steel vs lead

[tealitup]

Except Bob, what about other animals on the food chain who eat dead ducks. Bear, wolves, fox, coyote, bald eagles and other birds. They ingested these lead infested ducks and were also affected.

[gspman]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, (Contact Us Please) lies, and statistics. - Benjamin Disraeli

[Jackpine Rob]

Didja know that 74.3 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot?

[Fish Boogers]

Page 43, Hunting and Trapping Regulations

Use of Lead Shot

- No person may take ducks, geese, mergansers, coots, or moorhens (gallinules) with lead shot or while having lead shot in possission.

- Lead shot MAY be used statewide for hunting other small game in accordance with firearms restrictions in this booklet, EXCEPT in Federal Lands: National Wildlife Refuges(NRW's) and Waterfowl Production Areas (WPA's). Also 8 restricted WMA's.

The following Wildlife Management Areas will have posted dove hunting fields (No Lead): Red Buffalo WMA, Lac Qui Parle WMA, Coteau Pit WMA, Hole-in-the-Mountain WMA, Two Rivers WMA, Tiedemann WMA, Whitewater WMA, and Carlos Avery WMA

[BobT]

Don't know. What I was trying to point out is how sdstatekid left out an important piece of the document that slanted the data in his favor. Whether intentional or not I don't know but it was left out nonetheless.

Personally, despite the document, I'm not all that convinced that using steel shot has made much difference because the same tactic could have been used to create the document in question. That's why I pointed out that I don't want to argue an opposing view.

Similar to your question, tealitup, I've asked the same in an earlier post regarding us. How many humans have died or become ill due to lead poisoning while consuming game taken using lead shot or bullets?

Bob

[tealitup]

Good point - but I think we are a little bigger then an eagle; and are whole diet does not consist of animals that may have lead in them.

I mean we all know lead is poison right?? We all know the dangers of our children eating lead paint. Why then would we not show consideration to the beings we harvest or at least those we wound.

[sdstatekid]

I guess the next time i post a link that i think will help my position i should read the whole article. i did not intentionally leave out the part about the percent of birds that were wounded when you could use lead shot. I never read that part of the article. If i would have seen that i probably wouldn't have posted the link. Now that you have pointed that out to me I don't have any problems with why they make us use steel shot if those statistics are close to being correct. I still wonder though how many birds that i unintentionally wound now while using steel shot would have been in the bag instead of in the weeds a couple houndred yards away. I'm sure most of you have seen it before. they glide for a ways and then tumble. No it isn't because i am skyblasting either. I have the wonderful opportunity to hunt in south dakota whenever i want, i will not shoot ducks unless they are feet down in the decoys because most days i will get my limit being picky about the birds i shoot at and the shots I am taking. I wish i could afford the non toxics that have a density similar to lead but being a college kid the best i can afford is federal premium, which in fact has helped a little bit. I was shooting winchester xperts, maybe that was my problem, i don't know. I just hate seeing ducks or pheasants buckling from the shot then regaining themselves and gliding a few hundred yards before dropping.

[BobT]

Here's the way I look at it. If the result is more or less a wash either way, I'd rather use the lead and put more on my plate than a scavenger's plate.

Bob

[Blaze]

Amen, Bob. I used to always think any public land meant non-tox shot, and lead was only an option on private land. Glad I got that one cleared up! My kill percentages have always been far better with lead than steel. I think they should include dog biscuits with each box of steel shot to help keep the energy levels up for the dog that's you'll need to retrieve your birds! Just kidding.

[almostthere!]

Quote:

---

Here's the way I look at it. If the result is more or less a wash either way, I'd rather use the lead and put more on my plate than a scavenger's plate.

Bob

---

To each his own. Lead is a poison. Remember the kid who swallowed the lead charm from Nike? He died. That is how much lead is needed to kill a child. If you use OOO-buck shot and a child swallowed that buck shot, the child will most likely die; it not, the child will be very retarded.

Lead is actually a stew sweetener. The ancient Greeks use to drop lead balls into their stews and soups to sweeten them up. Then you have the rich Roman ladies using lead for their make-ups. Fertility among the nobles went down and doodooes like Nero were born to rule the empire.

[BobT]

I wonder. Where does the lead come from in the first place and where does it end up when discharged from a shot shell or rifle?

Bob

[almostthere!]

Lead comes from mother earth but mother earth do not roll them into beautiful little bite-size pebbles. When the lead falls on mother earth, the stay on mother earth, out in the open. Lead must not be all that bad, since the armed forces use them regularly: they are looking into non-toxic loads because they spent millions purging lead from their shooting ranges.

Uranium is also from mother earth, but do we leave them lying around, once we've mined them, for the masses.

[BobT]

There are many poisonous plants around that are on the surface of mother earth that can be easily ingested. We could argue this all day but I just have a difficult time thinking that there are that many pellets lying on the surface. Try to pick a spot, even a well hunted area, and see how many lead shot pellets you can find lying on the ground among the rest of the grains of sand.

I have to admit that it does seem a bit far fetched but then, supposedly there is evidence of lead poisoning of loons and other water fowl. Imagine how easy it would be to find a lead pellet among the bottom silt in a duck pond. It's not like they are laying on top of a smooth solid table easily picked up. They are imbedded in silt, mud, decaying plant matter, rocks, gravel, and sand.

Bob

[Eric Wettschreck]

Bob I've always wondered about that myself. I don't know if it dissolves quickly and maybe that's how some of the poisening happens???

I've also seen more cripples from steel then from lead. That makes me wonder if steel really is the answer. However, I'm not in charge of making any decisions what so ever so if I can't use lead everywhere I won't use lead anywhere. It's just easier for me.

