Trophy Lake

[swamptiger]

Analyzer, you seem like an honest guy - at least you admit you wouldn't come if the fishing wasn't phenomenal. Therein, I believe, is the problem - how to keep the fishing great. I don't see it as "whining" and certainly nobody is trying to drive any business away,but some of us are concerned about keeping the lake in good shape for future enjoyment.

If you & your son caught 96 walleyes and kept 4, the mortality is actually closer to 20 fish. (assuming a 17% hooking mortality, 92 x .17 = 15.64 plus 4 fish kept is 19.64)

If the limit was upped to 4 fish, using the same math, it figures out closer to 23 fish, or roughly 23%.

I realize you & your son had an exceptionally good day of fishing, but if there are 100 boats on the lake in a day doing the same thing, that figures out to about 2000 fish. Take that times 68 days, and you have 136,000 fish. If the fish average 15", or roughly 1.25 pounds, you have 170,000 pounds. Not something to "feel guilty" about, but perhaps something to think about...

[analyzer]

I come up 4 days a year. We catch roughly 50 fish per person per day. So personally, I cnr about 200 fish a year. A local who catches 10 or 20 and goes every day, does the same thing in a couple weeks.

Johnny catches a handful of those big northerns every time out... over the course of 20 trips he has caught and released 100 northerns and 17 have died by the same math... but I don't hear the ridicule on the northerns.

I don't want to turn this into a fight... I understand the idea is to figure out how to protect the fishery.

I would be in favor of mandatory barbless hooks.

I do think a nominal fee (say $5) on certain lakes would be appropriate. It may deter some of the pressure, and at the very least pays for restocking.

In my opinion, there are too many fish in the lake and not enough food to eat. My son caught a 24" walleye and I doubt it was 4 lbs. (probably closer to 3 1/2). I've never caught a big bellied walleye on red.

A few years back they had the same issue on Mille Lacs. Everyone was having 100 fish days, and the walleyes were coming in long and skinny. Apparently the perch population took a hit (I've been told they run in 7 year cycles), and with the extreme lack of food the walleyes were feeding very aggressively.

I think if the walleyes on Red had more forage, the problem would take care of itself. It seems to me, when I anchor, the fish come to me. The longer I sit there, the hotter the action gets.

Perhaps the answer is to find ways to introduce additional food for the walleyes. They'll get fatter, and maybe a little harder to catch.

I remember coming up there 6 years ago, when the walleyes were mostly small cigars, I would consistently catch perch in shallow water. I haven't caught a perch in open water in 3 or 4 years. I've also heard the guys who trap shiners aren't as successful as they used to be.

IMO, the walleyes just don't have enough to eat. As they thin out, they will become better fed, more healthy, and more difficult to catch... the problem will sort itself out.

In the mean time, maybe the dnr could stock a few billion perch fry. I'll throw in 5 bucks. Heck, I'll throw in 50 bucks. With a $5 per day stamp, 4 of us for 4 days, would be $80 in the kitty... it would go a long way... and kids under 16 don't pay, so families dont get hit too hard.

When I go Pheasant hunting, I have a choice, stay in Minnesota where I can hunt on my small game licence, or pay an extra $100 and hunt in SD, where there are 20 times as many pheasants.... I often pay the extra $100 to have more success.

Do the same in this situation. The fisherman can fish black duck, LOW, winny, or whatever and not pay, or pay for the extra success on red. I would pay the money.

.... now that I think about it, the non resident pheasant licence in SD only covers 10 days of the season. You can split it into 2 sessions of 5 days. So perhaps you could do something like that on red. $5/week. You get a little swipe card and it gets 7 days loaded on it. You swipe it at the landing or bait store each day before you go out, and once it's gone, you have to buy another.

Maybe they could make fishing in MN that way in general. You buy a card that gives you 10 days. Each day, no matter where you're going you swipe your card. This way, those that use the resource more, pay more. The dnr could have a little reader with them, if they check you and you haven't swiped that day... you get hit with a big fine.

They use an honor system with the light rail. No one takes the tickets, you're on your honor to buy them. But they do random checks to see if you have a ticket.

I suppose I'm going overboard....

[swamptiger]

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I would be in favor of mandatory barbless hooks.

