Pheasant limits

[grab the net]

If we ever get back to a normal Minnesota fall/early winter where we have a foot or better of snow by mid-november. My prediction is you will not see the larger than normal numbers of late season hunters as we have the past couple of years. Not a lot of hunters have the fortitude to battle a hundred yard walk through knee deep snow to hit the cattails, then fight their way through lodged cats, getting wet, falling through, etc.. The last few years the walking has been as easy the last week as it was the first, probably easier since the sloughs are frozen. I also sense a recurring attitude that somebody else (the early season hunter/casual/only hunts the 1st couple of weekends) may get more birds than they are entitled to -vs- the hunt every weekend/has a dog/die hard. If the weather pattern holds up, mild winters, dry springs, good nesting conditions, there will be enough birds for all of us. I am also a firm believer that a late season rooster off of public land, is worth three maybe four early season birds, much more satisfying, for me anyway.

If this weather keeps up, it all may be a moot point anyway.

[Deitz Dittrich]

Rooster Chaser-

as a teacher, I thank you for the well written post. Very well stated!

[lawdog]

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How many of the folks that were driving around killing all of your roosters during MEA weekend were parents who took advantage of the break and took some personal time to spend with their kid hunting for a period of time longer than a weekend? If a parent has a chance to take advantage of that why wouldn't they? It gives them a chance to hunt with a little less pressure than the weekends, and it is a time for the parent to teach their kid how to hunt the right way. Do you begrudge them for that?

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Actually if you bother to actually read either post I said both that the kids (and yes some of their parents I presume take vacation days to coincide with your scheduled days off) are out on MEA too, and also that I don't begrudge you guys your time. I merely said a lot of birds get killed that weekend and it would be a lot more with a 3 bird limit

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[ccarlson]

Lawdog,

The number of pheasant hunters that weekend is also astronomically high because it is one of the best weekends to get out hunting for everyone regardless of your occupation. Lots of people take extra days off around that week because it's great hunting and usually great weather.

As far as the pity party that you talk about, I think you are sensationalizing the topic. I don't see any teacher asking for any kind of pity that you mention. Joel stood up for teachers and looking at his profile, I don't even believe he is a teacher. Rooster Chaser just had some good comments but didn't seek any pity that I see.

I think people that complain about other peoples jobs, or look down upon other peoples jobs, do so because they are not happy with their own career. I say if someone is unhappy about your job, do something about it. Do what it takes to change it rather than being unhappy and attacking other people's careers.

From what I have experienced, people that complain about teachers either assume all teachers are liberal democrats or they make less money and see teachers as overpaid. Usually people that make more money than teachers don't make negative comments about teaching as a career. If anything, they think "why would someone get all that education and then settle for a job that only makes that much money." Teachers know it is about more than making a decent income which goes against your pity comment.

Teaching is a great, rewarding job. The best part is that anybody can do it with the right skills and education. Colleges are accepting applications any time.

ccarlson

[Deitz Dittrich]

Lawdog, I dont need a pitty party... I didn't ask for one. I love my job! Love the time off! Love the time on! But, I am not to blame for any shortage or not of birds, as I have never shot one in my life.

Now bass?... I catch a ton of them on my time off during the summer months!

[Rooster Chaser]

Hunting those late season roosters is what I live for, and there is nothing better than flushing them out of the cattails. The past couple of years have been frustrating because there have not been a whole lot of opportunities to hunt the birds in the snow, but I did get a couple of good hunts in right after some snow. The first was down in Iowa after we got snow in November, the birds held, the dogs pointed, we took eight birds in an hour. The other was the last day of the season up here. I must have flushed 30 hens out of just a couple of cattail patches, and the two roosters that did get up flew away unscathed. Both hunts are memorable, and it had little to do with how many birds I took. It had everything to do with following my dog, hitting spots that looked choice, and having the still of the day shattered by a bird flushing with my dog on its tail. I did not run in to a single soul either day.

The biggest threat that I see to our string of good years is the discontinuation of CRP enrollments for the next two years in the new agriculture budget. I am not too worried about this snow we have been getting, but I would be more worried if we start to lose the habitat that we have now. If you get a chance go to PF's website and follow the link that allows you to contact your legislator and express to them the importance of the CRP program.

Lawdog, I was not looking for a pity party, just asking you to quit stereotyping people based on their profession.

