blame the DNR when hunters / fisherman don't "fill-out". Thanks for your insight and wisdom on this topic.

Many of you noted some of the really important extenuating circumstances that decreased daytime deer movement this year. When the deer aren't moving too you, you need to get moving to the deer. Be careful, be mindfull of wind and scent, and general deer locations for bedding, feeding and watering, and you'll likely get a deer.

Without a doubt there are pockets of geography throughout our state where deer numbers are lower than other areas. Perhaps calling or writing the DNR about your observations, backed by physical evidence, and a public concensus that numbers are down, perhaps they will adjust bag limits and restrictions for that area. It's been done before.

Big deer, at least remarkable bucks, are taken, for the most part, by seasoned hunters that put in their time and know the animals movement well. There are huge numbers of really big bucks in this state, and we see hundreds of them taken every year. But Lips makes a point - they don't make themselves seen when conditions change in the woods. They're older, smarter and experienced at being hunted.

There are a couple questions that should be looked at here. Is there still a lot of standing corn, or sunflowers in the area where you are not "seeing" deer? Are there large cattail sloughs around the area, or vast expanses of CRP? Is there only black dirt everywhere you look? If deer aren't moving they are likely bedded somewhere, and they don't usually sleep where you can see them. You might have to work REALLY hard to find deer, but I'll wager that they are there!

As for not hunting deer in an area with perceived low numbers of deer, I guess we should close the grouse season for about 6 years during the low side of the cycle as well?

I'm not presuming that anyone here isn't a good deer hunter. But I have seen a lot of people out there that couldn't find a deer, let alone ethically harvest one, without some serious help.

[Eyehawk]

Thank you for posting this lips, because it is so true. I like your example of how some deer hunters act with being careless about scent and how they actually do hunt. Because most of it is true. I think alot of hunters realize that we need to shoot more does and fawns, especially fawns that are does. Lips it is true though, because I do too bow hunt up near Bemidji, and if you put your time into scouting and do everything right you will see alot of deer, and think to yourself "man I wish it was rifle season becuase I would have my 5 right now." But its just fun to see deer in their natural habitat and being themseleves as well.

Hey Lips do you work at Luebuke's gas station? (sorry about the spelling) Cuz I hear of a monster shot down there by Guthrie, that weighed 275 lbs. That must of been a monster, but they are up there you just have to put your time into it, and quit whining about not seeing deer. Plus bucks that old don't get like from being stupid.

[icehole10]

harvey, I'm familiar with the area you hunt. I live in fargo and have done some bow hunting on the east edge of the sand hills. About 5-7 miles south of 46 on hiway 18. There are some real brutes running around those neck of the woods.

[harvey lee]

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harvey, I'm familiar with the area you hunt. I live in fargo and have done some bow hunting on the east edge of the sand hills. About 5-7 miles south of 46 on hiway 18. There are some real brutes running around those neck of the woods.

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And a big neck of the woods it is.

[BLACKJACK]

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Traditionally the western part of the state had very few trees and prairie chicken flourished because of the native prairies that were once there. Now because of those trees and groves in many areas the chickens populations are dwindling. Dothe chickens not have the same "rights" as the deer to be there?

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KNUTE, the problem that I have with the whole idea of managing for prairie chickens instead of deer and pheasants is that there are 500,000 deer hunters in MN and how many prairie chicken hunters? 200? Deer hunters all over are looking - even begging - to find places to hunt and the powers that be are cutting down great deer habitat - so a couple a hundred prairie chickens can be shot. When you have lots of grapes, make wine. If you have deer habitat, leave it, don't try and manage for something that very few can see and hunt.

I think its a dirty crying shame whats being done to some of the WPA's around the state, cutting down the trees, they're practically barren wastelands this time of year.

[Swill]

What is being lost in this "deer numbers" debate is what has the DNR done to improve hunting opportunities on public land in MN. If you live in rural MN, like Bemidji, you have more opportunties and access to public land and resources than a person who can't afford or his limited time to spend every weekend driving up north to hunt deer. Plus, you have an economic advantage because such great hunting and fishing is in your backyard.

I would consider myself very knowledgable on the right way to gear up, scout, and hunt whitetail deer. However, the playing field is not equal for hunting deer in MN.

It is a fact if you hunt private land in MN or if you have access to remote public land in MN you will have a higher chance to harvest deer.

Just try to have the same success hunting public land in Sherburne County, instead of Beltrami, and I can assure you that between your results will not be the same.

Again, your posts was very good, but again I ask...

How has the MN DNR improved public land hunting in MN across the state? Or if there are limitations as to what they can do.... What is the long term quality deer managment plan for the state of MN?

What would be wrong with making the DNR give annual quality deer management status reports for each zone? What would be wrong with harvesting more monoculture stands of timber for improving habitat diversity? What would be wrong with pushing out the deer gun season a few weeks?

Given the increased cost of land, overpopulation, and pressure on public land it will not be long before Beltrami is like the rest of the state.

Look out those "cities people" are coming with cash in hand to buy up all the land, or to crowd on the public land. Think I am lying? Look at the average cost of a 40? Look at all the increased pressure of "traditional" duck hunting spots in the area? Or pressure on the lakes? What does lakefront property run on Cass lake these days? Or leech?