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Might be a good idea for Red. I remember Bob Lessard proposed going with barbless hooks over 20 years ago, and it was shot down. I can't remember for sure, but I think he may have been advocating barbless hooks statewide - which may have been the reason it didn't get anywhere.

You might be right about the forage situation - I know the perch population seems to be a lot lower, and I'm sure with all the larger northerns and walleye in the lake, it takes a tremendous amount of feed.

The whole thing with Red is an experiment - hopefully it will work out in the long run. There's another thread running about the size of the walleyes in Red Lake before it crashed - somebody said about 14" was average - which I think is pretty accurate. There haven't been this many large fish in Red Lake within the past 40-50 years for sure - I think most long-time residents would agree to that.

[analyzer]

I think it would be good to go statewide barbless if you're over 16... too many young kids struggle with line tension, and would get discouraged. Might save a few human eyes as well.

[LABS4ME]

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I've also heard the guys who trap shiners aren't as successful as they used to be.

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I know a shiner trapper... last year he had the best year he ever had on Red... and he's been doing it for decades!

This year sounds like it would've been fantastic too, except for the windier than average conditions...

I've caught plenty of bigger walleye that were well fed on Red... I've also caught some 'skinny' walleye. Seems the 'skinny' ones are post spawn (around the opener to 1st half of June) and the thicker ones are in the fall/winter.

I think the fish aren't relying on perch as their main forage... there is also a lot of young walleye being eaten by the older fish. and where do you think all the young crappie are going?

Good Luck!

Ken

[analyzer]

I stand corrected. Thank you labs. I suppose that makes sense (post spawn skinniness)as I am only there late may, early june. Excellent point.

[Random guy]

First off I was wrong. The latest reports/studies I had stated 17% hooking mortality with variables up and down from that. I was informed today by a very solid source that the hooking mortality as far as understood is down in the single digits. I am trying to get my hands on that report and see what was studied and how the final census looked. So for that I am sorry, build gallows and find a good rope.

Second is it does not matter how many fish make up a limit or how many inches the slot is, what matters is the ethics of anglers. When I watch fish being rough housed, thrown like shot-put, bouncing around on the floor of the boat, out of the water five to ten minutes for picture time and the infamous shake the hook until the fish falls off trick it becomes very clear where the problem lies. If the trout pond mentality continues that is what we will have, DNR puts in 10,000 walleye fry and anglers harvest or kill off 10,000 fourteen inch walleyes. Ethics have become the enemy of Upper Red lake, not the DNR or the other side.

Tomorrow’s trophy walleye was the eighteen inch fish that got the snot beat out of it today.

Today’s trophy pike? Maybe those where the little pike that anglers hated so much years ago… wait a second, we stopped fishing for pike and walleye in the shallows ten years ago when the lake was walleye free?

[Random guy]

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Johnny catches a handful of those big northerns every time out...

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Glad you think so highly of me, I have been out for three trips in four days and caught zero handfulls, not even a pinky fingers worth. It happens.

Boils back down to proper handling of these fish, I hit the lake with gear able to quickly place the fish in a cradle or fin saver net before I use one of the four needle nose or hook cutters that are ready to go in all four corners of the boat, the fish is hoisted horizontaly in front of the camera that is already aimed with the timer on. Flash bang instant memory and the fish is placed back in the water before my held breath is gone.

Today I watched a pike stuffed into a crappie net, dropped from four feet up, then stradled while on the floor to make it hold still while looking for a pair of pliers then the hooks where removed. Once the surgery was done everybody in the boat took a picture holding the fish verticaly before it was realeased in a timely eight minutes from the time it was netted to the time it was tossed from midship back into the water. AND THESE GUYS WHERE TARGETING PIKE!

Catch and release works when proper handling is employed.

[12lb8oz]

Part of the problem Johny is that the average guy doesn't know they need to get that fish in ASAP. You make your living off of that lake, you live there, you care about it as much or more than everyone out there. Until a few years ago, sure I figured I needed to get them back in the water fairly quickly but didn't ever give it much thought. Just like a mechanic is going to treat their vehicles with more care than someone who just jumps in and drives it around. I work in insurance and investments, I probably pay more attention to my ins./investments than most people would. If more people knew what taking those extra pics was doing to the fish, they'd be quicker about it and handle them with more care. Sure, some people don't give a rip but I would bet most do....they just don't know.