[grab the net]

I thought this thread was about pheasant limits possibly going from 2 to 3. We all think our jobs are more important or we work harder than the next guy from time to time. Lets get off the soap box boys, besides you all know I have the toughest job in the world. I missed the glenwood meeting, the next closest to me will be Little Falls, March 8th, at the Court House. The legislaitve mandate just means the lelgislaure told the DNR to explore the issue, that is what they are doing with these meetings. The meetings are listed in the O.News this weeks edition.

[cw642]

It is kind of funny the way this is going. It seems as though most are against the raising of the limits. Has anyone looked outside? This is the first time since 1999 we have had snow falls of over 10". Then we get 2 large snows in less than a week. As many have pointed out, we have been very lucky to have such great hunting the last few years. As the fencelines and cattails fill birds will strugle to find food. As a result fewer will survive. Put that together with a wet spring, and a low hatch. Next falls head lines may read some thing like this. "After years of near record pheasant harvest, season outlook is bleak at best." I hope this is not the case but it could be. I have to question why is it never enough for MN hunters. We are fortunate to have a lot of hunting availiable. Many throughout the southern parts of the US are in a drought and their populations are unhuntable, Yet here in MN we just want more, more, more.

[harvey lee]

Getting back to the original question at hand, I would vote for a three bird limit. One rooster can take care of many hens so I see no problem with allowing a 3 limit day. For many hunters that really wouldnt amount to many more birds shot. I realize that storms and wet springs can raise havoc with the populations.

If we could get back to the old farming practices and also have more set aside and a few other programs then it really wouldnt matter.

We need cover and nesting for the birds. I had a uncle that farmed by Herman, Mn. and in the sixties they had a great bird population. Then there was a bad winter and the birds were all but wiped out. I do believe that a year later the DNR closed the season and it still didnt make any difference. The hunting pressure is one thing but Mother nature can do more harm.

[gspman]

I'm for 2 birds. One day we'll have a real winter and one day we won't have as much good cover. Right now we have a lot of birds living in marginal cover. I've seen numbers of birds in spots the last 2 years where I've never seen them in my entire life. Those birds will cease to exist after a real winter.

If this cellulose based ethanol thing takes off we'll be losing a lot, if not all of the crp ground. We'll be back to where we were 10-15 years ago. Basically very little decent cover. Even as things stand right now we still don't harvest anywhere near as many birds as SoDak and Iowa usually do.

The reason we have the hunting we have had the last several years is insanely mild winters, decent springs and some decent core cover. Take one or two of those away and we're back to the old days which frankly wasn't that good.

Also just because a rooster is capable of breeding 12 hens doesn't mean it will. Having a few "surplus" cock pheasants around will help ensure that all available hens are bred.

I would, however, support a longer season. Keep the limit at 2 and let us hunt them until Jan 15 or Jan 31.

If it ends up that it has to be a 3 bird limit then I would support the idea of having a 2 bird limit the first few weeks of the season and then upping it to 3.

For me there is nothing compelling to push the limit to 3 birds. We have been lucky the past few years and are at a pheasant population peak right now. People forget what it used to be like and are expecting this good fortune we are having to last forever. I don't think it will.

I think a little restraint and caution should be exercised and we should stay at 2 birds.

[Deitz Dittrich]

your right.. sorry I got off topic.. I am one whos opinion on this is probably not well informed. As I am not a phesant hunter. But I would think the only reason to raise the limmit would be an overpopulation of birds. Since I have not heard talk of that. I think a 2 bird limmit is fine and should not be raised to 3.

[lawdog]

There aren't going to be squat for birds left after this storm is done down here anyway. This is an absolute killer storm, as bad as any we've had since '97, the 2-3 days of constant blizzard conditions will bury and sufficate many birds. Raising the limit to three at any time now is just going to be utter nonsense.

[harvey lee]

Agreed Jeff. This storm will devestate the bird population. The ones that didnt die in the storm will have a very hard time finding food under all the snow.

[grab the net]

Hey Lawdog, I have not heard back from buddies down in the Marshall, Ivanhoe area, but having grown up in that area, I can imagine the drifting. Does it look as bad as I think it probably is ? If it does, your right, they should probably think about shrinking the limit to 1 or issue leg tags, 5 for the season.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Deitz, you know we can absolutely change that!!!! Come on down sometime and we'll go shoot some ringnecks.

Like dog and Harv said, after this storm there won't be near as many birds left, however. This is mother natures way of evening the score and we shouldn't mess with it. 2 birdies has worked well for years, why fix what isn't broken??

