Netting on Red

[kelly-p]

clean livin prevails, Fish-On and wallyhanger. One thing that you have to remember is that the walleyes would never have been netted if someone didn't buy them. A very, very big part of the sold walleyes were sold to "sportsmen" in parking lots of bars. There is enough blame to go around for everyone to share and NO ONE is blame free. For over 25 years "sportsmen" were buying fish and many of them knew they destroying the fisheries in the Red Lakes but they bought the fish anyway. White people were buying and reselling the fish. Millions of people knew of the fish being sold but no one did anything. A lot of people didn't care about the Red Lakes or what was happening until the crappies came. After this crappie "boom" slows down a lot of people will go back to not caring about the lake.
In my opinion by both hook and line overlimits and by buying bootlegged fish white "sportsmen" were just as much to blame as the Native people for the collapse of the walleyes.

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Waskish Minnow Station
218-647-8652

[Surface Tension]

WELL WELL WELL I have been away. The situation the Indians are in right now is close to what our fore fathers intended, ALMOST!
Thats right. Stick them all on a small piece of land. Take away there way of living. Make them dependant on what the government decides to give them to survive and hopefully they will fade away in time. Seems to me they said FU and some how there still around and getting stronger. HeII ya theres problems on the RES,is it any wonder why. The strongest nation on earth (USA)tried to extermanate a RACE and there still around and have found a way to fight back. There using the laws we opposed on them to do so. You cannot go aganist a treaty any more than you can the Constitution!
About casinos you have the right to stay out of them!!!
I know my history but I can look at both sides. Yes Indian Nations had there wars and aquirred land by doing so. We had a civil war too. How did the USA got all its land,we took it or said sell it to us or we will take it.

Lets look at it this way. 30 years ago Russia came over and took the US from us. Need I say more?
Halad your SurfaceTension is acting up again. Try an eniema...

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 08-26-2002).]

[Katoman]

Wallyhanger
What is it we should be doing? We are in the midst of a world class fishery, the netting is stopped. There is no indication that it will resume. Rumors and innuendoes are not just cause for action!!! We can be vigilant and make sure all parties are involved.

[Guest]

KATOMAN,

Stay involved with the process, as much as possible. Pray that the new leaders choose to promote and profit off of the sportfishing instead of commercial end of the spectrum. I agree everybody has the right to have economic prosperity, I only question the means to achieve such. The crappie fishing has been unbelievable! It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to be able to profit and even enhance such a situation.
Seems it should be a relative easy choice for the long term prosperity of the Tribal community, local business, and the state.

[Guest]

Nobody would argue that any vigilent person should stay out of the public welfare system we have set up in the form of monopolized gambling. And you make a valid point that there has to be a end user for a product to have value, but that doesn't make it noble. If one was a drug dealer he shouldn't be presumed innocent even though someone may be buying from him! In the modern world we live in he would be the king pin, moreover, the source of the problem. Defend the lethal and devasting actions all you want, I too have vast heritage and family tradition, much of which I am not allowed to carry on by basis of the modern day law! Having two sets of rules will always cause problems in one united nation. Get over the misnomer that everybody wants to exterminate the native people. They have a right to thrive, survive, and prosper, but just not at the expense of the underpriveleged in this system. Don't kid yourself, having the right to operate a casino is very profitable boys, and the tax implications seem shall we say favorable. I would venture to say there might be a few other small busines owners who wouldn't mind a even economic playing field.

[swamptiger]

There is a trend these days toward regulation. Regulate this - regulate that. All of our problems can be solved through regulation. It's getting so you almost have to be a lawyer to go fishing these days. Along with more regulation comes the need for more enforcement. It's a vicious, endless circle and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

I don't support commercial fishing -although I do believe the fillets end up on many of the same tables - whether they are netted or caught by hook and line.

Right now, the lake has a healthier fish population overall than I can ever remember. All I am saying is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", as the old saying goes.

As far as making the same mistakes that were made in the past, who knows???

Time will tell, and if history does start to repeat itself, there will be people watching.