[swamptiger]

I don't know if it will ever be possible to put a hard and fast figure on catch & release mortality because there are just too many variables that come into play...hot weather, improper handling, gut hooks, etc., etc.

What's the C & R mortality rate on a female full of eggs caught and released late in the winter or early in the spring who dumps her eggs because she's too stressed out to go through the normal spawning process? Don't know for sure, but I would bet it probably has happened.

Bottom line is that catch and release does work, but when people are catching and releasing tens or hundreds of fish, they are probably having a much larger impact than they realize - especially if it's not done properly...

[BLACKJACK]

Interesting thread, especially since I was just up to Red last Friday-Sunday.

First the report: We had great fishing!!! Friday we anchored on the break line somewhere between the mouth of the Tamarack and Hudacs, it was hot and we were cooking in the boat, but we caught fish, lots of 17-20's, a few 10-12's, but very few eaters. Most of our fish were caught just throwing out jigs and a fathead. Our partners in another boat were also catching fish by trolling back and forth. We ended up with 6 for the fry pan (between both boats). Sat morning it had cooled off to 42 degrees, but it was even better fishing!!! My brother and I anchored in a different spot and must have caught 25 fish in a couple of hours!! Again, lots of big ones, 17-19+ and a few small ones but we also ended up with four eaters. We had fun!!

Several observations even before I read this thread:

It’s obvious that the fishing pressure is cropping off the eater fish, very few fish are in the 15-16 inch range. I can see how a local fisherman would be frustrated if they want to just go out and get a couple for supper.

People are rough when they release them; I saw way too many fish just tossed out of a boat like a piece of wood from 4 feet up.

It will be interesting to see how this fishery evolves. How long will it take for those 18-20 inch fish to become 26-28 inch fish? Will the slots be changed or the limit raised? I personally don't think they should be. If the slot gets raised to 18, then less fish will survive to that prime spawning size. If the limit is raised to say four, then it will increase the angling pressure on the fish, the meat fisherman that bypass Red now would make it a point to stop in and fish Red.

Speaking of meat fisherman, had a guy anchor close to us, he had two young kids with him. Neither kid was fishing but he made a point of throwing out a bobber pole for one of them, and the kid never touched it. He even stated that he was trying to get enough fish for a fish fry that night. It was obvious the two kids were along for the extra limits.

My thoughts on the hooking mortality are that I'm sure the DNR is taking that into account when they set the limits and slots. And as someone stated earlier, the pressure on the fish will ease up later in the summer. For a lake that size, is the mortality really that big of a factor?

All I know is that its one heck of a fishery. I'd never be able to go to a local lake and have walleye fishing like that!!!

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Well, a little update on Mortality issues. I just read a report by the MN DNR Fisheries Research Unit, that estimates C&R Walleye Mortality from Tournament fishing on Mille Lacs at 40%!

[Borch]

I would guess t would depend greatly on the time of year that the tourney was held. Mid summer brings warmer warmer temps, fish being brought up from much deeper water and longer/rougher rides back to the landing. I'm surprised it's that high as these guys handle fish carefully.

[Random guy]

Tourneys can be tough on fish. The fish is caught from who knows what depth unlike the 17' abyss of Upper Red Lake. Then they take a 70 mph ride across rough water to sit in a container full of holes and stand in line waiting to go on stage. Then they are held up for the masses to see before gettting RAN back to the release boat where they are dumped into a big tank and held until the tanks are full. Once the tanks are full out goes the release boat to dump its load of warm water and warm fish into the cold lake.

Not a good day for the fish at all depending on the current conditions during the tourney.(NOT saying all tourneys are bad so stop building the gallows)

Normal fishing pressure has much less of an impact since the fish are brought to the boat, unhooked, cussed at for being to big or to small and back into the water.

If we hit 40% on Upper Red you wouldn't need a boat, just walk on the mats of dead fish floating.

[kgpcr4]

Those few fish in the live well getting pounded in a tourney are nothing compared to the mortality of people catching 100 in a day. Just my .02 worth. there are peopel who think they are sportsmen for catching 100 eyes in a day and not keeping any when in reality they are the real game hogs. when a guy catches a few for the pan and quits that hurts the fishery a lot less. as for 40% that may be high but if its half that and i beleive thats low then out of 100 fish they killed 20. thats being a game hog to sit there and catch walleye after walleye and think its cool. all you had to do at URL this year is look at all the floaters.