[Gadgetman]

keep it at 2. nuff said

[Deitz Dittrich]

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Deitz, you know we can absolutely change that!!!! Come on down sometime and we'll go shoot some ringnecks.

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Thanks for the invite Boiler... Can I come down during MEA weekend?...

Ok.. I hope everybody knows that was a joke...

Boiler, I may take you up on your offer some day.

[lawdog]

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Hey Lawdog, I have not heard back from buddies down in the Marshall, Ivanhoe area, but having grown up in that area, I can imagine the drifting. Does it look as bad as I think it probably is ?

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I would say worse. Honestly I can't even come close to cutting through this with my skid loader. There is so much snow that I have no place left to pile it and I have 3' across most of the driveway again after the night. Oh and the wind is still blowing about 25 mph and this is day three. Its ugly.

[harvey lee]

This will be very hard on all the wildlife until the snow coves melts. Been a long time since this has happened.

[riverrat56]

I guess I don't see why this is even being considered by the DNR obviously almost everyone is against the raised limit. I really don't think it will happen anyways, since when does the MN DNR get more liberal in their limits, seasons, or laws?

No one hunts for survivial anymore, just the 23 odd bucks a licenses and stamp costs could buy about 4 or 5 chickens and some taters to go with it.

Like said before there may be no negetive biological effect of raising it but there is there a positive for it?

Also I don't know how having more Roosters around at the end of the season doesn't lead to more around next season. I mean if that bird is in my freezer it deffinatly wont be around next year but if it isn't there is more of a chance. I guess I don't know how that statement makes sence at all really that you can't carry roosters over. How many times, even opening day, do you flush roosters and hen in a 1:1 ratio? For me its more like 2:1 early in the year and some days in December it seems like 100:1. It would stand to reason that is because more hens survived the winter before.

I don't disaggree that the life expectancy is around 9 months, but how much of that average is brought down by chick mortalitly and hunting? If the survial rate was looked at from birds that are say 6 months old till they are 1.5 years old would it be higher and if hunting wasnt a factor would it be higher still?

So really what I'm trying to say is leave it at 2.

An aside, one thing I have noticed is that the increased number of birds has deffinatly brought out more hunters, the private land I got on this year was amazing compared to past years, but the public was average at best. A 3 bird limit would have really shot up the public land more than it was already. Late season was tough because of 2 things, lack of snow meant we were hunting smart birds in all there cover not just the thick stuff and lots of hunters never hung it up this year because it wasn't as tough as normal.

[koonie]

If I'm not mistaken I think the legislature asked the Dnr to look in to raising the limit.

They need to stick with government and politics and stay out of the Dnr's area of "expertise". It's just one more thing they'll try to screw up.

[gorrilla]

Does anybody believe in Biology anymore???????

When its been proven biologically that decreasing our state duck bag limit from six to four will not increase surviving populations by a negligible number... What happens??? we do it anyway and break our arms patting ourselves on the back...

When biologist have said for years increasing the pheasant bag by one won't hurt spring hatches by any amount.... What do "we" do???? Biyatch and moan about the possibility of a few less roosters left in December. Duh???

Face it guys, you can't stock pile roosters, or ducks. If a drought doesn't kill the ducks, an ice storm will kill the roosters.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT CAN BE STOCKPILED THOUGH????? HABITAT!!!

habitat allows game birds to bounce back much quicker, just look at South Dakota...

I CAN'T BELIEVE SPORTSMAN AND POLITICIANS CAN SPEND THIS MUCH TIME AND ENERGY DEBATING MINOR CHANGES IN BAG LIMITS WHEN THE REAL PROBLEM IS DWINDLING CRP, CHANGES IN NORTHERN MN FORESTRY, AND PRIVATIZATION OF MN LAND WITH NO GOOD WILDLIFE INCENTIVES/PROGRAMS AVAILABLE.

I'D LIKE TO SEE THIS MUCH GRIPING GO INTO DEDICATED FUNDING EFFORTS. I DON'T SEE ARTS PEOPLE FIGHTING FOR THIS MONEY EITHER, SO WHY ARE WE SO WILLING TO SETTLE FOR A PORTION OF IT AND LET THESE SPONGES RIDE OUR COATTAILS FOR THERE CUT. EXPLAIN THAT TO ME LIBERALS???? WE CAN SURVIVE WITH PRIVATELY DONATED MUSEUMS AND CONCERT HALLS, BUT WITHOUT PUBLIC MONEY, THE WATER, AIR, AND LAND KEEPS GETTING MORE POLLUTED EXPONENTIALLY!!!!