[Fish-on]

Surface Tension it's obvious by your post that you do not know your history. First of all, the US government did not try to exterminate the indians, They negotiated with them and offered them many things, they paid them stipends in cash, blankets and goods. Imagine always having to cook a hunk of buffalo on a stick and along comes a white person with a cast iron skillet! Imagine always trying to cut things with a sharp rock and along comes a white person with a sharp steel knife. It's no wonder an indian would trade his only daughter for a good rifle! It's no wonder white trappers were killed to get a knife or a few traps. The US Governement even sent people to the west to help them learn how to farm when they, along with the white hunters, nearly exterminated the buffalo and beaver. Yes the indians participated in it just as much as the white people, greed has never been only a white man's disease. As soon as the indians got the guns and traps to do so, they joined right in. Some guns they got by stealing from or killing whites, some by trading. True history of the west involved an incredible greedy pillaging of wildlife by both whites and indians. Look at the records of the thousand of buffalo skins that were bought from the blackfeet in the mid 1840's if you doubt this! There is a history of terrible things that were done to whites including women and children, things that have simply been left out of the history books in the interest of politically correctness. I bet you didn't know that the indians actually killed more whites than whites killed indians during the 1800's did you? To have the simplistic view that the mean white people came along and took "their" land is pathetically ignorant, but it's the view that prevails today because true history is not being taught. If we were willing to speak the truth and help the indians get over this victim mentality we would all be better off, especially the indians.

If you are truly interested in the history of the settling of the west, go to the writings of the people who where there, like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, Osborne Russell, Lewis and Clark, Tom Fitzpatrick, Hugh Glass, Jim Meek and others who interacted with the indians in many ways while this so-called taking of land was going on. You'll find that nothing even close to that was what happened. If you take the time to learn what it was really like, you'll be shocked to learn how wrong you are about it. I actually read on this board where someone compared the indian wars to the nazis and the Jews. How unbelievably ignorant!

Indians need to stop living in a victim mentality, and we need to stop allowing it. No more "poor poor me" let's give them opportunity and responsibility. The first step in doing that is to get over the myths that we somehow owe them something for the so called sins of our fathers. Time to stop the us versus them thought patterns.

If they want to be an independent nation, fine, cut off all government aid and set up customs ports of entry where people must pass to go in and out of their nation. They can have their own game laws and do what they like with it. No more double standards of discrimination against whites, or even whites with indian blood such as my family.

Carry on.

[Guest]

Fish-on,
Nicely put.

[Surface Tension]

FishOn Lets start here,you said
"They negotiated with them and offered them many things, they paid them stipends in cash, blankets and goods." Negotiated? WE took the land against there will and put them on a RES. In time we forced the Indians into smaller reservations on waste lands. It was our fathers intension do do away with the all Indian way of life and make them dependant on the white man. Is it any wonder we see the problems we do with the Indians. I said a long time ago blameing others and feeling your owed something wont get you anywhere.
Now we have the courts that will uphold the treaties. So live with it. There is nothing you can do,period. I dont agree with netting an spearing either but its there land and lake. Indians arent the only ones that will benifit from DNR walleye stocking.

[Fish-on]

There are at least three specific instances I can think of where the US government negotiated with the Indians, and I'm sure there are more. In two cases, the meetings were held in the west, the largest at Ft. Laramie in the mid 1850's I forget the exact year. In one case, many of the indian leaders actually went to Washington DC. In some cases, the government out and out bought the land. And this is land, please remember, that the indians couldn't even agree upon who owned it. The various tribes were constantly warring and killing over whose land was whose. The US governemnt, to them, was just like another tribe getting into the perpetual battle over the lands. The indians weren't really accustomed to negotiations in the way the whites were, and failed miserably, losing a lot in the process. The indians were used to killing someone to get what they wanted, not negotiating. Were they taken advantage of at times? You bet. But considering the landscape and the full view of history, they got off pretty well. Throughout human history, peoples have conquered other peoples. Show me another case where those doing the conqering actually allowed the conquered people to retain portions of the land, were paid in cash and gifts, and even allowed to assimilate into the society. Show me. I'm not going to judge right and wrong, but I think the proper perspective here is a recognition that the indians lucked out big time when you look at what could have happened. Cripes the whites even tried to retrain them to a farming culture, and opened up schools to teach them to read and write. The US government spent a lot of money trying to help the indians! Yes it looks ridiculous to put it that way now, but that's the way they were looking at it then.

the statement that the US government wanted to annialate the indians is bogus and there are many documents that prove otherwise. They indians COULD have been annialated had the US governement really wanted to. The fact that they weren't is proof that the US had no intentions of annialating them.

The massive effort to teach the indians to farm was misguided, and a waste of the US's money it took to haul farming equipment to the west, although it should have worked in theory, since virtually all of the land in the areas where it was attempted, is today in farmland. However, you could debate for hours why it didn't work, but the most important factor in my opinion was that the indians simply couldn't cope with a sweeping change in social and family structure it took to be farmers. Remember that the indian culture was one where men hunted and had sport, and talked and boasted endlessly about it. Women did most of the manual labor. Women in most western indian cultures were property and could be bought and sold. Farming requires the men to work the land and the indians couldn't and wouldn't adjust. Can you blame them?

