proposed legislation

[ccarlson]

Daddyducker,

Wow! I can't believe some of the things that you stated in that post that are just misleading or false.

Gorrilla already pointed out the freshwater shrimp as minnow food problem.

I'll point to the statement about how freeze outs will keep everything ok. The problem is that when ponds freeze out, the least susceptible fish are the bullheads and the fathead minnows. Very difficult to freeze out.

Please stop with the scare tactics that people will have no bait or will pay $30 for crappie minnows. Seriously, that is just not true. There may be more limited means by which bait can be obtained and the price may be affected to a point but your numbers and complete lack of bait availability statements just aren't true.

You seriously want us to believe that bait suppliers have not spread minnows over the many years? Perhaps before they even knew there could be a problem with that?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the spread of fatheads by means of farming drain tiles increasing the levels of the shallow ponds in farm country and creating travel ways for the minnows to spread from one pond to the next. The higher water levels also decrease the chances that the freeze out will be strong enough to take out minnows.

ccarlson

[fish500]

What about the effects on harvesting leeches which I believe are defined as minnows in regards to these bills? Also, I personally don't know of any bait dealers who stock fathead minnows. I think they are native in most ponds.

If my understanding of these bills is correct, it is not an overreaction to think bait could become very very expensive (if available at all) as a result of them.

By the way, if minnows are bad for ducks, then aren't bait dealers helping ducks by removing minnows? Maybe people concerned about ducks should put their efforts into trapping minnows from the ponds. At the same time they could benefit from the resource by selling or utilizing them for bait.

[gorrilla]

Fish500, first of all of course you are entitled to your opinion, but my opinion is that your very, very offbase on your assumptions.

Fatheads have been transplanted into ponds that are landlocked simply because they are very fertile and perfect "FREE" public rearing ponds (at the expense of inverts and therefore ducks).

Bait dealers aren't evil or bad guys, but something should be done to remedy this states total conversion to primarily deep minnow holding ponds. There are PLENTY of privately owned bait ponds already. Its just cheaper to not have to own them so naturally if its allowed it will be taken advantage of.

Thats why we have Wildlife Managers, lets let them do their jobs.

[daddyducker]

First off, I would like to say again that I am sorry. I know that sometimes I step on toes, but I do from time to time get amped up.

I have personally worked this industry, therefore I feel people speak there mind in a bias way.

As far as ducks go, they don't feed strictly, or mostly on shrimp. That is a part of there diet, but they eat everything from snails to peanuts.

I guess also I was unaware that fatheads had such an effect on shrimp, but do you think that the evolution of a body of water has nothing to do with the problem.

In the 50's/60's there used to be wild minnows, (and alot more ducks). One could trap to his hearts content and hardly work for them, but now you have to bust your but and rely on skill to do the same thing.

Yes, with that in mind now days most everything has probablly been planted, but don't think that mother nature has not had a figure in it.

This bill is making it tougher on bait dealers, but do you think that it will effect the DNR much. My money says NO.

There are too many people out there that don't want to see there walleye fishing go out the window.

I am more of a duck hunter than a fisherman, so by all means I would rather see the ducks around than the fish/minnows, but there are way more contributing factors here than adaquet ponds.

Over time flyways change, water changes, land changes, and I don't think that the lack of shrimp, and the abundance of fatheads in the problem.

I all around agree that things could change, but nobody so far has devised a method to rectify the dwindling duck population. I don't know that anyone really knows the cause.

I would also like to add something else about the bill at hand.

Another part of this which will affect you and me more than it will bait trappers is the idea of closing road right of ways. You will no longer be able to fish from below a bridge, no longer be able to hunt from a ditch, you won't even be able to put your canoe in a river, unless you use some sort of access that has been deamed a public landing.

Also I am curious as to the bait dealers you are referring to <Gorilla>. Just wonder if I know them as well.

[daddyducker]

Have any of you ever held a freshwater shrimp in your hand?

Tell me, at what stage of the shrimps life is it getting eaten by fatheads?

Surely not when they are adults.

[fish500]

Is it currently legal to transplant a minnow like a fathead into another pond? If it is not currently legal, then I think these bills have another purpose in mind. If it is something that raisers have to obtain a permit for, how many permits have been issued in the past?

As far as being native, I don't doubt that many have been planted illegally in the past (laws don't stop people who don't care), but what I am trying to get at is that there are many many ponds that they are native to. Many ponds that are landlocked now, were not always landlocked, so I don't think that rules them out as native waters. People I've talked to say that most of the fatheads in northcentral minnesota are probably native. They have coexisted with the ducks long before we were around.

Also, where are the privately owned bait ponds that will not be affected by this legislation? How much bait do these particular ponds produce? Based on what I know, they don't produce much. Public waters are cheaper to use than manmade ponds. That is the point. Bait will become very expensive.

Another question is whether or not the DNR plans to stop raising walleyes in natural ponds. I don't know if fatheads eat freshwater shrimp (scud), but I will guarantee you walleyes love them. If I'm not mistaken, all walleyes are raised in natural ponds. It appears the DNR is not setting a good example (if some of the comments made are correct).

[daddyducker]

Fish500, I am glad to see that someone is thinking along my train of thought for a change.

I don't think there are currently any laws restricting bait dealers from stocking ponds, except for maybe in public lakes and I don't know if there are any laws restricting the public from stocking ponds.

I agree with your land locked theory, it makes perfect sense. Also, crappie and fathead minnows are native, maybe introduced by man, but in most ponds they have been introduced by mother nature, and one would be suprised to know how fast given the right conditions they can repopulate themselves.

