Water Levels

[GRAND DAD]

I just have to chim in here. Am am not a big fan of the goverment coming in and taking somebody's property.But screw them. I can't belive that they won't do it for free just to help there neighbors. Maybe it's just me. I know nothing about the project but I know you will be pumping the water in to my lake and I hoping some fish come with it.It will at least make the creek a little deeper for the fish to spawn.I think

[archerystud]

Hey Grand Dad:

I agree that I'm not for the govt taking peoples property away but in this case it's the landowner who has lake shore that is the one holding up the project. Their property could go under water just like everyone else so they stand plenty to gain in property value by letting the project continue.

My biggest fear is that if some more places go under water (and some are within a foot of the lake now) that the project could be canceled since there will be less people to support (pay) for the project.

Gissert knows more about it than me but I would guess that North Turtle alone could raise South Turtle another 5+ vertical feet and it is still flowing into South Turtle. If we don't control the water now at some point it may just start coming down stream, uncontrolled. If my place is under water, I'll let the next guy worry about it.

[Gissert]

Grand Dad,

I don't think you'll notice a whole lot of difference when the draining starts. By the time it gets to you, it'll have spread out and the volume and velocity will be much diminished.

In the four years we did pump, the DNR never changed the stop logs on your dam outlet.

It is not like the government is taking their property. They have been offered compensation for the project to go in. Once the project is finished, the drain pipe will be buried and their property will still be there. The entire project should only take 2-3 weeks start to finish.

This drain should enhance their property value, not reduce it. Without this project, they will have a peice of property that will flood out and be nearly worthless.

[Jigging Bob]

Sounds to me like this person that is holding out is on some sort of weird power trip? It just doesn't make sense to me. Why wouldn't they agree other then the fact that they want to be a _____? I won't cuss and say the word I am thinking of on here but it rhymes with stick.

[hogrider1]

I've been watching this post for some time and wish the holdouts would take a moment and think about all the great poeple who are on the lake. Our place is on North Turtle next to the old farm and we have easily lost 10 feet of shore over the past few years not to mention the erosion that has come along with it. We've also lost some great fishing due to greed but thats a whole nother topic. I can feel your pain on South Turtle and find it disheartening that a fellow cabin owner is holding out for more $$ while jeopardizing everyone else on the lake and in my case, even those on North Turtle.

We built our place 11 years ago and have made some great friends (locals and weekenders) over the years. These people look after my place when I'm not there and I do the same for them. I would hope that the last hurdle on South Turtle could be overcome by these folks taking a moment and realizing there is a lot more at stake here than a couple extra bucks. I'd hate to have a lake place with no friends as sooner or later you will need them.

[Gissert]

You nailed it. This project will allieviate the problems on North and South Turtle.

The holdouts basically have no neighbors. Their place is in an area that has no other development. They are isoloated in more than one way.....

[Mark Christianson]

As it stands today(right now), how are the water levels?

Highest they have been in years? How is boat traffic affecting the shorelines? Is there undue erosion with wave action from boating due to the high water?

[Gissert]

Water levels are about as high as they were last year. My guess is they are at about 1322.6 or 1322.7 MSL (mean sea level) It has not been this high since the teens or 1920's. The dust bowl years really dropped it down. It was down to about 1312-1313 in 1976.

We got it down to about 1321 last year with pumping.

Ordinary high water mark is about 1318, water will flow out on its own about 1328-1330.

The outlet is going to be set at 1319.

Erosion has not been too bad, though there is some. It just depends on the topography where the more serious erosion is. People have been very mindful of their wakes for the most part - kudos to them. I checked the clarity last week and the secchi reading was 14 feet - this is very good considering all the rain and runoff. There were a lot of ice pushes this winter that gave some people some big bank humps.

TONS of water killed trees. I have lost over 20 cottonwoods, and will loose my last 2 cottonwoods this year, along with about 10 spruce trees. One ponderosa pine died, and I have lost 20 birches.

[archerystud]

Hey BLB:

Water levels on ST are as high as I've seen them in my seven years. I took a picture of a place last year and the FF Journal had a pic of the same place this year. It pretty much looks like it did last year. I almost want to say that our pumping did no good last year but obviously the water would be much higher than it is now if we hadn't pumped.

The road in front of my place is being eroded away but I wouldn't mind rebuilding it if we finally get these bozo's to open their eyes.

We had a guy out to look at our road and he said that there are many other places (farmers and residents) who would be helped out as well. I think this goes beyond just North and South Turtle, but right now we are feeling the most pain.

[hert2005]

Saw in the Daily Journal that an agreement was reached. Good News!!! Any idea on the timetable?

[Gissert]

Unless something new has happened, it is a tentative agreement. As of Friday, there was still some language in the agreement being nailed down. Hopefully it will be done today.

As far as a timetable goes, the contractor has some other work now. It will probably be a couple of weeks after they get the go ahead before they begin. They still need to order the pipe anyway.

[hert2005]

Just wanted to publicly thank Gissert and others who have spent much time and effort in spearheading this project. Without your leadership and determination, the lakeshore owners would be in big trouble.

THANKS AGAIN, and if you have a particular flavor of choice, I'd be more than happy to drop off a few bottles of your favorite as a small token of my appreciation.