THERE ARE SOME MIXED UP PRIORITIES OUT THERE...

rant over, sorry about the side track, I just hate politics over biology, always have...

[BLACKJACK]

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rant over, sorry about the side track, I just hate politics over biology, always have...

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The debate wasn't about biology, if you read thru the posts hardly anyone said a three bird limit would wipe out the population. The concern expressed by most was that more birds would get shot early in the season, MEA weekend included , meaning less roosters left for the late season hunting.

I also read in the Outdoor News where the legislature 'asked' the DNR to look into raising the limits. What that tells me is that 1 or 2 hunters whined to a legislative person, who whined to the DNR. Why don't they tell us which legislative person it was and why, as in how many hunters whined about raising the limits!!!

[Eric Wettschreck]

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Can I come down during MEA weekend?...

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Good one!!! Tell ya what, you come down during MEA weekend and I'll tell my teenage boys a teacher is on his way to "Spend quality time." That'll get em shakin for a while.

Humor aside, this last blizzard did some serious damage. Like i said before it's mother natures way of evening things out.

[riverrat56]

I wouldn't call a 50% increase a minor limit increase, that would put the walleye limit at 9.

Also I don't really care about the biology of it, it just doesn't make sence that shooting more roosters will have no impact on the ones around next year. It just can't, think of it this way, theres less roosters around because of a higher limit, there is no winter mortality, whats the outcome, less roosters next fall. Or there is a big ice storm, there is less roosters to begin with, so say 75% would be wiped out either way, if you started with 200 there is now 50 but if you started with 100 now there is only 25. Having less roosters at the end of the season has to mean less in the spring and less old birds next fall. Maybe all the hens will be bred anyways and there will be the same number of juvinile birds but not as many old long spurs.

Leave it at 2

[gorrilla]

Bjack, I did read the posts.

My main point to the whole thing is similar to what your stating, in that lets base the majority of our desicions on what the biologist have to say, not the legislators. They are the ones we pay money to for getting an education in their field, not politicians.

As far as the biology and research goes, its been shown that when times get tough the bigger stronger roosters will outcompete and act territorial at food sources during rough winter weather. This in turn adds stress to the hens which reduces their survival rates.

As any wildlife manager or sharp hunter will tell you, the way pheasant populations grow or repopulate ISN'T from carry-over roosters, its from good hatches resulting from good habitat and healthy hens(with a minimum of 1 rooster for every 12-15 hens).

To look at the benefit statistically:

-carrying over 50 roosers = 50 fall roosters

-having 50 healthy hens pulling off a 20% success rate on broods of 8-14 chicks = 80-140 pheasant chicks(40-70 roosters)

As you can see with these numbers, replacement is very possible with good habitat and good weather. The limit on roosters won't effect brood success in a negative way.

Realistically guys that normally get their two birds don't always have the opportunity to get three either.

[tealitup]

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An aside, one thing I have noticed is that the increased number of birds has deffinatly brought out more hunters, the private land I got on this year was amazing compared to past years, but the public was average at best. A 3 bird limit would have really shot up the public land more than it was already. Late season was tough because of 2 things, lack of snow meant we were hunting smart birds in all there cover not just the thick stuff and lots of hunters never hung it up this year because it wasn't as tough as normal.

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How do you know this? What would happen in the DNR received more money in licenses?

[riverrat56]

I guess I have to agree with what gorilla says, spring reproduction is the most important factor to fall numbers, I was just trying to find the reasoning of why there would be more birds around in the spring if we shot more in the fall.

The reasoning of roosters out competing hens does make sence thought.

tealitup, well that was something I have noticed, and the lack of snowfall, well thats a fact, and hunting late season birds when they can be any where and aren't confined to small areas is tougher than hunting them when all the cover is knocked down by snow. And I raelly don't feel they would make more money by increasing the limit, even at 3 birds, who is going to travel to Minnesota to hunt roosters because you can shoot 3 not 2? Also not many residents will pick up the sport because they can not get 1 more bird. Starting out its hard enough to get 1 let alone 3.

Whoever said stockpiling habitat is correct, thats what we need, good nesting cover, good winter cover and access to food.