I should not even care anymore because i am buying land in the next few years, but I still feel we have an obligation to future generations and to those who can't afford a place up north or for those who can't afford the cost to stay in a hotel and drive 3-4 hours up north to provide them a decent opportunity to enjoy the outdoors on public land managed by the DNR.

Interesting bio on Theodore Roosevelt, American's greatest conversation steward that ever lived.

http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/biotr.htm

His specific achievements are numerous. Perhaps his greatest contribution was his work for conservation. During his tenure in the White House from 1901 to 1909, he designated 150 National Forests, the first 51 Federal Bird Reservations, 5 National Parks, the first 18 National Monuments, the first 4 National Game Preserves, and the first 21 Reclamation Projects. Altogether, in the seven-and-one-half years he was in office, he provided federal protection for almost 230 million acres, a land area equivalent to that of all the East coast states from Maine to Florida.

[grizzald]

Ortonville, I emailed the guy that manages our deer heard for 424 and he wrote me back saying the total registration of deer during slug hunting is down 23% compared to last year.

[slammer]

We hunt Zone 4 along the Ottertail and Red rivers and deer were considerably less in numbers this year. Last weekend the CO told us that this area was down 300-400 registered deer. Their still around but you have to get out and look for them. The last 2 weekends of muzzle hunting have been quiet around here but there is still time. My opinion on the low numbers here are too many tags for too many years. Something's got to change!!

[Eyehawk]

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Just try to have the same success hunting public land in Sherburne County, instead of Beltrami, and I can assure you that between your results will not be the same.

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That all depends on the hunting season. If it's bow or muzzleloader season you can go anywhere you want on public land mostly. During rifle season it is a joke up here to hunt on public land because its just as bad with alot of people as central minnesota (benton county)

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Given the increased cost of land, overpopulation, and pressure on public land it will not be long before Beltrami is like the rest of the state.

[Look out those "cities people" are coming with cash in hand to buy up all the land, or to crowd on the public land. Think I am lying? Look at the average cost of a 40? Look at all the increased pressure of "traditional" duck hunting spots in the area? Or pressure on the lakes? What does lakefront property run on Cass lake these days? Or leech?

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It already is, its a joke! I came up here to live to get away from people, especially the crowds that I experienced on the lakes in central minnesota. But now everyone comes up here and hits the smaller lakes and pressures them way to much. I hope the lakes up here do NOT become like the lakes where I grew up in central minnesota which are average.

[Chad Holst]

eyehawk, Yes i work at luepkes. That is the same deer i was talking about in my thread...What a horse! Best part about it, was the man that shot it (luepkes son in-law) was just on leave, from Iraq, for 2 weeks! He got in on friday the 3rd..hunted a couple days and then harvested that buck on monday or tuesday! It greened at 163. Couldnt say anyone deserves it more.

Back on topic.

FYI, I just moved from southern MN to bemidji/nary area. I must say, finding land here is MUCH harder than southern MN. Also, I am not a good example, to base this on, as i bow hunt, and people are MUCH more open to letting a middle aged, "clean cut" bow hunter onto their land, than a rifle/shotgun hunter.

One thing i wasnt used to here compaired to southern MN, was dealing with other hunters (besides a few other bow hunters), PRE-rifle/shotgun season. There were alot of people were i public land hunted that had bear stations set up. Grouse hunters were not uncommon to see, and ALOT of people were scouting, and setting stands for rifle. SO, in the end, i think it evens out. Northern MN has more public land, but we also have more "active" hunters (bear, bird..etc.)

What do you feel about the "EARN a buck" idea? Do you think MN hunters would be able to "deal" with it?

[Eyehawk]

Awesome, I thought it might be the same deer, and a good story for Luepke's son-in-law.

You hit it right on the nose sirlips, that even though there is a lot of state land to deer hunt, either with a bow, smoke pole or rifle, you will encounter alot of different hunters (bird, or big game) thats why owning your own land is best for seeing the most deer during season. No one can screw up your hunt besides you, and thats the way it should be. It irritates a guy when other hunters or non-hunters do not respect you or your hunt, and screw it up for you. Being that I am a college student I can go just about every day to bow hunt, so if my hunt gets screwed up for one night then I can just go out the next morning or night, but once a guy gets job and/or a family your time gets limited to when you can be out in the woods hunting and you have to make it count. I remember reading an opinion letter to the Minnesota Outdoor News newspaper about a younger guy from the suburbs who has a family and a good job and he talked about how hard it was to get away to deer hunt, because of the time requirements deer hunting has (you do need to put your time in to find the deer, especially the big bucks). While he can go out on a Saturday morning with his buddies to go duck hunting or pheasent hunting and still be home later on in the day to be with his wife and kids, because of the less time requirements those types of hunting take up. Thats why I can see why the DNR is concerned with the lesser number of participants in deer hunting who are 18-40 years of age, and a greater number in the ages of 40 and on up. Participation in deer hunting is a key on bringing down the deer herd in this state, but the wolves take their fair share. The wolve population I would say is the highest it has been for years, as I have heard reports of wolves being as far south as the Remer/Outing area to the Northome, and Red Lake areas and everything east all the way to the Boundary Waters. Thats just a general area but I am sure people farther south of Remer have seen wolves and in northwestern Minnesota as well. Thats why you hear the mixed reports of groups filling out their tags and other reports saying that they did not see anything would be common because of the wolves chasing the deer around and pushing them out of an area and into another.