I have three dozen books on my bookshelf written by eyewitnesses to the affairs of the white's interaction with the indians from the Voyage of Discovery in 1803 to the End of the fur and buffalo trade boom in the 1860's. It's fascinating reading and it is truly amazing how the facts differ from what is being taught in the schools these days. I used to laugh at how the old western movies portrayed the indians, but amazingly, it's more accurately than modern revisionist history books portray them now.

Most of the books are available on the internet. I have bought a lot of mine from Guidon. http://www.guidon.com/mtnmen.html Sorry for ranting about this, but I hate to see injustice and untruth.

[halad]

Ohh cramps

[Milkdud]

I thought this was a site for fishing reports, not a history lesson site. If you boneheads want to brush up on your history lessons go to the **** library.

[Guest]

Milkdud,

I'm sorry to hear that you don't see any relation to this subject and our fisheries. Seems to me a reasonably intelligent person would be able to put his wires together to spark that connection. Then again, when you logged on to this topic were you looking for a fishing spot? Lets see (Neting on Red) Hmmmmmm!

[Guest]

Hey MilkDud , what kind of info are you looking for?

[Surface Tension]

Spearing and netting will always be a heated topic. Thing is there isnt a court room in the country that will take away gathering rights. So its like the weather, everyone talks about but does nothing about it. In this case cant do anything about it.
I dont live near Red Lake but do live by a Res and the last thing any one wants is more Tension between Indians and whites. Seems the locals are dealing just fine with this issue and dont really need outside interference. So I will take my own advice and Button It.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 08-28-2002).]

[Fish-on]

"Spearing and netting will always be a heated topic. Thing is there isnt a court room in the country that will take away gathering rights. So its like the weather, everyone talks about but does nothing about it. In this case cant do anything about it."

That's one area where we can definitely agree.

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Hmmm, It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Native Americans got screwed here. Native Americans in the mid 1800's numbered roughly 20 million and now their population is estimated at 2 million. Who decimated whom? We introduced many diseases to these people, which killed them by the masses. We tried our hardest to make these people assimilate into whitehood. We developed special schools (if you can call them that) in which we took their children from their parents and brainwashed the hell out of them in a bording school; tried to turn them into white folk stating that this would help them be better people. When the Native American children were finally released or allowed to go back home to visit their tribes, they were neither accepted by their families nor the white man. How would this make you feel? We took away their traditions, their customs, their dignity, their life and their spirit by doing this. What we engaged in can be referred to what the Serbs called ethnic cleansing. WE TRIED TO ELIMINATE THEM, JUST LIKE THE NAZI'S AND THE JEWS. Did you know that while all this was taking place, the Smithsonian, yes the Smithsonian you're thinking of, went to the tribes and documented them and their lives because it was thought that Native Americans were soon to become extinct. We've been dumping on them ever since we came to this country and most white people nowadays are too unaware or rather too uneducated to understand and realize how poorly we've treating these people since our introduction. For all of you who are still prejudice against the Native American population, educate yourself before you open your hole. To be ignorant of the true facts and to talk about crap you've never been educated on makes us all look ignorant. Know their history before you open your mouth next time. And by the way, I'm white and disagree with certain situations that have happened between us, however, White folk tend to get ticked off when things that were never theirs to begin with are taken away from them, which is completely bewildering to me. Hmmm.

Fish On!

Stephen

[This message has been edited by Fish On! Guide Service (edited 08-28-2002).]

[Guest]

FOGS, hey cool down! With all of the "us" and "we's" your throwing out there you must be as old of the hills! You talk like you were at Little Big Horn! Alot of people got screwed through out history, infact any nation or people that were conqered by another got screwed.Believe it or not assimilation is a good thing! Look at the present day immigrants and the problem that exists because of thier unwillingness to assimilate. Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact!

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... Just stirrin the pot...

[Fish-on]

FOGS, you win the award for the most ridiculous myths and lies in one post.

[swamptiger]

Yeah, FOGS - whatdya mean "we" anyway, got a turd in your pocket?

[Guest]

O.K. then FOGS, sounds like your a stand up kind of guy. Good thing, because you might need to be with those thought processing skills. Wow!