[BobT]

That makes sense. For me, I'm down to my last box of lead shot and I'm considering making the switch to all steel mostly because I'm not a very good wing shooter anyway and I think switching back and forth from lead to steel probably isn't the best idea. It seems that with the difference in shot velocity between lead and steel my timing could be thrown for a loop and that can't be helping me improve my kill percentage. I'm thinking I'm probably not good enough to adjust.

Bob

[BLACKJACK]

Bob I just got back from SoDak, all I used was 2 3/4 two shot steel and I shot a LOT of pheasants!!! Yes I could use lead, yes it might be cheaper (but not much), but I don't want to screw up my swing and lead. Steel will kill if you take good shots, less than 35 yards. Yes lead might reach out a little farther, but how many cripples are those 'long shot lead' guys leaving? You know, the ones where the leg is hanging but the bird keeps on flying?

[CodyDawg]

I am back now guys. I had to go out and shoot a bunch of birds last week....thankfully with lead shot. 46 roosters, 8 sharpies and 3 huns for the week. we lost a grand total of 2. I see somebody answered the question of which shells I use, Fed Premium 1 3/8s 5s are the ticket at 1500 fps. There was a group out by us from Alabama that was using 7 1/2 shot. According to a local that was with them, they crippled a lot, which just serves to reinforce the point that the correct ammo is critical.

Lead is a natural occurring substance found in our soil. It dissolves very slowly. I dont have time to read that study, but I will take a look at it.

[Ufatz]

Lemme tell ya something fellas, once you shoot some Bismuth or Tungsten stuff you'll never go back to steel. Sure its expensive, but in todays world how many good shots do you get a day? a week? a season. Its all relative. I have hit birds that I would NOT have fired at with steel and the Bismuth smacks them so hard they bounce when I hit them. I know, I know, I've also hit some big ducks hard with steel in the past, but nothing like the new noc-toxics. Economize elsehere and shoot the good stuff. I clobbered a duck last week that nobody else was evening going to shoot at! And after 50+years of shooting I don't take silly sky busting shots either.

Take it for what its worth. My opinion of steel shot has not changed since day one. it is CRAP!

[BLACKJACK]

Last week I had a cat prowling under my birdfeeder, I grabbed my shotgun and loaded it with what was in my vest - 2 steel - and when I paced off the distance from my deck to his carcass it was 42 yards!! Don't tell me steel doesn't do a good job of killing, if it will dust off a cat at 40 yards, it will kill birds also!!!

[Dotch]

Steel deuces on stationary cats at 42 yards is one thing but steel deuces on gooses is another.

[BLACKJACK]

He wasn't stationary, he was running down the trail --- but he couldn't outrun the two shot steel!!!

At forty yards I wouldn't even think of using two shot steel on geese, theres alot of difference between a 6 pound cat and a 16 pound goose, I'd upsize to T or F shot.

[Sartell Angler]

T or F? those sizes are practically obsolete.

The vast majority shoot geese with BB and I agree that it is the ultimate shot size size for geese.

I shoot Fasteel for ducks and this time of year I just use 1 shot...if geese come in I don't bother changing shells because 1 shot will do just fine out to 45 yards or so.

Worked just fine Sunday morning on a couple of BIG geese!

[Flatlander]

1 1/4 oz. steel #4's, out of my Berreta 20ga. o/u- 13 roosters dead, 2 roosters missed and ZERO lost birds. And, my buddies dog, who has the greatest nose I've ever hunted over, will not retrieve a bird. So, I'm chaulking up another zero for birds that were run down and retrieved by superdog.

[BLACKJACK]

Quote:

---

T or F? those sizes are practically obsolete.

---

Until I use up the 6 boxes of F shot that I have in the basement, they're not obsolete!! But I was thinking of using some of the steel BB shot that I have on late season pheasants, just to use it up, its been sitting their a few years....

[walleye vision]

So....has anyone tried Remington or Federal's new non-toxic loads this year? I've only seen the Federal shells in stores (about $2.50/shell). They're expensive, but I'm sick of Steel and want to try something that can maintain it's fps.....There is an article in this month's Wildfowler magazine that has some interesting stats on steel shots performance. It's amazing how fast steel loses its energy, most loads are down to 600fps at 60yds - not much knock down power.

-WV

[Guest]

I dont shoot at birds at 60 yards.. and I am sure not going to pay $2.50 per shell to make an attempt to sky-bust

Thats an expensive lesson.

My #2's at 1550 fps havent been doing a very good job on the northern mallards other than knocking feathers off them at 20 yards... I moved upp to BB's and the birds are falling.

I have been eye-balling some of the non toxics out there at about $25/box of 25. Its still expensive, but so are spent shells that arent dropping armor plated birds.

Non toxics have been on the market long enough, you would think the price should be dropping.

[walleye vision]

That Guy, I don't shoot birds at 60 yards either...just making a point...I dug out that magazine to get the numbers for you guys. Tungsten BB (1500 fps): 916 fps @ 40yds, 600 fps @ 80 yds. Steel BB (1500 fps): 823 fps @ 40 yds, 603 fps @ 67 yds. Steel #4 (1529 fps): 667 fps @ 40 yds, 600 fps @ 47 yds. Unfortunately the didn't compare to lead. You can see that steel slows down pretty quick. If you estimate the numbers for steel #2 (between BB & #4) you could guestimate where it would line up. Another thing the article was saying is that steel shot exits the barrel in a long cigar shape (narrow killing band), whereas lead/bismuth/tungsten leaves the barrel in a wider oval shape - putting more shot on the target at one time (moving target). Just some food for thought.

-WV