Also I do not think the number the DNR put out to the public for a state deer herd population of 1.3 million is totally accurate, as it is probably lower and closer to just 1 million or even lesser than that.

[Swill]

Sirlips...

I would love "EARN a buck" idea.

And I think I am going to take the same approach as you to finding private land to bowhunt.

As far as active hunters...Yes, it can even out, but I know of people who hunt in NE MN near Grand Marais and those people are lucky if they ever run into another hunter. And I would guess deer hunting north of Grand Rapids and near Ely is the same. Bemidji area? I know first hand the other types of hunters around there. You are right there are lot of other hunters, but down here we too have a lot of people too. I would guess the Chippewa National Forest north of Cass Lake would be pretty quiet during the week? I know as a college student during the mid 90's at BSU, we hunted during the week and it was wide open. But things could have changed...

Anyways...good posts everyone one. Hopefully the DNR will make some changes, and if we are really lucky they might purchase some more public land to spread out the hunting pressure.

Support Earn a buck!

[HC Eye Hunter]

Blackjack,

I am from the Appleton area and know exactly what you are saying. The last time I made a post about the subject of removing critical deer habitat on public ground for prairie chickens I was chastized by some of the folks on this forum.

The facts are finally coming out in the wash with the deer numbers being significantly down in this part of the state. I would like to know if there is honestly a plan to keep a healthy deer population in western MN.

Since the removal of the woody habitat, our prairies have taken on a whole new look. Whether you agree or disagree with the DNR on tree removal something needs to be done with the deer seasons ASAP.

I honestly believe the only way to rectify the situation out here is to restructure zone 4 and add a prairie management zone. Then go to a limited drawing for both slug and muzzleloader or be faced with no deer at all.

And, that's my view!

[ortonville]

HC eyehunter

i am from ortonville and everything you said hits the nail on the head!!!i would love to see a paririe zone that would be the best thing ever

[Rost]

Good Call Ortonville- I hunted south in Ivanhoe area. Prior to the season my brother kept telling me that the deer population is way down. I honestly didn't believe him until I saw it for myself. And it's not only us, most of the other groups we hang with struggled to find deer as well.

The rest of the state may be different, but Western/SW MN in general needs a revamp.

[BLACKJACK]

HC, when they're cutting the trees down for prairie chicken habitat, are they on Wildlife Management Areas (yellow sign) or Waterfowl Production Areas? I know in this area, its the WPA's that are taking a hit, some of them look like barren wastelands when they're done, good luck finding a pheasant or deer on them.

Go figure, there are 600,000 deer hunters and 100,000 pheasant hunters in this state, lots looking for places to hunt on public land, so they're cutting down prime deer habitat and even shelterbelts that pheasants can use - just so a few prairie chickens can exist. You need to let the responsible agency know how you feel. Contact the local sportsmans clubs and get them involved. In our area, even people that aren't hunters are disgusted with all the tree cutting.

[HC Eye Hunter]

Blackjack,

I am not sure, it seems that everything around here that is not private and is above a certain sea level is getting hit.

My feeling is that if there are major decisions being made on public ground that affect the landscape, the wildlife and ultimatly our community economics maybe a new decision making process should be addressed. I am thinking of something like a citizen advisory board or something of that nature.

It may be helpful to all parties, DNR and outdoorsmen alike, to offer their views on major subjects like tree removal, zone restructuring, license options and all the other things that need to be addressed on an annual basis.

[BLACKJACK]

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My feeling is that if there are major decisions being made on public ground that affect the landscape, the wildlife and ultimatly our community economics maybe a new decision making process should be addressed. I am thinking of something like a citizen advisory board or something of that nature.

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I agree but I think thats why you need to find out what type of lands they are. If they are Wildlife Management Areas, they are managed by the MN DNR. If they are Waterfowl Production Areas, those are federal lands and are managed by the Fish and Wildlife service. The problem is, even though it says Fish and WILDLIFE on their trucks and uniforms, they have ducks on their brain, they're managing for ducks only, their thoughts are that trees=predators. Do some burns and some selected tree removal, but don't make the whole landscape into a barren wasteland, think about other WILDLIFE.

[bigbucks]

I'm not opposed to some prairie chicken or duck habitat, if it isn't at a significant impact to the most popular & most revenue producing type of hunting. Like someone said 600,000 deer hunters compared to 200 prairie chicken or 100,000 pheasant hunters or whatever isn't exactly even. Of course I understand it's not anywhere that far out of proportion where as all 200 prairie chicken hunters will be in western MN & only a "mere" what 30-50,000 deer hunters will be there? There would seem to be some logic in more significantly limiting the deer take in areas where the numbers are extremely low, if it bears out that they're as low as it would appear from the comments on this topic.