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Myths? HAHAHA. Get a clue Fish on! If you need documentation, I can provide that. For some reason, some white people feel as if they've been getting the shaft; quit using the Native Americans as a scapegoat. If you can't see the prejudice attitudes some of you exude, wake up!! Your senseless banter is truely ignorant.
Assimilation is good? Didn't Hitler use the same common sense strategies?
The White mans history books have an extremly slanted view from which most of us were taught. If you really want to know what happened to Native Americans in their past and how they live today, why not get the information from the "horses mouth" or from texts that show the other side of the story. Take an ethnics course and find out the real deal, but don't open your hole if you haven't a clue. Its one thing to have an open mind and speak your views, yet another to be predjudice and ignorant.

Fish On!

Stephen

[Fish On! Guide Service]

http://www.ptsd.wednet.edu/district/resources/bookmarks/BHMS/bhnative.html

http://www.nativeweb.org/

Maybe, just maybe, these url's has some validity behind it.

Fish On!

Stephen

[This message has been edited by Fish On! Guide Service (edited 08-29-2002).]

[Guest]

FOGS , whats with the comparisons to Hitler and the Nazi's?? Your not a closet storm trooper are you ? Boo Hoo the evil blue eyed devil stole my land, shot my horse, and tried to ethnicly cleanse me OHH!
Get over the victim mentality and stand on your own two feet. Are native Americans so down trodden and weak that they need special laws and regs and reservations ? Hell no thier not!And dont give me the "cultural heritage" spew. Is the Native Americans culture any more important than any other? No its not. How many natives can speak thier native language? How many could build a birch bark canoe or torch? HUH how many? Not as many as alot of people think and I suppose "us" and "we" are responsible for that right? Sounds to me that assimilation has already begun!

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... Just stirrin the pot...

[This message has been edited by Bigtoes (edited 08-29-2002).]

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Bigtoes,
First off, Concentration camps = reservations in the U.S. They are both quite the same in many respects. Second, your retorts towards me show your true intellect. What a charming way to communicate. Third, if you think assimilation is good, then act like a Native American, they were here first.
Fourth, stay bitter and teach everyone else around you to do the same, its really quite appealing. Its evident you've never taken an ethnic course or studied Native Americans and its obvious compassion towards these people has never entered your mind.
Prejudism is sooooo virtuous (obviously loaded with sarcarsm). Enough said.

Fish On!

Stephen

[Fish-on]

Some of us become angry over injustice. Some, like FOGS, get angry over those of us who expose injustice. As long as you are willing to compare Nazis and Jews to the whites and Indians, it becomes very difficult to give any credibility to any of your statements. And saying "they were here first" reminds me of kids in the back seat of a station wagon arguing about who should sit where.

I have taken a college course you would consider an "ethnics" course. And I had the guts to stand before the teacher and tell her when she was wrong, and had the facts to prove it. I guarantee you that by the end of that class, she was carefully considering every statement that came out of her mouth. She, like most community college teachers, was just passing along what she'd been taught without really searching for the truth (sound familiar FOGS?). I'm certain the "A" I got in the class was the most begrudging "A" she ever gave. If it weren't for a little Cherokee blood, I probably would have never been allowed to tell what I knew. Go figure.

If you see honesty as predjudice, then so be it. I have some indian friends, by the way, and one of my best friends is black, for what it's worth. Hitler I would have had little time for.

[swamptiger]

FOGS, I think you've been fed a whole trailer load of b.s.

And, if you think the Red Lake reservation is like a concentration camp, you better come and take another look.

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Fish On,
You stated in an earlier post that what I was saying were ridiculous myths and lies. Prove it! I'm willing to be educated and if you can show me some information refuting the facts that I've stated, then do so. I eagerly await such information. Myths and lies?? Back it up! Your turn.

Fish On!

Stephen

[Fish-on]

Seems to me I put quite a bit of effort into educating you with all the information in these posts. I can't see where any more would do any good. Your mind appears to be made up.

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Just as I suspected Fish On. You can't come up with a better answer then that? I don't have a problem looking at both sides of the equation. I'm more than willing to look at any additional information and further my education,however,if you are going to call these facts lies and myths, then back it up and if you can't, then what? Open mouth and insert foot might be a good suggestion. My whole point is this. The white man have been incredibly unfair to these people and so what if they get to net fish and have casinos. SO STINKIN WHAT! What's so unfair about letting these people have a little piece of the pie? If you don't like the netting, don't support the casinos and vice versa. Some of you don't understand the priviledges you already have by being white, its just taken for granted. I, for one, don't have a problem with some of the benefits Native Americans receive. If you are to look at the big picture, tell me who is better off today, the white man or the natives? Your turn.

Fish On!

Stephen