There are not too many private ponds out there. Not enough bait would be produced for even a portion of the state if that's all we had. I would say that better than 75% of the state's bait comes from these little farm ponds etc.

I was mocked earlier when I said that you may pay $30 for a scoop of crappie bait, but I have been around the biz long enough to know the hit this industry would take if that bill goes through...laugh if you guys want, but I'll be on the other end to tell you "I told you so!".

Those bait trappers make good money, true. But it takes a good bit of overhead to get going.

The traps the trucks, tanks, oxygen, leases on the ponds, and all the licenses to name just a few.

Every year, just to get started in the spring, you can plan on paying $2500.00 just for a bait dealer's license.

That is the only restriction on the number of permits they will issue, then of course you must qualify in terms of all the courses you must take.

The cost of the game keeps the number of players down.

[gorrilla]

daddyducker, I'll try my best not to get amped up as well...

You guys are just throwing darts and spitting your opinion(right or wrong). Yes I've held an adult shrimp in my hand, I've put them on my tiny number 12 hook for years. And yes they are small enough at various times in their life cyle to be eaten by a fathead minnow. I've read the scientific studies and heard the biological experts in the field. Sometimes I wonder where your facts are coming from.

Do I know everything? Absolutely not. Thats why I'm continually asking questions to people in the know and people in the field.

If your doubting whether I know any bait dealers, don't. I won't post their names on here. But my college roomate grew up in the business and runs one now in central MN and the other one is a dealer/distributer of several generations in NW MN. The both utilize private ponds already and work very hard at their trade.

In a perfect world, people would obey the laws (and there are pemits needed to stock any body of water - including private).

Just call Roy Johanis (651)242-7050 with the MN DNR in St. Paul he'll answer your questions on stocking better than anyone on this site.

I believe that the possible legistation has a lot of biased people spreading tons of exagerations and lies around in many bait shop flyers around the state. I don't see how it would deny publically owned access(roadsides,etc).

Its just easier to monitor a guy commercially catching bait off public water without a permit than it is to say its illegal to dump a pailful/truckful of minnows into a slough at night that bumps up to the road. Think about it, it has to be enforceable or its never going to work. If anyone can trap minnows on public water without specialized permits for that water, than you'll never stop transplanting of minnows.

[fish500]

I'll have to check the laws, but I'm almost certain that it is already illegal to move any fish from pond to pond whether you're a licensed bait dealer or not.

There is a seperate bill that will allow local governments to close access to waters that only have public access via road right of ways. It is touted as a public safety issue. This will affect recreational and commercial users alike. It will allow the local governments to completely close access to lakes and rivers that are currently open to the public all in the name of public safety. This brings to mind a famous quote..... Can anybody guess which one?

I guess I'm one of those people who raises lots of questions when my rights are being taken away.

[gorrilla]

Fish500, for the record...

I'm in favor of more closely regulating/permitting public water commercial bait trapping, not restricting public access. Those to me are two totally seperate topics.

[daddyducker]

Gorrilla,

I am not at all doubting your intelligence, or if you know any bait dealers. I was just wondering who they were, that's all. But, I understand if you don't want to spread their name around the net.

I have heard talk of the road right of way bit, not the same thing as the bait thing however, it will effect bait trappers to some extent...the public more so.

? How is it explained a safety issue?

As far as people stocking public water, I don't understand.

Are you referring to waters around 20 acres.

When I think of this, I think of lakes like Gull, or Round.

Nobody with half a brain would stock these lakes think that they would be able to get anything back out.

I know they catch native shiners, but I've never seen a fathead come out of them.

One last thing to put in everyones head;

In the past year, how many times have you come to the end of a day of fishing and had a hand full of minnows left?

You know you won't be out again for a week or so.

What do most people do with them?

[gorrilla]

dump them on shore or in a garbage I hope. I'm not really thinking its possible to control true fishing lakes, but rather seasonal fishless waters that tend to have tons on freshwater invertebraes since they ARE LACKING FISH PREDATORS.

[crappeyeslayer]

Dump them on the ice and let them freeze! An underwater ecosystem is very fragile...

[EYES101]

First of all, I do enjoy these debates. Emotional, but friendly.

Second, none of us can really say who or whats at fault for the decline of ducks, but I do think part of the problem is minnows in small ponds/lakes. How they got there? Who knows? Some might have been planted, some I'm sure are natural. There are more factors to why minnows are in ponds where they were not before. Some used to dry up completely every few years. That doesn't usually happen much anymore. The small ones yes they definetley do. Another is they don't freeze out hard anymore either. Call it "Global Warming" if you wish, but we have had some warmer then average Falls and Winters for quite a few years.

Back to the topic, I find it hard to believe that there won't be enough minnow production to supply the current fishing industry, even with more regulation. Every year there are more and more hoops to jump through for every aspect of the outdoors. Some I agree with and some I certianly don't but I don't always know how it affects other people. When lead shot was banned for duck hunting some people thought they wouldn't be able to afford to go anymore because steel shot cost so much more. Lead is in process of being banned for fishing in most places. The price of buying lead substitute jigs is higher then buying lead jigs. In December of 2001 you paid a dollar for a gallon of gas now its is around $2.60 or more. I don't see people that quit duck hunting because of the price of shot or quit walleye fishing because of the cost of a jig and people drive just as much if not more then before. If the prices of minnows rise I think it will only be so someone can pad there wallet a little more. If minnow prices do go up, which its probably over do, people aren't going to quit fishing. Bait suppliers will still sell minnows and they can still get them from the same place they did before the law is just making it more difficult.

In the end, that is just my take on it.