[Gissert]

Thanks, nice to hear it. The county was a big help too, and deserve our thanks as well.

[kobear]

Hey Gissert,

You didn't think there was much wetland drainage? I did some GPS overlays and just on the North and West of N Turtle in the contributing watershed there is over 250 acres of wetland labeled drained. There is almost as much that has obvious ditching and who knows how many tile lines I can't see on the air photos. I've got JPEGs, if anybody wants a copy emailed to them just post your email and a requst to kobear.

One example, the 160 acre field to the north of the point on the northside of N Turtle that divides the main lake from the west arm has 26.4 acres of drained wetland and the only acres "undrained" are the ones the lake filled back in up the ditches that were originally dug to drain them. These were all type 3 wetlands meaning semipermanent holding generally 3 feet of water. Thats 79.2 acre feet of water input from one field each year that would have been retained in place. I can count about ten other quarter sections with similar figures just on the NW side, given N Turle is 1484 acres we just brought the lake up six inches each year with the extra inputs from wetland drainage and I only looked at about 40% of the contributing N Turtle watershed.

[kobear]

The most recent public ditch system in the North Turtle Area dates to 12/5/1907.

[B. Amish]

ahhhh,

someone else sees the light!

[Gissert]

You see the light, and I see water in my basement that blood sweat and tears has paid for.

My house was built in accordance with the County Land and Resource rules that are tied to an ordinary high water mark set by the DNR. So is everybody elses dwellings on North and South Turtle. We are in legally permitted properties. Maybe the high water mark should have been set higher, but that can't be helped now, can it?

Try walking a mile in our shoes, my friends, and see if you feel the same way.

You guys make it sound like we are some kind of drainage monsters. We are just trying to protect our property. For that I offer no apologies.

I take it you would rather see dozens of septic systems in the water. How about a diminished tax base due to abandoned properties. Believe me, we would MUCH rather had not done anything. As a group, we have spent 200k in pumping, and the project will cost us about 300 k more. Not exactly chump change spread out over about 100 landowners. Most of us would rather have that money in our pockets.

We were allowed to pump for a few years to keep it at arms length, but the DNR and US Fish and Wildlife DIRECTED the LID to come up with a PERMANANT soloution. Thus, that is what happened, and the county took on the project which property owners will pay for.

Give me a bleeping break......

When the drainage system gets to it lower level, South Turtle will still be 1.5 feet ABOVE, yes ABOVE, its ordinary high water level. North Turtle will be goverened by its outlet into south turtle, and will not be changed in any way. Once the water drops to the outlet of North Turtle, North will cease to flow out. Keep in mind that this level is significantly higher that the the level it was in the late 70's and into the mid 80's.

There are still going to be a lot of wetlands in the area.

[hert2005]

Great information!!

I don't think there's a question about drained wetlands contributing to the high water.

I think Gissert has made it clear that we, the 100+ landowners on S. Turtle, are simply trying to find a way to deal with the water level as quickly as possible. If we don't, we won't have homes. Restoring wetlands is definately an option and a half million dollars would certainly help, but would it be fast enough to save our homes?

I, for one, have enjoyed the information I've read on this thread and I certainly respect one's opinion.

[kobear]

Sorry Gissert didn't want you to think I was against trying to maintain a level on the Turtles. I just get fired up about drainage, ducks, water levels, farming up to the waters edge, etc. We've got a few lakes in this area that are in closed basins or haven't reached their spill point in years. I hope we don't get any pattern tilers in the area or it'll be even worse. Douglas County has pattern tile going in in the western part of the county. Pattern tile is a tile line every 50 feet over the whole field, no need to worry about wetlands or groundwater recharge then any excess goes in the pipe and to the ditch, lake, stream, recieving body as they call it. Southern Minnesota has pattern tile all over as there aren't any restrictions on it, or there wasn't. I think they changed some rules as tilers were tiling all the way around wetlands to intercept the recharge and dry them out to farm. That way there wasn't a wetland violation since they didn't tile "through" the wetland. The lake I used to live on had two creeks that fed into it from 40 acre lakes to the east on the county maps, those creeks are buried 24 inch tile lines now and the lakes are corn fields that flood out most years.

[Gissert]

No worries Kobear

I am not a fan of tiling at all. My inlaws farm over 600 acres and you will not find one drain tile. We just don't believe in it. This project is going to have some fairly strict inlet and outlet controls. In addition, we prbably had to add over 1000 feet of drainage line to avoid transitioning some Fish and Wildlife impoundment easements on private land. (Not cheap to do, lol)

It is probably the best compromise for a really terrible situation. South will still be well above its high water mark, but I am glad for that. With the high levels has come more hardstem bullrush and cattails. Thus, the water has never been clearer. My secchi is running 16-17 feet through this hot weather, and is in the low to mid 20's in the spring, and after fall turnover.

North will be governed by its outlet culvert, and that still leaves a lot of meandered wetlands cranking out ducks.

IMO, I believe the local area could have high water for a while yet due to a really high water table. There are springs pushing on high ground where I hunt deer that were never there when I was a kid. Despite this dry weather, most of the potholes still have a lot of water (and ducks!) in them too.